Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[Lighthouse]

Are you aware that we've been doing some forms of vaccination for two centuries? The only difference between now and the smallpox/cowpox vaccines is that we have far greater understanding of what's going on, why it works, so on. Your position is as baseless as the anti-GMO lot. Vaccines and genetic engineering aren't new. They're just far more refined than our ancestors could've dreamed.

Claimed that they were far from being settled and known, which is not baseless.
I agree that our understanding is a bit better, I would hope that it is.

 

[Nietzsche]

Claimed that they were far from being settled and known, which is not baseless.
I agree that our understanding is a bit better, I would hope that it is.

Do you think it's just a coincidence that people have become less and less likely to die of various diseases since we started mass-vaccinations? That various diseases have been rendered nearly extinct, even in countries with horrible sanitation in general, like most of Africa, India, China and the like, the moment we started mass deployment of vaccines?

 

[Lighthouse]

Do you think it's just a coincidence that people have become less and less likely to die of various diseases since we started mass-vaccinations? That various diseases have been rendered nearly extinct, even in countries with horrible sanitation in general, like most of Africa, India, China and the like, the moment we started mass deployment of vaccines?

Less and less people dying? What about the measles vac in the US? No one has died in 10 years from measles and there are over 100 deaths from getting the measles vac. This data can be seen from the CDC and VAERS.
Better sanitation isn't the only role,
When most of those diseases were prevalent, a vast majority didn't die. Surviving and having natural life-long immunity. Genetics and natural immunity. Shall we be thankful for our ancestors help with natural immunity?
Less and less likely to die thanks to learning more about the diseases, with more modern technology we have learned to treat them well, isolate them well, and coupled with the very effective natural effect of "attenuation" for most.
Vaccine effectiveness wanes significantly, I'd imagine the old school ones and relatively new ones that probably caused more diseases and mutations of diseases than getting the disease naturally had even drastically less effectiveness than the few years of effectiveness with significant waning they have today, for those they even work on. More and more clinical evidence is coming out that they aren't even effective as long as they sell them to be, which is small to begin with. One has to wonder how they even passed during clinical trials for effective rates... perhaps tampering results?
Do you think it's a coincidence that since the mass deployment of vaccines, that health conditions of humanity has worsened and has developed all sorts of new stuff or is magical coincidence only biased?
Africa is a mess with unethical and unjust, some forced trials going on and many getting even more sick and dying due to poor immunity as is. Of course the big pharms, governments, and its connections will paint it as cupcakes and rainbows and saving the world.
Same with India, it's not all cupcakes and rainbows. Mutated virus's from oral polio vaccine are showing up in more and more areas, more and more paralysis from vacs. Investigations from India into more unjust and unethical trials being performed. It's just really sad.
China, well, there isn't much historical data as many of these diseases weren't worldwide. But in China, 99% are vaccinated and some diseases are coming back and infecting the fully vaccinated, as they do in every other country showing yet again their lack of effectiveness.

 

[Nietzsche]

Less and less people dying? What about the measles vac in the US? No one has died in 10 years from measles and there are over 100 deaths from getting the measles vac. This data can be seen from the CDC and VAERS.
Better sanitation isn't the only role,
When most of those diseases were prevalent, a vast majority didn't die. Surviving and having natural life-long immunity. Genetics and natural immunity. Shall we be thankful for our ancestors help with natural immunity?
Less and less likely to die thanks to learning more about the diseases, with more modern technology we have learned to treat them well, isolate them well, and coupled with the very effective natural effect of "attenuation" for most.
Vaccine effectiveness wanes significantly, I'd imagine the old school ones and relatively new ones that probably caused more diseases and mutations of diseases than getting the disease naturally had even drastically less effectiveness than the few years of effectiveness with significant waning they have today, for those they even work on. More and more clinical evidence is coming out that they aren't even effective as long as they sell them to be, which is small to begin with. One has to wonder how they even passed during clinical trials for effective rates... perhaps tampering results?
Do you think it's a coincidence that since the mass deployment of vaccines, that health conditions of humanity has worsened and has developed all sorts of new stuff or is magical coincidence only biased?
Africa is a mess with unethical and unjust, some forced trials going on and many getting even more sick and dying due to poor immunity as is. Of course the big pharms, governments, and its connections will paint it as cupcakes and rainbows and saving the world.
Same with India, it's not all cupcakes and rainbows. Mutated virus's from oral polio vaccine are showing up in more and more areas, more and more paralysis from vacs. Investigations from India into more unjust and unethical trials being performed. It's just really sad.
China, well, there isn't much historical data as many of these diseases weren't worldwide. But in China, 99% are vaccinated and some diseases are coming back and infecting the fully vaccinated, as they do in every other country showing yet again their lack of effectiveness.

Do you not know how herd immunity works? Because of people like yourself, who won't (or simply don't) get vaccinated, it allows the virus a viable host. The host means it can stay alive to mutate and find a way around the vaccinated people's immuno-responses. That's all vaccination is, by the by. Giving the immune system a "blueprint" of how to handle a certain disease by introducing said system to a dead or near-dead variant.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You go with the independently corroborated scientific evidence that show the lengths of effectiveness, the waning effectiveness, and the effective rate and it's impossible to accept the doctrine of herd immunity.
It seems that the herd has the same magical thinking, that since they were vaccinated as a child... they are good for life. That they receive a booster down the road and they are good for life. Magical thinking.

It's not a doctrine, it's a fact. Backed by scientific evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Going outside and being hit by a bus is the same as getting vaccinations.... ignorance and not aware of surroundings by making poor choices. There is stupified risk taking and diligent risk taking. Destroyed for lack of unbiased knowledge.
Pursue the goal of better sanitation with the billions of dollars for third world countries.
You keep saying it's because we had vaccines for so long because that's what they tell you to believe. One can easily research their own unbiased side of history and conclude vaccinations aren't the reason and have caused more harm than good.
We aren't free of diseases, once again 1 in 4 children are diagnosed with a disease and many with cancers and all sorts of other diseases since vaccines. Gone are not the days of children dying. If you're an admirer of population control, and getting people sick to treat them with more medicine(evil cyclistic cycle of $ making) that is your choice.
How does this not make sense to you: If you're given a vaccine that is 80-90% effective, there is a 10-20% you're not immune to said disease without even knowing and spouting off how others are dangerous and irresponsible. If you are one of the 80-90%, you are good to go for a few years, with each year the immunity to said disease wearing off significantly. Here comes your teenage years and adult years, still spouting off how others are dangerous and irresponsible while just about all the vaccines pumped into you have completely worn off and you're just as dangerous and irresponsible and identify as part of some herd of cattle myth. Where is the logic and rational thinking behind that besides placebo?
Common sense you cannot seem to see once more: you earlier chose a child with live virus's being around kids in schools, daycare, perhaps anywhere as more safe than a healthy person.
Help me better understand your version of common sense without the mental indoctrination psychologically.

You completely missed the point and/or ignored most of my post to just repeat the same things yet again.

I'll explain it again later when I have more time.

I have to say, your assertions that you alone know the "truth," that others aren't capable of doing proper research (you have no idea who you're talking to) and alluding to conspiracy theories and pseudoscientific ideas give the impression that you believe whatever you read on the internet.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Find out for yourself, there is plenty of information if your game to read it.

How do I know what to read if you don't tell me what childhood diseases you're talking about?
I know which diseases children don't generally contract anymore, thanks to vaccines.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yea, and who are paid to find just what they want then to find, that happens all the time, even the the tobacco industry got what information they wanted to keep their filthy industry clean, but we all now know the truth.

That matters not. What matters most with scientific studies is whether the proper methodology was used.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Elaborate on how so.

The length of immunity wanes, and becomes less effective each year. Take for example the whooping cough /pertussis vaccine without even mentioning many of the others. An estimated 80-90% effective rate as is initially with only a few years worth of effect on the 80-90% it does work on. In other words, most adults are no longer part of the herd myth because their herd tag expired some time ago.

What is your point with this? So people need to get a booster shot for whooping cough later in life. I got one. What's the issue?

I provided a bunch of studies demonstrating the reality of herd immunity. Do you want more?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You go with the independently corroborated scientific evidence that show the lengths of effectiveness, the waning effectiveness, and the effective rate and it's impossible to accept the doctrine of herd immunity.
It seems that the herd has the same magical thinking, that since they were vaccinated as a child... they are good for life. That they receive a booster down the road and they are good for life. Magical thinking.

Who thinks that?

 

[Lighthouse]

Do you not know how herd immunity works? Because of people like yourself, who won't (or simply don't) get vaccinated, it allows the virus a viable host. The host means it can stay alive to mutate and find a way around the vaccinated people's immuno-responses. That's all vaccination is, by the by. Giving the immune system a "blueprint" of how to handle a certain disease by introducing said system to a dead or near-dead variant.

You explain how a vaccine allegedly works, ignorant of how natural anti-bodies work and call it the same as herd immunity. The few wise aren't fooled by deceit.
If you're tying the two together as the same, how is that this blueprint vanishes after a few years and that these vaccinations DO NOT eliminate the SPREAD of diseases from the vaccinated and still call it herd immunity?
You assume too much, you do not know if I'm vaccinated or not.. all you have to do is ask before being a liar.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Already have with SV-40. Still the same thing found in the tumors of cancer today from the millions of people receiving the polio vac back in the day, which was scientifically assured safe. Crap is still found in mankind's genetics.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130522091608/http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/archive/polio_and_cancer_factsheet.htm
[/quote]

From the actual CDC site:

“Some of the polio vaccine administered from 1955 to 1963 was contaminated with a virus called simian virus 40 (SV40). The virus came from the monkey kidney cells used to produce the vaccines. Once the contamination was discovered in the Salk inactivated polio vaccine in use at that time, the U.S. government established requirements for vaccine testing to verify that all new batches of the polio vaccine were free of SV40. Because of research done with SV40 in animal models, there was some concern that the virus could cause cancer. However, evidence suggests that SV40 has not caused cancer in humans.”

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html

For some reason, through common sense... you cannot see all of the once assured safe vaccines recalled, removed, modified, the continuing alteration of them, to this day...
It’s through testing and the production of evidence that drugs and vaccines are modified, recalled, removed, etc. That’s how science works, and it’s the responsible thing to do. I’m not sure why anyone would think that strange.

the 1 in 4 children diagnosed with some disability, all of the new cancers and diseases, and claim these are complete sound scientific medicine.

Where are you getting this number from and what evidence do you have that demonstrates such disabilities are caused by vaccines? As someone else pointed out, vaccines have been in use for almost 200 years at this point.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC452549/

Sounds like the jury is still out.

 

[Lighthouse]

What is your point with this? So people need to get a booster shot for whooping cough later in life. I got one. What's the issue?

I provided a bunch of studies demonstrating the reality of herd immunity. Do you want more?

As just explained, it is a delusional reality. You're doing the same thing as Mr Nietzche... trying to correlate the 2 together when the vaccinated do NOT stop the spread of disease, and that the blueprint disappears after shortly lived.
You also probably have a better shot at dying, developing cancer, or Alzheimer's than a flu-vaccine working.

 

[Lighthouse]

http://web.archive.org/web/20130522091608/http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/archive/polio_and_cancer_factsheet.htm

From the actual CDC site:

“Some of the polio vaccine administered from 1955 to 1963 was contaminated with a virus called simian virus 40 (SV40). The virus came from the monkey kidney cells used to produce the vaccines. Once the contamination was discovered in the Salk inactivated polio vaccine in use at that time, the U.S. government established requirements for vaccine testing to verify that all new batches of the polio vaccine were free of SV40. Because of research done with SV40 in animal models, there was some concern that the virus could cause cancer. However, evidence suggests that SV40 has not caused cancer in humans.”

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html[/QUOTE]

Do you know they are routinely posting, modifying, and removing stuff from their site and there is great research into the SV40 and cancer being performed today? Vaccines free of SV40? That crap is being passed down genetically as children with tumors today have it still. Sv40 has caused cancer in animals, 100% proven and question, are you an animal?

Im glad you have faith in a heavily biased and immense conflict of interest website that will never admit that they at least could have caused cancers in children and folks.

 

[Lighthouse]

The leading cause for magical coincidence: vaccinations.

100% proven to cause mesothelioma, bone, and brain cancer in animals tested on. Transformed normal tissue into cancerous tissue.
Yet, when humans have mesothelioma, bone, and brain cancer... and the tumor's all contain SV-40..... it is "magical coincidence."

 

[Lighthouse]

Who thinks that?

You have faith in mythological herd immunity, so I'd have to imagine that you think just that. I like placebo, it works. If you have great faith in something, keep it. If you truly believe you are lifelong immune and are incapable of spreading disease, and are part of a life saving flock keep that. I'd much rather you be comfortable.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Going outside and being hit by a bus is the same as getting vaccinations.... ignorance and not aware of surroundings by making poor choices.

The point is, life is risky. You’re taking a risk by walking down your stairs in the morning, by walking outside, by driving to work, etc. Almost 1.3 million people die in car crashes every year, while many tens of millions more are injured or disabled. But we all get into our cars and drive to work every day. We do that because we feel that the benefits outweigh the costs, even though we could easily lose our lives. It almost defies common sense, doesn’t it?

Kids aren’t allowed to bring peanut butter to school if even one child in the whole school is allergic to peanuts. Why? Because the cost of that one child potentially losing his/her life outweighs the benefit of the rest of the children being allowed to enjoy peanut butter sandwiches.

The benefits of mass vaccination outweigh the costs of not vaccinating, given that millions of lives are saved by those vaccines and diseases that have been known to cause mass human suffering can be virtually wiped out. Herd immunity works. There can be some very negative side effects for some people, nobody denies that. But incidences of such are quite rare. Vaccines help vastly more people than they hurt.

There is stupified risk taking and diligent risk taking. Destroyed for lack of unbiased knowledge.

Pursue the goal of better sanitation with the billions of dollars for third world countries.

Pouring billions of dollars into vaccines in the Third World saves millions of lives every year. That is demonstrable. Pouring money into better sanitation is also a worthy goal.

You keep saying it's because we had vaccines for so long because that's what they tell you to believe.

Who are “they?” and why do you think they’re talking to me?

One can easily research their own unbiased side of history and conclude vaccinations aren't the reason and have caused more harm than good.

Yes, one can do their own unbiased research if one looks for said research on academic and scientific sites. If one does so, one will find a plethora of evidence indicating that vaccines have caused far more good than harm.

We aren't free of diseases, once again 1 in 4 children are diagnosed with a disease and many with cancers and all sorts of other diseases since vaccines.

Who said we are free of diseases? I said we are free of many of the diseases we have been vaccinating against for many years.

Again, where do you get that number from?

Gone are not the days of children dying. If you're an admirer of population control, and getting people sick to treat them with more medicine(evil cyclistic cycle of $ making) that is your choice.

Again, you misquote me. I didn’t say children don’t die. I said “gone are the days when large amounts of children died before the age of 5 from preventable or curable illnesses.” According to the CDC the infant mortality rate declined greater than 90% from 1915 to 1997.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm

Depending on what part of the world we’re talking about, up until about the second half of the 19th century, anywhere from a quarter to one third of children died before the age of five.
http://www.history.co.uk/study-topics/history-of-death/trends-in-death
http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(10)1175.pdf
https://opentextbc.ca/preconfederation/chapter/childhood-in-a-dangerous-time/

How does this not make sense to you: If you're given a vaccine that is 80-90% effective, there is a 10-20% you're not immune to said disease without even knowing and spouting off how others are dangerous and irresponsible. If you are one of the 80-90%, you are good to go for a few years, with each year the immunity to said disease wearing off significantly.

That is why it’s important for a large amount of the population to be vaccinated; to protect the unprotected and under-protected from contracting the diseases.

I’m sorry, but I don’t think your logic makes very much sense. 80-90% Effectiveness is preferential to 0% effectiveness (from not being vaccinated), is it not? I mean, using your line of reasoning, people shouldn’t bother using condoms given that they’re only effective 98% of the time.

I think I’ve already explained why I feel it’s irresponsible not to vaccinate.

Here comes your teenage years and adult years, still spouting off how others are dangerous and irresponsible while just about all the vaccines pumped into you have completely worn off and you're just as dangerous and irresponsible and identify as part of some herd of cattle myth. Where is the logic and rational thinking behind that besides placebo?

Is there anyone who hasn’t heard of booster shots?

Why do you keep talking about placebo?

Common sense you cannot seem to see once more: you earlier chose a child with live virus's being around kids in schools, daycare, perhaps anywhere as more safe than a healthy person.

Help me better understand your version of common sense without the mental indoctrination psychologically.

I’ve already addressed your “shedding” claim.

I don’t know where you’re pulling this common sense from, but it isn’t making much sense. There’s no mental indoctrination here.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You have faith in mythological herd immunity, so I'd have to imagine that you think just that. I like placebo, it works. If you have great faith in something, keep it. If you truly believe you are lifelong immune and are incapable of spreading disease, and are part of a life saving flock keep that. I'd much rather you be comfortable.

You imagine wrong.

Believing you're immune to disease doesn't make it so.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Do you know they are routinely posting, modifying, and removing stuff from their site and there is great research into the SV40 and cancer being performed today?

Yes, that is the latest version of their site.

Vaccines free of SV40? That crap is being passed down genetically as children with tumors today have it still. Sv40 has caused cancer in animals, 100% proven and question, are you an animal?

I'm not a lab rat, no.

Im glad you have faith in a heavily biased and immense conflict of interest website that will never admit that they at least could have caused cancers in children and folks.

There is no faith required when one is considering evidence. Besides, you're the one who attempted to cite the CDC in the first place. I was merely correcting you. Now you just sound miffed that it doesn't actually confirm what you were saying.[/QUOTE]

 

[SkepticThinker]

As just explained, it is a delusional reality. You're doing the same thing as Mr Nietzche... trying to correlate the 2 together when the vaccinated do NOT stop the spread of disease, and that the blueprint disappears after shortly lived.
You also probably have a better shot at dying, developing cancer, or Alzheimer's than a flu-vaccine working.

Vaccines reduce the spread of disease. That is a demonstrable claim.


http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/174/suppl_11/S16.full
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=209448
https://www.rcpa.edu.au/getattachme...isation-and-Vaccine-Preventable-Diseases.aspx
http://www.unicef.org/immunization/files/SOWVI_full_report_english_LR1.pdf
http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2009/childmortality.aspx
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/369/1645/20130433