Vatican Blasts Trans Surgery, Surogacy, Etc

[YoursTrue]

It's not about sex.
Jesus forgave the adulteress.

Because she was repentant.

 

[ppp]

Sorry I was answering the first question, which is really a statement which tells me what I was attempting to do and which I was denying.

The two citations you provided were literally news services reporting on political and religious convictions. You literally have no clue as to what you are doing. Are you unaware that Forbes and the Guardian are news services? How can you possibly be so oblivious?

 

[YoursTrue]

No, Jesus appointed Peter. Modern popes are chosen by cardinals.

The title "pope" wasn't used until a few centuries later, but the Church always appears to have a leader. Here: Pope - Wikipedia

Oh, ok, thank you for your answer. From closer examination though, I do not infer that Jesus appointed Peter the head of the church.

 

[Brian2]

I don't think anyone is advocating surgery for minors.

Treatment can commence quite early in Australia and it seems that would include surgery probably after puberty blocking meds.
It does depend on the attitude of the parents to it and if parents are not happy it can be taken to the courts to get the treatment approved.
From this lawyer site: What's the age of consent for gender transition in Australia?.
In conclusion, the gender reassignment process can commence at any stage so long as there is consent on the Gillick competence of the adolescent, a diagnosis of gender dysmorphia and a proposed treatment for this. However, without this consent and criteria being satisfied, Court intervention is necessary for treatment to commence in any capacity.

If teens are left to go through puberty, in most cases (about 80%) those who were gender dysmorphic get over it.
Of those allowed to begin treatment early, there is a small percent who end up regretting the treatment.
This could be because the puberty blockers not only halt the bodily transformation but also halt the mental and emotional going through puberty and kids who have been started early on the blockers could end up locked into the whole thing because the chance to grow mentally and emotionally is taken away.
There are also some detrimental and permanent physical side effects that can happen with the blockers and with transitional hormone treatments, and which may be regretted if the treatment is stopped.

So anyway, there are people called transactivists who advocate and want the freedom for anyone of any age to transition socially and physically, even if this can have detrimental effects on people.
Gender affirming does not necessarily mean, people affirming.

And which European countries see denying gender affirming care such as puberty blockers as the best approach, conservative science denying Christian countries?

The science is out and the legislation has been subject over the years to social pressure and inadequate study and the most progressive countries are drawing back on earlier legal decisions.

Increasing Number Of European Nations Adopt A More Cautious Approach To Gender-Affirming Care Among Minors

For several years, Europe has been moving in a different direction from the U.S., as Europeans exercise greater restraint when treating children with gender dysphoria.

www.forbes.com

Ban on children’s puberty blockers to be enforced in private sector in England

CQC will check new guidance in Cass report is applied by private care providers to avoid ‘two-tier’ access to drugs

www.theguardian.com

Legislation has to weigh the good and bad effects. In a debate about such things, it does not help when the science and decisions are clouded by woke cries of biggotry.

 

[Brian2]

The two citations you provided were literally news services reporting on political and religious convictions. You literally have no clue as to what you are doing. Are you unaware that Forbes and the Guardian are news services? How can you possibly be so oblivious?

Yes of course I was aware of that and was showing the news of what is happenning these days in various countries in regard to gender affirming treatments. This also shows that the science is not in and that governing bodies who look at the science are realising that it points to different types of treatment as being more appropriate initially than the puberty blockers and hormones etc.
Was I supposed to go to science reports for such news?

 

[ppp]

Yes of course I was aware of that and was showing the news of what is happenning these days in various countries in regard to gender affirming treatments. This also shows that the science is not in and that governing bodies who look at the science are realising that it points to different types of treatment as being more appropriate initially than the puberty blockers and hormones etc.
Was I supposed to go to science reports for such news?

@Brian2, in the last several posts you have both denied and affirmed that you are only looking at political and religious body. You are a confused mess who does not know their own mind.

I will never, ever look to news, political or religious as authoritative bodies on the nature of reality. Not even if they happen to agree with me. That would be an insane, irrational, and criminal irresponsible thing to do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Err, like this? Gender medicine ‘built on shaky foundations’, Cass review finds

I can go into the full (modern) history of trans care. The procedures and treatment plans amd guidance qnd recommendations have been altered, adjusted amd tweaked for many decades now.
To show it's shaky you must necessarily address how the outcomes used to be so bleak and abysmal that places like John Hopkins closed their trans care programs but got to the point that failed and regretted transitions have become rare and explain why something that has helped many is based on shaky grounds.
It reminds me a lot of those wankers telling people to quit taking their psychiatric medications and rambling about happy pills, how none it really works because it's all in your head and an assortment of big pharma conspiracies while ignoring the reality that those medications have improved the quality of life for legions of people.

 

[danieldemol]

@Brian2
This is what the Australian government has to say about surgery for the purpose of transitioning;
Before being able to access gender affirming surgery, you need to meet the criteria below:

• A history of gender incongruence (for 6 months or more).
• The ability to make a fully informed decision.
• Be over the age of 16 for top surgery, or 18 for bottom surgery. Some surgeons will provide surgery to younger people in very specific situations.
• Ensure that any physical or mental health conditions are well managed.

Source: Gender affirming surgery.

 

[danieldemol]

If teens are left to go through puberty, in most cases (about 80%) those who were gender dysmorphic get over it.

"
One reason many researchers believe it’s unnecessary to delay the social transition of a child is that they don’t think the research on desistance is valid. In other words, they think the number of children who "grow out of" their transgender identity has been vastly overblown.

'The only evidence I have from studies and reports in the literature ... is that not all transgender children will persist in their transgender identity'Thomas Steensma, VU University Medical Center, Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria
This school of thought holds that because the criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (previously called gender identity disorder) was less stringent in the past, the earlier desistance studies included a large cohort of children who today would not be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, gay boys who may have been experimenting with different ways of expressing gender but who were never really transgender in the first place.

“The methodology of those studies is very flawed, because they didn't study gender identity,” said Diane Ehrensaft, director of mental health at UCSF’s Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic. “Those desistors were, a good majority of them, simply proto-gay boys whose parents were upset because they were boys wearing dresses. They were brought to the clinics because they weren't fitting gender norms.”"

Source: The Controversial Research on 'Desistance' in Transgender Youth | KQED

TL : DR? Your 80% figure is on shaky ground in my view.

Of those allowed to begin treatment early, there is a small percent who end up regretting the treatment.

We are talking 1%
"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret."
Source: How common is transgender treatment regret, detransitioning?

That's compared to a regret rate of about 14% for other non-transitioning related surgeries.

 

[danieldemol]

So anyway, there are people called transactivists who advocate and want the freedom for anyone of any age to transition socially

Leaving aside the physical part for a moment I believe trans people should be allowed to socially transition if they express the desire to and can get a letter from a treating medical practitioner.

Bear in mind social transitioning basically just means being allowed to wear clothes of the gender they identify with and being referred to by preferred pronouns according to my understanding.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If teens are left to go through puberty, in most cases (about 80%) those who were gender dysmorphic get over it.

Healthcare providers know this. This is nothing new to people who have actually studied the subject. This is why a medical transition is not something that can be rushed, and why for a long time now it's actually rare for someone to go through genital surgery. It's a delicate issue to treat, and it has been found that making it a longer process has been a key to tremendously reducing the amount of failed and regretted transitions.
Now, to what you mention, this is why puberty blockers are recommended because they are reversible unlike puberty.
This is why it's best to let healthcare providers, medicine and science guide this rather than uneducated laymen who only learned a few things about it recently because RW bungholes have politicized to the Moon and back.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Bear in mind social transitioning basically just means being allowed to wear clothes of the gender they identify with and being referred to by preferred pronouns according to my understanding.

Basically, though I'd refer more to assuming the roles of and living as the identified sex rather than being allowed to wear the clothes of the opposite sex. Freddie Mercury even wore women's jeans but he wasn't trans (he was just very flamboyant and looked better in them than most women). Eddie Izzard wears women's clothes, but a refers to himself as he and an executive transvestite. He likes to do the rough 'n tough boy stuff while looking fabulous.

 

[Brian2]

Healthcare providers know this. This is nothing new to people who have actually studied the subject. This is why a medical transition is not something that can be rushed, and why for a long time now it's actually rare for someone to go through genital surgery. It's a delicate issue to treat, and it has been found that making it a longer process has been a key to tremendously reducing the amount of failed and regretted transitions.
Now, to what you mention, this is why puberty blockers are recommended because they are reversible unlike puberty.
This is why it's best to let healthcare providers, medicine and science guide this rather than uneducated laymen who only learned a few things about it recently because RW bungholes have politicized to the Moon and back.

From what I see puberty blockers tend to keep people in a state of confusion about their gender. If those people were to go through puberty they may be able to grow out of their confusion.
These blockers also can have negative and permanent side effects physically.
It seems that the considered opinion of many Governments has gone from gender affirmation to more of a psychological approach where people are shown that they need not be dysmorphic about their body, and learn to accept what they have.
Then going into hormone transition meds can also produce permanent changes.
And yes it is a political issue and has been for a long time.

 

[Brian2]

Leaving aside the physical part for a moment I believe trans people should be allowed to socially transition if they express the desire to and can get a letter from a treating medical practitioner.

Bear in mind social transitioning basically just means being allowed to wear clothes of the gender they identify with and being referred to by preferred pronouns according to my understanding.

I don't think that anyone needs a letter from a medical person to socially transition unless they are quite young and at school.
I suppose many people would see this as catering to the the misguided ideas of the young.

 

[Brian2]

@Brian2
This is what the Australian government has to say about surgery for the purpose of transitioning;
Before being able to access gender affirming surgery, you need to meet the criteria below:

• A history of gender incongruence (for 6 months or more).
• The ability to make a fully informed decision.
• Be over the age of 16 for top surgery, or 18 for bottom surgery. Some surgeons will provide surgery to younger people in very specific situations.
• Ensure that any physical or mental health conditions are well managed.

Source: Gender affirming surgery.

That sounds like what I posted.
I suppose puberty blockers and hormonal treatment has preceded surgery and the puberty blockers and hormonal treatments are also what concern people and Governments these days, as they see better initial treatments with less potentially harmful side effects.

 

[Brian2]

"
One reason many researchers believe it’s unnecessary to delay the social transition of a child is that they don’t think the research on desistance is valid. In other words, they think the number of children who "grow out of" their transgender identity has been vastly overblown.

'The only evidence I have from studies and reports in the literature ... is that not all transgender children will persist in their transgender identity'Thomas Steensma, VU University Medical Center, Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria
This school of thought holds that because the criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (previously called gender identity disorder) was less stringent in the past, the earlier desistance studies included a large cohort of children who today would not be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, gay boys who may have been experimenting with different ways of expressing gender but who were never really transgender in the first place.

“The methodology of those studies is very flawed, because they didn't study gender identity,” said Diane Ehrensaft, director of mental health at UCSF’s Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic. “Those desistors were, a good majority of them, simply proto-gay boys whose parents were upset because they were boys wearing dresses. They were brought to the clinics because they weren't fitting gender norms.”"

Source: The Controversial Research on 'Desistance' in Transgender Youth | KQED

TL : DR? Your 80% figure is on shaky ground in my view.

It certainly is good to improve the predicting method for those who might or might not desist in their gender identity.
Your article did interestingly state that social transitioning of the young could lead to those children not desisting.
The last part of the KQED article is interesting, "Towards the Non Binary" and I would think that might be a direction medicine and our Western society progress if things go as they have been going.

We are talking 1%
"In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret."
Source: How common is transgender treatment regret, detransitioning?

That's compared to a regret rate of about 14% for other non-transitioning related surgeries.

Yes the percent is low and the better methods for detecting those who might desist and regret could make it lower. Certainly the later the age, the better chance of not regretting.

 

[metis]

The Pope doesn't judge people himself, but he is the Father's head spokesperson on Earth.
In many ways it's like programs aimed at children to scare them into being law abiding citizens by shocking them with the realities of prison and jail and how hard life becomes after you're released. But it's worse than that because this message isn't a miserable stay in the Big House, it's an eternity of torture and anguish without end. Amd Church leaders of mamy denominations issue these mobster-style protection schemes that intimidate and scare with warnings and threats that you don't want the wraith of what will happen if you don't comply.

I've been going to the same parish with my wife for almost 50 years [August], and I have never heard a priest, nor a deacon, put it in those terms. Instead, the emphasis is being "saved". Neither have I heard or read a pope saying it that way.

BTW, I have no belief one way or another in heaven nor hell.

 

[metis]

From closer examination though, I do not infer that Jesus appointed Peter the head of the church.

He did when Jesus asked who they say he is, and Peter's response indicates that he was indeed going to be special. Also, in many cases, sometimes it says "Peter and the others...". Jesus changed his name from "Simon" to "Cephas", which means stone or rock [it does not differentiate the size btw], and name changes often indicated something special about the person.

And if Peter supposedly wasn't the early leader of the Church after Jesus was crucified, then who was? All through early Church history there was such a leader, and that has never stopped.

 

[YoursTrue]

He did when Jesus asked who they say he is, and Peter's response indicates that he was indeed going to be special. Also, in many cases, sometimes it says "Peter and the others...". Jesus changed his name from "Simon" to "Cephas", which means stone or rock [it does not differentiate the size btw], and name changes often indicated something special about the person.

And if Peter supposedly wasn't the early leader of the Church after Jesus was crucified, then who was? All through early Church history there was such a leader, and that has never stopped.

I tend to go over things very slowly in some cases. Peter was outspoken and chosen for certain privileges, including those of accompanying Jesus in his ministry. But we go into the idea of the organization of the early church.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That sounds like what I posted.
I suppose puberty blockers and hormonal treatment has preceded surgery and the puberty blockers and hormonal treatments are also what concern people and Governments these days, as they see better initial treatments with less potentially harmful side effects.

The Cass review has been released on the matter including puberty blockers and hormonal treatments.

A review into how children with gender dysphoria are treated in England has been released. Here's what it means for Australia

There's been a mixed response amongst Australian medical professionals after the release of England's Cass Review into the treatment of children with gender dysphoria. Here's what some of them had to say about the findings.

www.abc.net.au