• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Verifiable evidence for creationism?

Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 85 81.0%

  • Total voters
    105

james bond

Well-Known Member
I had a cousin about the same age as me (less than a year younger than me). He was more active than me, therefore more fitter than I ever was, as he regularly exercised and play sports. He also had better diet, and he never smoke, drink and do drug. He was also happy and content with his career. He was close to parents, siblings and his relatives, and was pretty much in love with his wife. He was also religiously a Christian, with a bit of influences from Taoism and Buddhism from his parents.

And yet being healthy with a very healthy lifestyle, about 15 years ago, he passed away, because stomach cancer killed him.

Now had the cancer being detected earlier, he would probably still be alive today, because it could have been still treatable. By the time they had detected that he had cancer, it was already too late. He seemed to be strong and healthy, until one day he just collapsed. Only then, did he discovered he had cancer, when he was in hospital, and found out that had a disease for months and possibly for some years, and didn't know about it.

My point in all this, Zosimus, that even with a healthy lifestyle, illnesses or diseases can still happen and be a matter of life and death situation, regardless of what you do in life.

I agree that we can all be affected by illnesses, disease, accidents or other negative causes. It does not matter what our beliefs, but I believe that our beliefs helps us deal with the situation. I do not know how your cousin thought, but usually getting rid of one's negative thoughts and behavior and emptying them out daily will help us to cope (one of the teachings of Christianity and many religions). That means accepting our negative illness, disease or whatever in a positive manner. Give thanks to the Lord for my illness. I am ready to accept the joy of death or the joy of continuing life. I would rather choose life and do what I can to improve my condition, but if it is my time, then I am ready to go willingly and I am not afraid. I will make my peace. Death is a transition.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Not really. Bacteria is actually very complex. Evolution cannot create one bacteria as they "claim." Claims are not facts. However, bacteria certainly creates other forms of bacteria. That is natural selection and it is part of creation science even though many are brainwashed into thinking it is evolution. Religious scientist Alfred Russel Wallace presented it, too. Just look at the evidence in this thread that states natural selection proves evolution. Even Darwin admitted he could not create life, so thought he was wrong about evolution. Actually, he was right. Maybe that and natural selection are the only things he got right. Plenty of evidence to show that atheist Darwin was usually wrong. Back to the bacteria reproducing very quickly. Rapid change is part of creation science. It does not take millions or billions of years.
I am not a biologist, and my biology knowledge in the classroom does not extend beyond year 9 high school science, because I went different route in my studies, choosing to study maths, physics and chemistry, because I was more interested in architecture and engineering at that time in high school and beyond. Year 9 science (like that of years 7 & 8) comprised more brief and general knowledge in different branches of science, that include biology, chemistry, physics, earth science, etc, and what they covered in biology didn't involved evolution. The only things they taught us at this level were human and animal anatomy, basic physiology and genetics, but not evolution. Perhaps I would have learn the basic of evolution, had I chosen to take biology subjects in years 10, 11 & 12, I don't know.

After high school, I chosen to do civil engineering (CE), which involved applied science, more specifically in the area of physics, less in chemistry and "almost" zilch in biology. I wrote "almost", there was a bit of biology, because we had to understand a bit about trees, as woods can be materials for building, so we had to know about their physical properties, their strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages and comparing them against other materials, like steel, concrete, etc. There was a bit of biology in CE geology subject, because soil and clay were part of knowledge in foundation; geology in CE, was not just study of rocks.

Much of my knowledge about biology (including evolution) after high school, has been reading biology textbooks, in my free time, in the last 12 years or more.

My point in all this, about revealing my past education is that I don't have qualification in biology or related fields. Biology has spark my interests, mainly because of the forums I have joined (before RF), involved topics like evolution vs creationism.

Although I was versed in bible, including Genesis creation, I was not so versed in evolution. So before I could even discuss or debate anything for or against evolution, I had to understand evolution, so I did a fair amount of reading and research in biology. And though the books I read only give me more general idea of evolution and their mechanisms, they don't make me an expert in evolution or biology.

I can admit my limitations.

But what I do understand is that my quote of your reply, that your own knowledge is perhaps even more limited than mine.

Evolution is not about biologists "creating life", it is about observing and understanding the mechanisms of biological changes in a population(s) over period of time. Here the period of time is regarding to the number of generations, not years. Evolution is a study of biodiversity, not creation of first life.

Your reply to Iron Wizard, clearly demonstrated you are referring to abiogenesis, not evolution. Abiogenesis is study of biochemistry, the study of how life originated, and of how non-living matters can become living matters.

You are right, evolution doesn't create life, but you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what evolution is all about. Evolution is about passing genes that will help the next generations, so they can thrive and evolve and survive. Meaning that life have to already exist, if genes need to be passed, from one generation to the next. There have to be ancestors as well descendents, to notice any change.

Evolution is not about life created from nothing.

Natural Selection is about how environmental factors in their habitat can affect changes in life, not only physical appearances, but at genetic or cellular levels. Environmental factors, meaning like their geographical location and terrains (eg Arctic region, temperate zone, jungle, desert, etc), climate, and on availability or scarcity of food, water or other natural resources.

That's what clearly you don't understand.

Charles Darwin was never interested in creating new life, so what you were arguing with Iron Wizard is straw man and wrong.

During Darwin's journey in HMS Beagle, in the 1830s, he wrote down and drew all that he was able to observe - plants, animals, humans, geology, etc, and taking samples with him, before returning to England.

Perhaps, the most interesting observation in his journey, was teaming life on the islands of Galápagos. What he noticed was that species on one island may differ considerably species in the next island. I think the most telling observation of animals are that of Galápagos tortoises.

Why is one species of tortoises are small, with domed shells, short legs and necks, exist in one island, but the neighbouring island have giant tortoises, with saddle-shape shells, and have longer legs, and longer and more flexible necks.

The answer is the islands themselves encourage changes to occur, or else they would die out.

On one island, the climate is more humid and soil are different, allowing growth of vegetation that are low enough for the smaller dome-shaped tortoises to feed on leaves. These tortoises don't need long necks and legs.

On the other island, the climate is drier, and the terrain more rocky. The leaves on vegetation on this island, is higher off the ground. The tortoises not only needs to grow larger, but they need genes which they can have longer legs and necks, that will allow them reach food that their smaller cousins could reach. The smaller tortoises must have died out on this island, leaving only the fitter tortoises - the giant tortoises - to thrive here.

And when biologists talk about "fitness", they are not about strength. Biologists are talking about how species can survive in one habitat, but die out in a different habitat.

This is what Natural Selection attempt to explain. These two species of tortoises, on two different islands, are just one example of Natural Selection, hence evidences for evolution.

Look up "Galápagos tortoises" in Wikipedia, and see pictures of different types of tortoises that lived on the islands.

No where does Darwin talk of creating life out of nothing, hence all you are doing is sprouting straw man nonsenses that have nothing to do with evolution.

Gene Flow (GF) is another mechanism in evolutionary biology, where environmental factors or forces are not involved in changes. GF occurred when another population of species are introduced to the existing population in that location, causing genes to be passed on the next generations, that belong to different species. Essentially, the descendants are hybrid of two different species.

Again, GF here is not about creating life from nothing.

Mutation, is yet another mechanism in evolution. This too don't involve creating life from nothing. It involved one to pass the mutated gene to the next generation.

Life have to already exist for genes to pass from one generation to the next, and that's true for all mechanisms of evolutionary biology.

My suggestion to you is to read and do little research of what evolution actually say than what it doesn't say. You are clearly get this straw man from creationist website, and not from credible peer review sources.
 
Last edited:

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I am not a biologist, and my biology knowledge in the classroom does not extend beyond year 9 high school science, because I went different route in my studies, choosing to study maths, physics and chemistry, because I was more interested in architecture and engineering at that time in high school and beyond. Year 9 science (like that of years 7 & 8) comprised more brief and general knowledge in different branches of science, that include biology, chemistry, physics, earth science, etc, and what they covered in biology didn't involved evolution. The only things they taught us at this level were human and animal anatomy, basic physiology and genetics, but not evolution. Perhaps I would have learn the basic of evolution, had I chosen to take biology subjects in years 10, 11 & 12, I don't know.

After high school, I chosen to do civil engineering (CE), which involved applied science, more specifically in the area of physics, less in chemistry and "almost" zilch in biology. I wrote "almost", there was a bit of biology, because we had to understand a bit about trees, as woods can be materials for building, so we had to know about their physical properties, their strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages and comparing them against other materials, like steel, concrete, etc. There was a bit of biology in CE geology subject, because soil and clay were part of knowledge in foundation; geology in CE, was not just study of rocks.

Much of my knowledge about biology (including evolution) after high school, has been reading biology textbooks, in my free time, in the last 12 years or more.

My point in all this, about revealing my past education is that I don't have qualification in biology or related fields. Biology has spark my interests, mainly because of the forums I have joined (before RF), involved topics like evolution vs creationism.

Although I was versed in bible, including Genesis creation, I was not so versed in evolution. So before I could even discuss or debate anything for or against evolution, I had to understand evolution, so I did a fair amount of reading and research in biology. And though the books I read only give me more general idea of evolution and their mechanisms, they don't make me an expert in evolution or biology.

I can admit my limitations.

But what I do understand is that my quote of your reply, that your own knowledge is perhaps even more limited than mine.

Evolution is not about biologists "creating life", it is about observing and understanding the mechanisms of biological changes in a population(s) over period of time. Here the period of time is regarding to the number of generations, not years. Evolution is a study of biodiversity, not creation of first life.

Your reply to Iron Wizard, clearly demonstrated you are referring to abiogenesis, not evolution. Abiogenesis is study of biochemistry, the study of how life originated, and of how non-living matters can become living matters.

You are right, evolution doesn't create life, but you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what evolution is all about. Evolution is about passing genes that will help the next generations, so they can thrive and evolve and survive. Meaning that life have to already exist, if genes need to be passed, from one generation to the next. There have to be ancestors as well descendents, to notice any change.

Evolution is not about life created from nothing.

Natural Selection is about how environmental factors in their habitat can affect changes in life, not only physical appearances, but at genetic or cellular levels. Environmental factors, meaning like their geographical location and terrains (eg Arctic region, temperate zone, jungle, desert, etc), climate, and on availability or scarcity of food, water or other natural resources.

That's what clearly you don't understand.

Charles Darwin was never interested in creating new life, so what you were arguing with Iron Wizard is straw man and wrong.

During Darwin's journey in HMS Beagle, in the 1830s, he wrote down and drew all that he was able to observe - plants, animals, humans, geology, etc, and taking samples with him, before returning to England.

Perhaps, the most interesting observation in his journey, was teaming life on the islands of Galápagos. What he noticed was that species on one island may differ considerably species in the next island. I think the most telling observation of animals are that of Galápagos tortoises.

Why is one species of tortoises are small, with domed shells, short legs and necks, exist in one island, but the neighbouring island have giant tortoises, with saddle-shape shells, and have longer legs, and longer and more flexible necks.

The answer is the islands themselves encourage changes to occur, or else they would die out.

On one island, the climate is more humid and soil are different, allowing growth of vegetation that are low enough for the smaller dome-shaped tortoises to feed on leaves. These tortoises don't need long necks and legs.

On the other island, the climate is drier, and the terrain more rocky. The leaves on vegetation on this island, is higher off the ground. The tortoises not only needs to grow larger, but they need genes which they can have longer legs and necks, that will allow them reach food that their smaller cousins could reach. The smaller tortoises must have died out on this island, leaving only the fitter tortoises - the giant tortoises - to thrive here.

And when biologists talk about "fitness", they are not about strength. Biologists are talking about how species can survive in one habitat, but die out in a different habitat.

This is what Natural Selection attempt to explain. These two species of tortoises, on two different islands, are just one example of Natural Selection, hence evidences for evolution.

Look up "Galápagos tortoises" in Wikipedia, and see pictures of different types of tortoises that lived on the islands.

No where does Darwin talk of creating life out of nothing, hence all you are doing is sprouting straw man nonsenses that have nothing to do with evolution.

Gene Flow (GF) is another mechanism in evolutionary biology, where environmental factors or forces are not involved in changes. GF occurred when another population of species are introduced to the existing population in that location, causing genes to be passed on the next generations, that belong to different species. Essentially, the descendants are hybrid of two different species.

Again, GF here is not about creating life from nothing.

Mutation, is yet another mechanism in evolution. This too don't involve creating life from nothing. It involved one to pass the mutated gene to the next generation.

Life have to already exist for genes to pass from one generation to the next, and that's true for all mechanisms of evolutionary biology.

My suggestion to you is to read and do little research of what evolution actually say than what it doesn't say. You are clearly get this straw man from creationist website, and not from credible peer review sources.

Darwin did speculate that all life came from an original common ancestor. For atheist macro evolutionists, abiogenesis must be the culprit. I guess there are creationist, macro evolutionists, I personally haven't met any. So, for an atheist evolutionist of any stripe, the story has to begin with abiogenesis. Many creationists, like me, are micro evolutionists. Certainly organisms can adapt because of a variety of factors, but always within the species. Darwins diverse finches, were all finches. As to your assertion that two different species can hybridize, I don't think so, and I would ask for you to produce an example. Not sub species, species.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Viruses and viroids fall on one side or the other depending upon the criteria, but it's for sure they weren't the first life forms, because as far as I know, they need a complete cell host to reproduce themselves. .. Rain fell on the rock for billions of years, we are the result of water runoff from rock. Do you buy that ?
Kindly get more information on the subject. It is easily available on internet:

"Prokaryotes have diversified greatly throughout their long existence. The metabolism of prokaryotes is far more varied than that of eukaryotes, leading to many highly distinct prokaryotic types. For example, in addition to using photosynthesis or organic compounds for energy, as eukaryotes do, prokaryotes may obtain energy from inorganic compounds such as hydrogen sulfide. This enables prokaryotes to thrive in harsh environments as cold as the snow surface of Antarctica, studied in cryobiology or as hot as undersea hydrothermal vents and land-based hot springs.

Prokaryotes live in nearly all environments on Earth. Some archaea and bacteria thrive in harsh conditions, such as high temperatures (thermophiles) or high salinity (halophiles). Organisms such as these are referred to as extremophiles. Many archaea grow as plankton in the oceans. Symbiotic prokaryotes live in or on the bodies of other organisms, including humans."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote#Environment

We are the result of, not the rain runoff from a rock but from somewhere in the crevices of snow or hydrothermal vents in ocean.
 
Last edited:

gnostic

The Lost One
For atheist macro evolutionists, abiogenesis must be the culprit.
There is no such thing as macro evolutionist, shmogie.

Evolution is evolution, regardless if it is "micro-" or "macro-" evolution. Biologists don't and shouldn't distinguish between micro and macro.

And evolution is not atheism in any shape or form. Evolution is no more atheism than it is theism; it is biology. It is silly creationist like yourself who refused to recognise that there are many Jews, Christians and Hindus who accept evolution as the accepted explanation for evolutionary changes, and not this stupid macro versus micro rubbish.

Charles Darwin himself was a Christian for most of his life, though he had leaning towards agnosticism.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Not really. Bacteria is actually very complex. Evolution cannot create one bacteria as they "claim." Claims are not facts. However, bacteria certainly creates other forms of bacteria. That is natural selection and it is part of creation science even though many are brainwashed into thinking it is evolution. Religious scientist Alfred Russel Wallace presented it, too. Just look at the evidence in this thread that states natural selection proves evolution. Even Darwin admitted he could not create life, so thought he was wrong about evolution. Actually, he was right. Maybe that and natural selection are the only things he got right. Plenty of evidence to show that atheist Darwin was usually wrong. Back to the bacteria reproducing very quickly. Rapid change is part of creation science. It does not take millions or billions of years.

Where do you get the notion that creationists think we have not changed since creation. We have changed for the worse and then better and then worse. First was Adam's sin which plagued us all. We went from perfection to imperfection over time. We still admire perfection in nature and human race as evidence of longing for the past. The next major event was Jesus' death which gave us a chance to be saved from the downward spiral. It became worse since Noah's flood, but we still can live a relatively long time and get the most out of our lives while we are here. Moses came later to give us the standards.

It's an interesting theory of yours about humans. Care to expand your thinking? My thinking is some will progress to healthier and longer lives and maximize their longevity, but we will not be as healthy as our original ancestors or live as long.
The word 'bacteria' is plural. One is called a bacterium.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
There is no such thing as macro evolutionist, shmogie.

Evolution is evolution, regardless if it is "micro-" or "macro-" evolution. Biologists don't and shouldn't distinguish between micro and macro.

And evolution is not atheism in any shape or form. Evolution is no more atheism than it is theism; it is biology. It is silly creationist like yourself who refused to recognise that there are many Jews, Christians and Hindus who accept evolution as the accepted explanation for evolutionary changes, and not this stupid macro versus micro rubbish.

Charles Darwin himself was a Christian for most of his life, though he had leaning towards agnosticism.
Since there is no clear, universally-accepted definition of the word "species," it is not possible to determine whether macro-evolution, defined as evolution that creates a new species, occurs.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as macro evolutionist, shmogie.

Evolution is evolution, regardless if it is "micro-" or "macro-" evolution. Biologists don't and shouldn't distinguish between micro and macro.

And evolution is not atheism in any shape or form. Evolution is no more atheism than it is theism; it is biology. It is silly creationist like yourself who refused to recognise that there are many Jews, Christians and Hindus who accept evolution as the accepted explanation for evolutionary changes, and not this stupid macro versus micro rubbish.

Charles Darwin himself was a Christian for most of his life, though he had leaning towards agnosticism.

Please reread my post. I stated clearly that belief in evolution is not a factor between atheism/deism I am a silly creationist because you didn't read what I wrote ? The micro/macro "rubbish" are clear distinctions in the US, perhaps you should expand your research a little. I see you contend that species, is not clearly defined, so you cannot provide an example of what you say occurred. Try genus, does that help ? Seems pretty well defined to me
Kindly get more information on the subject. It is easily available on internet:

"Prokaryotes have diversified greatly throughout their long existence. The metabolism of prokaryotes is far more varied than that of eukaryotes, leading to many highly distinct prokaryotic types. For example, in addition to using photosynthesis or organic compounds for energy, as eukaryotes do, prokaryotes may obtain energy from inorganic compounds such as hydrogen sulfide. This enables prokaryotes to thrive in harsh environments as cold as the snow surface of Antarctica, studied in cryobiology or as hot as undersea hydrothermal vents and land-based hot springs.

Prokaryotes live in nearly all environments on Earth. Some archaea and bacteria thrive in harsh conditions, such as high temperatures (thermophiles) or high salinity (halophiles). Organisms such as these are referred to as extremophiles. Many archaea grow as plankton in the oceans. Symbiotic prokaryotes live in or on the bodies of other organisms, including humans."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote#Environment

We are the result of, not the rain runoff from a rock but from somewhere in the crevices of snow or hydrothermal vents in ocean.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Please reread my post. I stated clearly that belief in evolution is not a factor between atheism/deism I am a silly creationist because you didn't read what I wrote ? The micro/macro "rubbish" are clear distinctions in the US, perhaps you should expand your research a little. I see you contend that species, is not clearly defined, so you cannot provide an example of what you say occurred. Try genus, does that help ? Seems pretty well defined to me
There is no such thing as macro evolutionist, shmogie.

Evolution is evolution, regardless if it is "micro-" or "macro-" evolution. Biologists don't and shouldn't distinguish between micro and macro.

And evolution is not atheism in any shape or form. Evolution is no more atheism than it is theism; it is biology. It is silly creationist like yourself who refused to recognise that there are many Jews, Christians and Hindus who accept evolution as the accepted explanation for evolutionary changes, and not this stupid macro versus micro rubbish.

Charles Darwin himself was a Christian for most of his life, though he had leaning towards agnosticism.
Please reread my post. I stated clearly that belief in evolution is not a factor between atheism/deism I am a silly creationist because you didn't read what I wrote ? The micro/macro "rubbish" are clear distinctions in the US, perhaps you should expand your research a little. I see you contend that species, is not clearly defined, so you cannot provide an example of what you say occurred. Try genus, does that help ? Seems pretty well defined to me

re Prokaryotes, So, what is your point ? Are you contending that these are the result of abiogenesis ? Prove it then. We are the result of thermal vents and snow runoff ? I have no doubt you BELIEVE this, have FAITH that this occurred. However, your belief and faith are irrelevent, evidence is what is required. A statement on wikepedia is not evidence
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Generally, Wikipedia is good evidence. If any statement is not correct it will soon be corrected. It is written, vetted by specialists in the field.

"The first living organism with 'artificial' DNA was produced by scientists at the Scripps Research Institute as E. coli was engineered to replicate an expanded genetic alphabet.

A completely synthetic genome was produced by Craig Venter, and his team introduced it to genomically emptied bacterial host cells, and allowed the host cells to grow and replicate."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology#Synthetic_life
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Since there is no clear, universally-accepted definition of the word "species," it is not possible to determine whether macro-evolution, defined as evolution that creates a new species, occurs.
Wrong.

Biologists all around the world, accept species, subspecies, genus, family, etc.

Just because creationists don't accept species, but you have to remember, creationists are not biologists. Heck, there are no credible scientists among them.

All creationists advocate is there strict interpretation of their creation myths, and such myths are even less than pseudoscience, because Genesis creation and Islamic creation are nothing more than make-believe fairytales.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
re Prokaryotes, So, what is your point ? Are you contending that these are the result of abiogenesis ? Prove it then. We are the result of thermal vents and snow runoff ? I have no doubt you BELIEVE this, have FAITH that this occurred. However, your belief and faith are irrelevent, evidence is what is required. A statement on wikepedia is not evidence
The only people accepting faith, are those creationists who accept Genesis creation and flood, which neither happen the way it say.

And the Book of Job, where the sick tyrant called God supposedly answered Job, with bunch of verses that are nothing more than superstition rubbish, and explain nothing scientifically. All the passages just show are questions that a person, like the author of JOB, couldn't possibly answer, but it make up stuff that have no basis in reality.

Can stars really "sing"? (38:7)
Are hail and snow stored in "storehouse"? (38:22)
Are there really "doors" to shut the sea? (38:8)
Does it mean that every time we hear thunder, is really his voice we are hearing? (40:9)

Science can explain hail and snow, the tides of seas and oceans, without resorting to nonsense I am reading from JOB.

If God was real, and this is how he explain the act of nature, then God is as ignorant and as superstitious as the author who wrote JOB.

Like I said, creationists believed in superstition, which is the core of their blind faith.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
For atheist macro evolutionists, abiogenesis must be the culprit. I guess there are creationist, macro evolutionists, I personally haven't met any. So, for an atheist evolutionist of any stripe, the story has to begin with abiogenesis.
Atheists could be wrong about abiogenesis without being wrong about evolution, so you really are talking about two different arguments.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The only people accepting faith, are those creationists who accept Genesis creation and flood, which neither happen the way it say.

And the Book of Job, where the sick tyrant called God supposedly answered Job, with bunch of verses that are nothing more than superstition rubbish, and explain nothing scientifically. All the passages just show are questions that a person, like the author of JOB, couldn't possibly answer, but it make up stuff that have no basis in reality.

Can stars really "sing"? (38:7)
Are hail and snow stored in "storehouse"? (38:22)
Are there really "doors" to shut the sea? (38:8)
Does it mean that every time we hear thunder, is really his voice we are hearing? (40:9)

Science can explain hail and snow, the tides of seas and oceans, without resorting to nonsense I am reading from JOB.

If God was real, and this is how he explain the act of nature, then God is as ignorant and as superstitious as the author who wrote JOB.

Like I said, creationists believed in superstition, which is the core of their blind faith.

Hmmm, so literary alliteration is unfamiliar to you ? Do you believe Job to be a work of science, or literature ? Here is a major myth, held by blind faith, by many. Once upon a time the universe created itself from nothing. on one of the rocks created from nothing, some how, some way, just the right way, under perfect circumstances, life created itself from a slush of chemicals. This life, tiny and insignificant, in its slush of unknown chemicals, was able to eat, flourish and breed. Miraculously, as it bred, it self created swimming things that swam in a warm peaceful sea, replacing where all their needs were met. They were unhappy though, they were tired of being wet all the time, so they crawled out of the sea, and made themselves lizards, and amphibians, and rats and lions, some got too fat and had to go back swimming again. They eventually became people. This was long, long ago, and the juju is gone. Living things don't create themselves from chemicals anymore. Snakes don't become dogs anymore. Elvis has left the building
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Generally, Wikipedia is good evidence. If any statement is not correct it will soon be corrected. It is written, vetted by specialists in the field.

"The first living organism with 'artificial' DNA was produced by scientists at the Scripps Research Institute as E. coli was engineered to replicate an expanded genetic alphabet.

A completely synthetic genome was produced by Craig Venter, and his team introduced it to genomically emptied bacterial host cells, and allowed the host cells to grow and replicate."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology#Synthetic_life
Yes
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Wrong.

Biologists all around the world, accept species, subspecies, genus, family, etc.
Irrelevant and misleading. The question is not whether biologists "accept" species (whatever you mean by accept) but whether there is a clear, objective and universally-accepted definition of the word.

From http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_41

"...species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions....

"That definition of a species might seem cut and dried, but it is not — in nature, there are lots of places where it is difficult to apply this definition. For example, many bacteria reproduce mainly asexually. The bacterium shown at right is reproducing asexually, by binary fission. The definition of a species as a group of interbreeding individuals cannot be easily applied to organisms that reproduce only or mainly asexually.

"Also, many plants, and some animals, form hybrids in nature. Hooded crows and carrion crows look different, and largely mate within their own groups — but in some areas, they hybridize. Should they be considered the same species or separate species?"

I'd also like to know exactly how you determine whether two fossils are the same species using the biological species concept outlined above.

Just because creationists don't accept species, but you have to remember, creationists are not biologists. Heck, there are no credible scientists among them.

All creationists advocate is there strict interpretation of their creation myths, and such myths are even less than pseudoscience, because Genesis creation and Islamic creation are nothing more than make-believe fairytales.
The word species simply means "kind." A simple look at https://books.google.com.pe/books?i...EIGjAA#v=onepage&q="especie de carro"&f=false shows the phrase "Especie de carro pequeño," which literally translates as "a species of small car." Surely we realize that the translation from the Latin language Spanish into the Germanic language English would better express that phrase as "a kind of small car" or "a type of small car." English is, after all, not a Romance language. You may argue, of course, that species has a special definition in a scientific or biological context. Fine – supply the definition.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Atheists could be wrong about abiogenesis without being wrong about evolution, so you really are talking about two different arguments.
First of all, it entirely depends on what you mean by evolution. Assuming that your definition of evolution is similar to the neo-Darwinism theory, which includes the theory of common descent, abiogenesis is essential to this argument.

For example, if it could be proved that abiogenesis cannot occur, then neo-Darwinism fails immediately.
Conversely, if it could be proved that abiogenesis is so common that it has occurred multiple times in the past, one would be hard pressed to claim that all life shares a common ancestor.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Wrong.

Biologists all around the world, accept species, subspecies, genus, family, etc.

Just because creationists don't accept species, but you have to remember, creationists are not biologists. Heck, there are no credible scientists among them.

All creationists advocate is there strict interpretation of their creation myths, and such myths are even less than pseudoscience, because Genesis creation and Islamic creation are nothing more than make-believe fairytales.

Weird. Where did you ever come up with the idea that creationists don't accept the concept of a species ? "Genesis creation is nothing more than make believe fairytales" You ought to be able to prove that fairly easily. A provable counter theory would go a long way. "No credible scientists among them " Now you are putting your total ignorance on display for all to see. How about Nobel prize winners ? How about professors at many prestigious Universities ? How about Astronomers, Physicists, Biologists, Micro biologists, Cosmologists, Physicians, Geologists and more ? What turnip truck did you fall out of ? "Strict interpretation of their creation myths". That is a statement that says absolutely nothing about anything. I suggest you rethink it, then post a cogent interpretation of what you are trying to say. I further suggest that before you express stupidity, you at least do some research first. It truly harms the credibility of your personal way of thinking
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I am not a biologist, and my biology knowledge in the classroom does not extend beyond year 9 high school science, because I went different route in my studies, choosing to study maths, physics and chemistry, because I was more interested in architecture and engineering at that time in high school and beyond. Year 9 science (like that of years 7 & 8) comprised more brief and general knowledge in different branches of science, that include biology, chemistry, physics, earth science, etc, and what they covered in biology didn't involved evolution. The only things they taught us at this level were human and animal anatomy, basic physiology and genetics, but not evolution. Perhaps I would have learn the basic of evolution, had I chosen to take biology subjects in years 10, 11 & 12, I don't know.

After high school, I chosen to do civil engineering (CE), which involved applied science, more specifically in the area of physics, less in chemistry and "almost" zilch in biology. I wrote "almost", there was a bit of biology, because we had to understand a bit about trees, as woods can be materials for building, so we had to know about their physical properties, their strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages and comparing them against other materials, like steel, concrete, etc. There was a bit of biology in CE geology subject, because soil and clay were part of knowledge in foundation; geology in CE, was not just study of rocks.

Much of my knowledge about biology (including evolution) after high school, has been reading biology textbooks, in my free time, in the last 12 years or more.

My point in all this, about revealing my past education is that I don't have qualification in biology or related fields. Biology has spark my interests, mainly because of the forums I have joined (before RF), involved topics like evolution vs creationism.

Although I was versed in bible, including Genesis creation, I was not so versed in evolution. So before I could even discuss or debate anything for or against evolution, I had to understand evolution, so I did a fair amount of reading and research in biology. And though the books I read only give me more general idea of evolution and their mechanisms, they don't make me an expert in evolution or biology.

I can admit my limitations.

But what I do understand is that my quote of your reply, that your own knowledge is perhaps even more limited than mine.

Evolution is not about biologists "creating life", it is about observing and understanding the mechanisms of biological changes in a population(s) over period of time. Here the period of time is regarding to the number of generations, not years. Evolution is a study of biodiversity, not creation of first life.

Your reply to Iron Wizard, clearly demonstrated you are referring to abiogenesis, not evolution. Abiogenesis is study of biochemistry, the study of how life originated, and of how non-living matters can become living matters.

You are right, evolution doesn't create life, but you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what evolution is all about. Evolution is about passing genes that will help the next generations, so they can thrive and evolve and survive. Meaning that life have to already exist, if genes need to be passed, from one generation to the next. There have to be ancestors as well descendents, to notice any change.

Evolution is not about life created from nothing.

Natural Selection is about how environmental factors in their habitat can affect changes in life, not only physical appearances, but at genetic or cellular levels. Environmental factors, meaning like their geographical location and terrains (eg Arctic region, temperate zone, jungle, desert, etc), climate, and on availability or scarcity of food, water or other natural resources.

That's what clearly you don't understand.

Charles Darwin was never interested in creating new life, so what you were arguing with Iron Wizard is straw man and wrong.

During Darwin's journey in HMS Beagle, in the 1830s, he wrote down and drew all that he was able to observe - plants, animals, humans, geology, etc, and taking samples with him, before returning to England.

Perhaps, the most interesting observation in his journey, was teaming life on the islands of Galápagos. What he noticed was that species on one island may differ considerably species in the next island. I think the most telling observation of animals are that of Galápagos tortoises.

Why is one species of tortoises are small, with domed shells, short legs and necks, exist in one island, but the neighbouring island have giant tortoises, with saddle-shape shells, and have longer legs, and longer and more flexible necks.

The answer is the islands themselves encourage changes to occur, or else they would die out.

On one island, the climate is more humid and soil are different, allowing growth of vegetation that are low enough for the smaller dome-shaped tortoises to feed on leaves. These tortoises don't need long necks and legs.

On the other island, the climate is drier, and the terrain more rocky. The leaves on vegetation on this island, is higher off the ground. The tortoises not only needs to grow larger, but they need genes which they can have longer legs and necks, that will allow them reach food that their smaller cousins could reach. The smaller tortoises must have died out on this island, leaving only the fitter tortoises - the giant tortoises - to thrive here.

And when biologists talk about "fitness", they are not about strength. Biologists are talking about how species can survive in one habitat, but die out in a different habitat.

This is what Natural Selection attempt to explain. These two species of tortoises, on two different islands, are just one example of Natural Selection, hence evidences for evolution.

Look up "Galápagos tortoises" in Wikipedia, and see pictures of different types of tortoises that lived on the islands.

No where does Darwin talk of creating life out of nothing, hence all you are doing is sprouting straw man nonsenses that have nothing to do with evolution.

Gene Flow (GF) is another mechanism in evolutionary biology, where environmental factors or forces are not involved in changes. GF occurred when another population of species are introduced to the existing population in that location, causing genes to be passed on the next generations, that belong to different species. Essentially, the descendants are hybrid of two different species.

Again, GF here is not about creating life from nothing.

Mutation, is yet another mechanism in evolution. This too don't involve creating life from nothing. It involved one to pass the mutated gene to the next generation.

Life have to already exist for genes to pass from one generation to the next, and that's true for all mechanisms of evolutionary biology.

My suggestion to you is to read and do little research of what evolution actually say than what it doesn't say. You are clearly get this straw man from creationist website, and not from credible peer review sources.

First, bravo for reading up on biology and showing initiative to learn on your own. Your claim that I have even more limited knowledge of biology than you probably is true. I am a computer scientist by trade, but I, too, have read biology and what evolution is all about here -- evolution.berkeley.edu . This is where I get the basis for my evolution arguments. I, too, like most people learned the theories of evolution, although not directly, in my physical science classes and my social science ones. Evolution encompasses a lot. My foundation for the physical sciences starts as, "If it smells it's chemistry. If it crawls, it's biology. If it doesn't work, it's physics." From that, I've added my own, "If it's wrong, then it's evolution." From the online course on evolution, evolution is more than biology -- http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/history_01 .

The "islands themselves encourage changes" comments are natural selection. While it is part of evolution, it is also part of creation science. Religious scientist Alfred Russel Wallace came up with the same theory, only Dawin supposedly got it published first and thereby not plagiarized. Both are credited with their "separate" works. Moreover, I do not think Wikipedia is a great source for discussing creation vs evolution. Their sources are fine, but the site is lacking in accuracy. As a general rule of thumb, students should not use Wikipedia as a source to write papers. They would fail with their papers if I was teaching a class and a student did that, and rightly so.

Darwin questioned his theories himself because he could not create life. He based his work on the books, writings, talks with Charles Lyell and uniformitarianism, or the view that the forces affecting the universe are the same now as at any time in the past. Lyell became a promoter of the Theory of Evolution (ToE). Darwin was influenced by Lyell and started with this foundation is his young life. The view of uniformitarianism is wrong, and the battle for creation vs evolution that goes on today are from these presuppositions. In opposition, the creation scientists have proposed catastrophism or the theorythat massive catastrophes occurred in earth's past, substantially altering the Earth and its life via mountain uplift, rapid deposition, and mass extinctions. All of this happens rapdly. Lyell, in turn, was influenced by atheist James Hutton who wrote his theories about earth and published in 1795. Prior to this we knew science and was under the baliwick of the Catholic church. Science and the scientific method was started to show God's great works. From Hutton, Lyell and Darwin, the arguments against creation continued in the 1800s until the Scopes trial in 1925. The battle between creation and evolution has become a legal battle for the teaching of our young minds throughout the world. This is what's at stake.

So, I've shown that you are wrong in your presuppositions that creation science is based on a straw man and creationist websites. To the contrary, science and the scientific method started with Christianity.

As for gene flow, it can be reduced or absent by the presence of barriers such as impassable mountain ranges, canyons, oceans or other large bodies of water, extensive deserts and so on. Then, the two populations may go to diverge to the point that members of a population can not interbreed successfully with members of the other.

Creating life from nothing has to do with creating the basic building blocks of protein which occurs within a single-cell. This cannot be be done outside the cell, so evolutionists have failed although they have tried and continue to fail. All they can do is gmo or take life that is existing and modify it. BTW gmo is not safe although atheist scientists promote it. People are allergic to some of the gmo foods and products. This warning comes from creation scientists.

You mentioned mutation. Mutation is negative or neutral. It is never positive except in comics books or movies and such as the X-Men. Where is the evidence that mutation is positive and explains evolution?

So, instead of wasting time looking down your nose at me, maybe you should read some better books and articles to get your facts straight.
 
Top