Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[SomeRandom]

I’d consider myself a pro-life atheist, but I don’t believe that abortion should be a government issue. It’s between a woman and her doc. Having said that, I have mixed feelings on an ethical level with taking aborted fetuses and using them to ‘help’ existing human life. It seems ethically disingenuous to me. But, I’m not strong on either side of the coin with this topic, but the ethical nature of it is concerning to me.

An aborted fetus is rarely if ever aborted purely for the purpose of medical development. If a fetus is already aborted from whatever circumstance (volantary, miscarriages etc) then why not use their cells? They're not using them, they're already dead! (Okay that sounds really harsh but you know what I mean.) Of course I'm talking about only with the express permission of relatives. No doctor or scientist is going out and convincing mothers to abort just to harvest the dead fetus for cells to help their research. They're using fetus that have already died due to circumstances with permission from the mother.

It's just the same as using the organs of someone who has died and elected (either themselves or by their family) to donate them. This is not valuing one life over another, is it? In both cases someone has already died!!!

 

[Madhuri]

I was under the impression that those negative experiences were actually very rare.

I don't think I ever heard of anyone I know personally having had a significant negative reaction to a vaccine. I would gradly be innoculated thrice as often if it were asked of me.

It seems quite common to me. I've also heard of parents complaining that their babies get really sick, fever and all, after the injections but when they take the baby to the doctor, they're told immediately that it wasn't due to the vaccine. If this is true, and obviously I'm only stating what others have said, then a lot of the negative side effects aren't being recorded.

Even with these cases though, I'm sure that most people do not suffer negative effects.

 

[SomeRandom]

It seems quite common to me. I've also heard of parents complaining that their babies get really sick, fever and all, after the injections but when they take the baby to the doctor, they're told immediately that it wasn't due to the vaccine. If this is true, and obviously I'm only stating what others have said, then a lot of the negative side effects aren't being recorded.

Even with these cases though, I'm sure that most people do not suffer negative effects.

They were probably told that because that's exactly what happened. Doctors know a hell of lot more about the human body and it's ailments than parents fretting about their kids' welfare and usually consumed with the instinct to protect their young rather than logic (and that sometimes includes parents who happen to be Doctors.) Parental instinct often outweighs rational thought, even amongst those who's background lies in Science, since it's one of the strongest instincts we have as human beings.
Not saying that Doctors will necessarily get the diagnosis right every single time and it's entirely possible that a few negative effects of vaccines were in fact wrongly dismissed by Doctors. But until strong evidence comes to light that it absolutely was the vaccines in question, then I will side with the person who has studied in depth human anatomy and medical science rather than with the opinion of layman parents. Sorry.

 

[InChrist]

I think there is a lot more going on than most people realize: such as: double standards, the huge profit-making agendas of pharmaceutical companies, conflict of interest, and bad science concerning the effectiveness and dangers of vaccines, and especially the real threat to your freedom.

 

[psychoslice]

Sorry, but I cannot let ignorant, dangerous rubbish like that pass uncommented.

It couldn't just be the FDA in the US - do you really think that there's a conspiracy within the entire health profession around the whole world pretending that vaccinations work? You may not trust your own FDA, but for that conspiracy to work, it would need to be pretty much every single doctor: are you telling me that all doctors all over the world are lying to us? Why would they? What possible motivation could there be for health professionals to issue vaccines that cause more adverse effects than they cure, not just in the US but *everywhere*?

The research showing autism cannot be related to vaccination comes from many different countries, from governmental, academic and corporate research groups. It simply is not a credible position to hold.

All I can say is don't believe everything your told, of course the FDA are going to protect their ***, can you imagine the law suite against them. just because you are a doctor doesn't mean you know all about vaccines, they only know what need to know and that is how WHO wants it to be, anyway I have my beliefs and you have yours.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think there is a lot more going on than most people realize:

There always is. That's why conspiracy theories get around so easily.

double standards,

Which are?

huge profit-making agendas of pharmaceutical companies

Though they're better than those scam artists who sell the "cure for alcoholism" that's really just repackaged whiskey (yes, that was a real thing).

conflict of interest

Between who?

bad science concerning the effectiveness and dangers of vaccines

Have you looked at the various methodologies for the studies, and tried repeating them yourself?

and especially the real threat to your freedom.

Freedom from... what? Freedom has no general meaning without something to be free from.

 

[psychoslice]

They're preservatives. They stop the culture from dying or being overtaken by some other bacteria.


I have an autoimmune condition. I take imuno-suppressants for it. When I was at the doctor a few years ago, I caught measles from a girl who hadn't been vaccinated. That nearly killed me.

That was only because of your immune system, if you didn't have that problem you probably wouldn't have caught measles, gee I had all the childhood so called diseases, it was just like having a bad cold. Of course some people could die from these disease, but people also die from the flue, it all depends on your immune system at the time you catch theses so called diseases.

 

[psychoslice]

I am sorry for your troubles, but there is no evidence whatsoever for a link between autism and vaccination.

As Nietzsche said, even if there were... preventing polio alone would be reason enough to accept the risk, frankly.

Its a known fact that they didn't get ride of polio, it was already on its way out when they introduced the vaccine.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I think there is a lot more going on than most people realize: such as: double standards, the huge profit-making agendas of pharmaceutical companies, conflict of interest, and bad science concerning the effectiveness and dangers of vaccines, and especially the real threat to your freedom.

I had to stop 40 seconds into this video to comment on the fact that it's crap. High school students have a better understanding on how HIV is and is not transmitted than this idiot, and to be upset that HIV infected individuals aren't kept out of school the same way unvaccinated students are is simply ridiculous.

 

[Riverwolf]

Its a known fact that they didn't get ride of polio, it was already on its way out when they introduced the vaccine.

I've never heard of that "known fact". Source?

 

[psychoslice]

I've never heard of that "known fact". Source?

Well research it, I did.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well research it, I did.

You made the claim, you provide the sources. Give me a reason why I should take it any of it seriously, especially since you earlier relayed the not only nonsensical but frankly offensive claim that vaccines cause autism.

 

[psychoslice]

You made the claim, you provide the sources. Give me a reason why I should take it any of it seriously, especially since you earlier relayed the not only nonsensical but frankly offensive claim that vaccines cause autism.

I have the right to say what I want to say, if you are bothered by that, then do your research look at both sides of the argument, I could easily copy and past info, but why should I, I am not here to try and change your mind, you are entitle to believe what you want to believe.

 

[Deidre]

An aborted fetus is rarely if ever aborted purely for the purpose of medical development. If a fetus is already aborted from whatever circumstance (volantary, miscarriages etc) then why not use their cells? They're not using them, they're already dead! (Okay that sounds really harsh but you know what I mean.) Of course I'm talking about only with the express permission of relatives. No doctor or scientist is going out and convincing mothers to abort just to harvest the dead fetus for cells to help their research. They're using fetus that have already died due to circumstances with permission from the mother.

It's just the same as using the organs of someone who has died and elected (either themselves or by their family) to donate them. This is not valuing one life over another, is it? In both cases someone has already died!!!

Yes, I know...but the conversation swerved into a quasi-discussion about how does one define when life begins...etc.
I have mixed feelings on all of this, it's a grey are for me.

 

[SomeRandom]

Its a known fact that they didn't get ride of polio, it was already on its way out when they introduced the vaccine.

Uhh you do realize that such "fact" is based on twisting correlation to fit a causation. Namely that modern medicine actually made an improvement to survivability of Polio before a vaccination was found. We called it the "Iron Lung." This allowed people who would most almost certainly die of Polio before it's invention to live. Thereby decreasing the death rates before a vaccine came into play. Wow, much Science, right?

 

[Riverwolf]

I have the right to say what I want to say,

Irrelevant.

if you are bothered by that,

By that (meaning your right) I'm not. Are you bothered that I have it, too?

look at both sides of the argument,

That's not how the sciences operate; that's how philosophy operates. Do you know how to do research?

I could easily copy and past info, but why should I

Because you made the claim. Without any backup, the claim is just meaningless hot air that serves no purpose.

It wouldn't bother me, except that I have a personal stake: I'm on the autistic spectrum. As long as this nonsensical and very harmful claim that vaccines cause autism is in mainstream circulation, people on the spectrum will have much more difficulty getting the treatment they need. So I'm going to challenge it wherever I see it. It's also why I questioned your "known fact" about polio.

Besides, you don't "copy/paste info". You make your argument in your own words, and then say where you got your information from with a way for us to check your sources. Why do you think Wikipedia has so many links to places, and notes when statements need citations?

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes, I know...but the conversation swerved into a quasi-discussion about how does one define when life begins...etc.
I have mixed feelings on all of this, it's a grey are for me.

True. When life begins is contentious and a complicated debate.
But that's not what I commented on.
I think even most religious people can agree that once you die, you don't actually specifically need your mortal body anymore. So why the fuss about a Doctor who goes to an already dead fetus and extracts a tiny bit of blood or takes some skin samples? The poor baby is already in heaven, so why care if it looses a small amount of biological material on the part of it's mortal body? That's not valuing any one's life over another's. That's using materials in a quest to save or alleviate pain of potentially thousands of people.
You made it sound like the Doctors harvest the fetus until there's nothing left. That's simply not the case. A person who donates organs will be far more "chopped up" than any dead fetus that has some cells extracted.
I'll put it another way. A family who has fetus that gives some human cells to research has a far easier time having an open coffin funeral than a person who has a relative who donated organs. If you get what I mean?

 

[Poisonshady313]

I have the right to say what I want to say, if you are bothered by that, then do your research look at both sides of the argument, I could easily copy and past info, but why should I, I am not here to try and change your mind, you are entitle to believe what you want to believe.

Have fun contributing to an online message board. However, if you're not prepared to back up a claim you make, especially one that you assert as "known fact", don't expect yourself to be taken seriously, and don't be surprised if you find yourself ignored by many others.

 

[Nietzsche]

That was only because of your immune system, if you didn't have that problem you probably wouldn't have caught measles, gee I had all the childhood so called diseases, it was just like having a bad cold. Of course some people could die from these disease, but people also die from the flue, it all depends on your immune system at the time you catch theses so called diseases.

What the hell do you think a vaccine does? It gives the body a weakened variant of the condition so it knows which antibodies to produce should it ever get the real thing. Immuno-suppressants and all cancer treatments that work tank the immune system, rendering the vaccine less effective(because the body isn't able to produce as many antibodies as it would like). That would not be remotely as big a problem if it weren't for those like you. But because of that people are dying. All of you are collectively responsible.

Look at the rampant disease in Africa & Central Asia. What do those places lack? Vaccines. And if you want to pin the blame on just the terrible conditions, lack of clean water and such, one need look no further than South America. Better conditions, better water, but vaccinations are not widespread. Now, if you look at Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and such you rarely see large swathes of the population get sick. Lifespans have increased since the introduction of vaccines far beyond what one can attribute to simply more to eat.

There is no debate within the medical community on the effectiveness of vaccines. Anti-vaccination nonsense is comparable to the "HIV doesn't cause AIDs" bull****.

 

[LuisDantas]

Its a known fact that they didn't get ride of polio, it was already on its way out when they introduced the vaccine.

Source?