Vatican Blasts Trans Surgery, Surogacy, Etc

[ppp]

No.

There ya go.

 

[ppp]

A pope does not have that ability to judge.

I don't see how this connects to what I said. Did you just include me by mistake?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A pope does not have that ability to judge.

He just did judge transgender procedures and surrogacy as "grave violations of human dignity." And, of course, "wrongs" in Christianity are enforced with threats of an angry god who damns people for all eternity.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are expressing strong opinions using words that carry significant emotional weight. The language associated with not caring tends to be more clinical and less personal in nature. But even so, why shouldn't you care about your own positions? Feeling emotions is not a bad thing. It is not a weakness. Maybe you come from an environment where people try to weaponize your feeling against you.


I think that you are being a little hyperbolic. While I have certainly experienced hate before, it tends to require a lot more direct personal interaction with me, and has invariably focused upon the actions of a single individual. I also find hate to be unsustainable for any longer than a week or two. It takes far too much energy and attention.


You keep referring to people who are not members of a given religion who oppose the harmful policies and actions of that religion as though they are doing something unreasonable. As though we should restrict our humanism to only the humans that belong to the demographics to which I belong. That makes no sense to me.

I just don't see the point of getting angry over the teachings of religions I'm not a part of. I left that church and have my own path. I'm not angry about it anymore, and will not be trying to stoke the fires again. The past is the past.

 

[metis]

I don't see how this connects to what I said. Did you just include me by mistake?

It was in response to this that you posted: "Threatening people with torture for non-compliance is violence" as a pope does not have that power.

 

[metis]

He just did judge transgender procedures and surrogacy as "grave violations of human dignity." And, of course, "wrongs" in Christianity are enforced with threats of an angry god who damns people for all eternity.

There's a difference between "grave violations" and "damns people" as the pope doesn't have the ability for the latter.

BTW, I am not a "good Catholic" as there's numerous teachings I disagree with.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There's a difference between "grave violations" and "damns people" as the pope doesn't have the ability for the latter.

BTW, I am not a "good Catholic" as there's numerous teachings I disagree with.

If a civilian says "stop or I'll call the cops" that is a threat. A threat to have not just a higher authority intervene but also a threat to involve someone with an established and long history of reacting violently to things.

 

[ppp]

I just don't see the point of getting angry over the teachings of religions I'm not a part of. I left that church and have my own path. I'm not angry about it anymore, and will not be trying to stoke the fires again. The past is the past.

The attitude that you are espousing is callous disregard. I care about how institutions treat the people that they have power over. This is true of the RCC, the USA or IBM. I don't see leaving as a good reason to stop caring. I think that is inhumane. Obviously we don't agree.

 

[ppp]

It was in response to this that you posted: "Threatening people with torture for non-compliance is violence" as a pope does not have that power.

I don't know why you think that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The attitude that you are espousing is callous disregard. I care about how institutions treat the people that they have power over. This is true of the RCC, the USA or IBM. I don't see leaving as a good reason to stop caring. I think that is inhumane. Obviously we don't agree.

Callous towards who? If you don't like what the Catholic Church teaches or how the Vatican behaves, then leave. Millions around the world have and church attendence is dropping. There's no shunning or anything if you stop going.

 

[metis]

I don't know why you think that.

Because I know Catholic theology and taught it.

 

[ppp]

Callous towards who? If you don't like what the Catholic Church teaches or how the Vatican behaves, then leave. Millions around the world have and church attendence is dropping. There's no shunning or anything if you stop going.

That does not address what I just said. You are either deliberately misinterpreting my words, or so dedicated to your preferred framing that you cannot hear me. May another time

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That does not address what I just said. You are either deliberately misinterpreting my words, or so dedicated to your preferred framing that you cannot hear me. May another time

????

 

[danieldemol]

Surgery and hormones are cosmetic treatments and the people who have them do not receive organs that match what they identify as, even if they may appear more male or female.
I don't think it can be said that any tragedies in people who have not undergone reassignment surgery are due to their not having that surgery.
It would be due to the way they feel about themselves and care of these people in that area, how they manage the way they feel about themselves, is now being seen in more European countries as the best first approach instead of advocating hormone blockers and/or surgery, especially for minors.

I don't think anyone is advocating surgery for minors.
And which European countries see denying gender affirming care such as puberty blockers as the best approach, conservative science denying Christian countries?

 

[danieldemol]

I find it odd that people come into these discussions having read none of the sources.

What makes you think I've read "none" of the sources as opposed to having missed one of them?

This is not tried and tested medicine, it's still very young.

Here is the conclusion from a study:

There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed.

Suicide-Related Outcomes Following Gender-Affirming Treatment: A Review - PMC

Gender-affirming treatment remains a topic of controversy; of particular concern is whether gender-affirming treatment reduces suicidality. A narrative review was undertaken evaluating suicide-related outcomes following gender-affirming surgery, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I believe this would only make it ethical to continue gender affirming care whilst engaging in more methodologically robust studies of it given the generally high degree of approval it appears to have from medical professionals and their associations.

 

[Rival]

What makes you think I've read "none" of the sources as opposed to having missed one of them?

I believe this would only make it ethical to continue gender affirming care whilst engaging in more methodologically robust studies of it given the generally high degree of approval it appears to have from medical professionals and their associations.

Err, like this? Gender medicine ‘built on shaky foundations’, Cass review finds

 

[danieldemol]

Err, like this? Gender medicine ‘built on shaky foundations’, Cass review finds

Your claim was "none" of the sources, so show all sources and demonstrate that I've missed *all* of them please.

 

[Rival]

Your claim was "none" of the sources, so show all sources and demonstrate that I've missed *all* of them please.

Well that's obviously ridiculous.

I'm just showing you a brand new source that came out this week dismantling nearly all of the previous studies as poorly conducted.

It's worth reading.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There's a difference between "grave violations" and "damns people" as the pope doesn't have the ability for the latter.

BTW, I am not a "good Catholic" as there's numerous teachings I disagree with.

The Pope doesn't judge people himself, but he is the Father's head spokesperson on Earth.
In many ways it's like programs aimed at children to scare them into being law abiding citizens by shocking them with the realities of prison and jail and how hard life becomes after you're released. But it's worse than that because this message isn't a miserable stay in the Big House, it's an eternity of torture and anguish without end. Amd Church leaders of mamy denominations issue these mobster-style protection schemes that intimidate and scare with warnings and threats that you don't want the wraith of what will happen if you don't comply.

 

[Brian2]

There ya go.

@ppp said: You are attempting to cite the news coverage of the political and religious movement of which you are a member. You seem to be allergic to primary scientific literature. Do you even know what primary scientific literature is?

@Brian2 said: No.

Sorry I was answering the first question, which is really a statement which tells me what I was attempting to do and which I was denying.
As for what primary scientific literature is, that seems pretty obvious and has nothing to do with my opinion being right or wrong.