Verifiable evidence for creationism?

[gnostic]

You were saying in your earlier posts with SkepticalThinker that people don't need to see doctors if they were ill or suffering diseases, and shouldn't be taking prescribed medicine as long as they have healthy lifestyle, eg eat proper diet and exercise regularly.

My example with my cousin is that he did fall prey to disease despite having healthy lifestyle.

The doctors might have able to save him, if they had detected his cancer earlier and had the treatment required.

 

[Zosimus]

You were saying in your earlier posts with SkepticalThinker that people don't need to see doctors if they were ill or suffering diseases, and shouldn't be taking prescribed medicine as long as they have healthy lifestyle, eg eat proper diet and exercise regularly.

My example with my cousin is that he did fall prey to disease despite having healthy lifestyle.

The doctors might have able to save him, if they had detected his cancer earlier and had the treatment required.

You have failed to establish that your cousin had a healthy lifestyle.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I had a cousin about the same age as me (less than a year younger than me). He was more active than me, therefore more fitter than I ever was, as he regularly exercised and play sports. He also had better diet, and he never smoke, drink and do drug. He was also happy and content with his career. He was close to parents, siblings and his relatives, and was pretty much in love with his wife. He was also religiously a Christian, with a bit of influences from Taoism and Buddhism from his parents.

And yet being healthy with a very healthy lifestyle, about 15 years ago, he passed away, because stomach cancer killed him.

Now had the cancer being detected earlier, he would probably still be alive today, because it could have been still treatable. By the time they had detected that he had cancer, it was already too late. He seemed to be strong and healthy, until one day he just collapsed. Only then, did he discovered he had cancer, when he was in hospital, and found out that had a disease for months and possibly for some years, and didn't know about it.

My point in all this, Zosimus, that even with a healthy lifestyle, illnesses or diseases can still happen and be a matter of life and death situation, regardless of what you do in life.

My grandfather spent the better part of his life doing everything possible to live a healthy lifestyle and avoid getting cancer. Same thing as your cousin - he didn't smoke, do any drugs, barely drank, kept up on all the latest health research, etc. He died last week from prostate cancer that had moved into his bones. By the time he realized anything was wrong, it was already too late and the cancer had spread too far (he was also a person who avoided doctor's visits as much as possible). So yeah, sometimes we can do everything we can to prevent illness and yet it happens anyway.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You have failed to establish that your cousin had a healthy lifestyle.

Who cares? Are you under the impression that people who live healthy lifestyles never have health problems?

 

[Sapiens]

Who cares? Are you under the impression that people who live healthy lifestyles never have health problems?

Jim Fixx: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx

 

[shmogie]

No. The evolution of organisms that reproduce very quickly such as bacteria is already verifiable evidence that validates the theory of evolution. Creationists will often say that this only states that evolution happens on a small level. Well, that pretty much invalidates creationism. Evolution is a concept present on anything with genetic material. It's caused by natural selection. Any species that is mortal and can reproduce (every species) evolves. Organisms change over time. Creationists believe that we were all placed here and haven't changed since our alleged creation. Well, over such a long period of time since the Earth was formed, large scale evolution had to happen.

Do I think humans will further evolve? No. We will actually go backwards. Our technology has prevented natural selection from affecting us very much.

What theory of evolution ? Most Creationists are micro evolutionists, that is we believe that species can and do change as a result of environment or other factors within their species. We do not believe that one species can change into another, and macro evolutionists have extreme difficulty in proving this , I don't believe they do . Non theists must adopt the the concept of abiogenesis, which has never been observed, never been replicated, and apparently is not at all understood. "Well, over such a long period of time since the earth was formed large scale evolution had to happen" Really ? What is "large scale evolution " ? " Had to happen" is than an appeal to chance ? Do you believe the universe is eternal, and everything that could happen, has happened ? How many times would a hurricane have to go through a field of bauxite and iron, before it assembled a a 747 ?

 

[McBell]

...which has never been observed, never been replicated, and apparently is not at all understood...

Oh, just like creation....

 

[Sapiens]

What theory of evolution ? Most Creationists are micro evolutionists, that is we believe that species can and do change as a result of environment or other factors within their species. We do not believe that one species can change into another, and macro evolutionists have extreme difficulty in proving this , I don't believe they do . Non theists must adopt the the concept of abiogenesis, which has never been observed, never been replicated, and apparently is not at all understood. "Well, over such a long period of time since the earth was formed large scale evolution had to happen" Really ? What is "large scale evolution " ? " Had to happen" is than an appeal to chance ? Do you believe the universe is eternal, and everything that could happen, has happened ? How many times would a hurricane have to go through a field of bauxite and iron, before it assembled a a 747 ?

I really thought you had learned a lesson concerning spreading misinformation and lies. It seems you just took few days off to lick you wounds and psych yourself up into an amnesiac coma.

Anyway:

Most Creationists are micro evolutionists, that is we believe that species can and do change as a result of environment or other factors within their species. We do not believe that one species can change into another, and macro evolutionists have extreme difficulty in proving this , I don't believe they do . Non theists must adopt the the concept of abiogenesis, which has never been observed, never been replicated, and apparently is not at all understood. "Well, over such a long period of time since the earth was formed large scale evolution had to happen" Really ? What is "large scale evolution " ? - CB902, CB050

Well, over such a long period of time since the earth was formed large scale evolution had to happen. - "Large Scale Evolution is a term of your own invention with no definition. Is that your preparation for giving up arguing against macroevolution as you did against microevolution?

Had to happen" is than an appeal to chance ? Do you believe the universe is eternal, and everything that could happen, has happened ? How many times would a hurricane have to go through a field of bauxite and iron, before it assembled a a 747 ? - CF002.1

 

[SkepticThinker]

.

This is more of an emotional statement of personal belief than something that is backed up by something real that I can address.

First of all, it’s a statement that corrects your assertion that I can’t properly read your posts. Clearly I can.


Secondly, you really think it’s “an emotional statement of personal belief” that testing something for safety and efficacy before making it available for human consumption is the responsible route to take? This isn’t something real that should be addressed?

.

Most of this testing to determine toxicity levels does not occur in humans. It is considered unethical to poison humans to determine at what point a medication becomes toxic. This type of research is often carried out on animals and, as I've already pointed out, 92 percent of those studies are worthless because as soon as people start doing testing in humans, the reaction to the drug is substantially different.

It does actually occur in humans, in Phase I and Phase III clinical trials (a small group is used in Phase I while a much larger group is used in Phase III). That’s after it was first tested on animals in preclinical testing stages.

.

This is not impossible, but I can't think of an example right off the top of my head. Are you referring to bacterial infection or something else?

How about diabetes, Parkinson’s disease, ALS, cystic fibrosis, cancer, strep throat (any number of infections), asthma, COPD, arthritis, hemophilia, multiple sclerosis, HIV/AIDS, to name a few.

.

Hair splitting. As I said, doctors make mistakes and those mistakes can be fatal.

We’re talking about the importance of testing drugs for safety and efficacy before we prescribe them to people. The people who are killed as a result of “medical malpractice” died due to hospital or doctor errors (e.g. a doctor or hospital acting “negligently’). That’s a wholly different claim than the one that drug treatments kill people, and it doesn’t speak to the safety or efficacy of drugs and why they should be tested before being prescribed to people.


But let’s say that “medical treatment” is the third leading cause of death (i.e. people are dying from merely taking drugs created to treat their ailment) – wouldn’t that be an argument that we need MORE clinical testing rather than less?

.

This scientific scrutiny you're talking about is a myth. About half of all clinical trials are never published. Pharmaceutical companies tend to publish those results that show that their medication works and is safe while downplaying or supressing RCTs that don't support their drug. That's the point of movements such as http://www.alltrials.net/news/the-story-of-the-campaign-thats-changing-the-world/

It’s not a myth.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/services/ctphases.html
http://www.fda.gov/ForPatients/Approvals/Drugs/ucm405622.htm
http://www.cancer.ca/en/cancer-info...l-trials/phases-of-clinical-trials/?region=on
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abo...clinical-trials-are/phases-of-clinical-trials
http://www.centerwatch.com/clinical-trials/overview.aspx
https://www.australianclinicaltrials.gov.au/what-clinical-trial/phases-clinical-trials
http://www.phrma.org/innovation/clinical-trials
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Clinical-trials/Pages/Takingpart.aspx
https://clinicaltrials.gov/
https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=949

I don’t know where you got your numbers, but it’s slightly less than a third that don't end up published. There is always room for improvement and the system isn’t perfect.

My one and only point is that it is dangerous and irresponsible NOT to test drugs that are potentially going to be prescribed to people to treat their ailments. It is even more dangerous and irresponsible just to hand out these drugs to people to people to test for themselves.

 

[shmogie]

I really thought you had learned a lesson concerning spreading misinformation and lies. It seems you just took few days off to lick you wounds and psych yourself up into an amnesiac coma.

Anyway:

Most Creationists are micro evolutionists, that is we believe that species can and do change as a result of environment or other factors within their species. We do not believe that one species can change into another, and macro evolutionists have extreme difficulty in proving this , I don't believe they do . Non theists must adopt the the concept of abiogenesis, which has never been observed, never been replicated, and apparently is not at all understood. "Well, over such a long period of time since the earth was formed large scale evolution had to happen" Really ? What is "large scale evolution " ? - CB902, CB050

Well, over such a long period of time since the earth was formed large scale evolution had to happen. - "Large Scale Evolution is a term of your own invention with no definition. Is that your preparation for giving up arguing against macroevolution as you did against microevolution?

Had to happen" is than an appeal to chance ? Do you believe the universe is eternal, and everything that could happen, has happened ? How many times would a hurricane have to go through a field of bauxite and iron, before it assembled a a 747 ? - CF002.1

He,he,he,he' Do you know what quotation marks are ? Apparently not. Think, I know you can, in a rudimentary way, at least
. Wait, maybe I am wrong, I have my doubts now. Your job, if you decide to accept it surly ocean boy, is to learn why those quotation marks were used, lol. goodness I must have put some turpentine on that weak and inadequate ego of yours, do you think that has anything to do with your current confusion ? I made no argument, I asked a two questions and made a statement. I have seen your photo, is English not your first language ? That would certainly explain much. Like a case of herpes, which I am told, keeps on giving, you pop up again. To your ad hominem pee wee, "misinformation and lies"<<<< HINT QUOTATION MARKS, Well, you don't understand simple relativity, time/space dilation, else why would you condemn it as misinformation ? Dr Schroeder has a DOUBLE PhD, in earth sciences and nuclear physics, people with double doctorates can write their name Dr. Surly Ocean Boy PhD, though most do not, including Dr. Schroeder. Since English is not your strong suit, let me explain, a SINGLE PhD can only write his name, Dr. Blowhard Ocean Boy, or Muhammed Maninwetsuit, PhD. Now you, being the instant internet intellectual, ought to look this up, I bet there is confirmation, that you can find within your short attention span So, that leaves my "lies and misinformation" to be stating that Dr. Schroeder was at MIT for 7 years, instead of 5. I read 7 from a preface in one of his books, if I am wrong, then mea culpa

 

[Sapiens]

He,he,he,he' Do you know what quotation marks are ? Apparently not. Think, I know you can, in a rudimentary way, at least
. Wait, maybe I am wrong, I have my doubts now. Your job, if you decide to accept it surly ocean boy, is to learn why those quotation marks were used, lol. goodness I must have put some turpentine on that weak and inadequate ego of yours, do you think that has anything to do with your current confusion ? I made no argument, I asked a two questions and made a statement. I have seen your photo, is English not your first language ? That would certainly explain much. Like a case of herpes, which I am told, keeps on giving, you pop up again. To your ad hominem pee wee, "misinformation and lies"<<<< HINT QUOTATION MARKS, Well, you don't understand simple relativity, time/space dilation, else why would you condemn it as misinformation ? Dr Schroeder has a DOUBLE PhD, in earth sciences and nuclear physics, people with double doctorates can write their name Dr. Surly Ocean Boy PhD, though most do not, including Dr. Schroeder. Since English is not your strong suit, let me explain, a SINGLE PhD can only write his name, Dr. Blowhard Ocean Boy, or Muhammed Maninwetsuit, PhD. Now you, being the instant internet intellectual, ought to look this up, I bet there is confirmation, that you can find within your short attention span So, that leaves my "lies and misinformation" to be stating that Dr. Schroeder was at MIT for 7 years, instead of 5. I read 7 from a preface in one of his books, if I am wrong, then mea culpa

About time that you admitted one of your lies, now ... how about the others?

 

[shmogie]

About time that you admitted one of your lies, now ... how about the others?

I see, my swarthy friend, You admit you didn't understand the concept of a double doctorate, nor the fundamentals of space time dilation, good for you. However, another problem has arisen. Now , it seems, you don't understand what quotation marks are used for, nor the concept of reading a thread. Please, for your own credibility, jump on the internet and clarify these things in your mind. As to my other "lies". Frankly, I don't know what you are referring to. A lie, at least at law, is having the knowledge and acceptance of the TRUTH, but yet saying something contrary to the TRUTH. You see ? probably not, I'll have to explain. If I believed Schroeder was at MIT for 7 years, I can't tell a lie if he was there for 5. I had a reasonable basis for believing he was there for 7. Should I have checked further ? Perhaps.

 

[Zosimus]

My grandfather spent the better part of his life doing everything possible to live a healthy lifestyle and avoid getting cancer. Same thing as your cousin - he didn't smoke, do any drugs, barely drank, kept up on all the latest health research, etc. He died last week from prostate cancer that had moved into his bones. By the time he realized anything was wrong, it was already too late and the cancer had spread too far (he was also a person who avoided doctor's visits as much as possible). So yeah, sometimes we can do everything we can to prevent illness and yet it happens anyway.

Did your grandfather eat only kosher meat?

 

[Zosimus]

Jim Fixx: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx

All indications are that Jim Fixx died from overhydration, a problem that often leads to magnesium depletion. Inadequate levels of magnesium often lead to heart attack. Popular sports drinks such as Gatorade, Sporade, or Powerade do not contain magnesium. Some 68% of Americans do not consume the recommended daily intake of magnesium.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Non theists must adopt the the concept of abiogenesis, which has never been observed, never been replicated, and apparently is not at all understood.

You are short on Biology. Better study some more before claiming things.

"Relatively short RNA molecules have been artificially produced in labs, which are capable of replication. Such replicase RNA, which functions as both code and catalyst provides its own template upon which copying can occur. Jack W. Szostak has shown that certain catalytic RNAs can join smaller RNA sequences together, creating the potential for self-replication." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#RNA_synthesis_and_replication

Also http://www.bacterio.net/-classifphyla.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaea

 

[Zosimus]

Secondly, you really think it’s “an emotional statement of personal belief” that testing something for safety and efficacy before making it available for human consumption is the responsible route to take?

Yes.

It does actually occur in humans, in Phase I and Phase III clinical trials (a small group is used in Phase I while a much larger group is used in Phase III). That’s after it was first tested on animals in preclinical testing stages.

Said testing is a waste of time and money.

How about diabetes, Parkinson’s disease, ALS, cystic fibrosis, cancer, strep throat (any number of infections), asthma, COPD, arthritis, hemophilia, multiple sclerosis, HIV/AIDS, to name a few.

Adult onset diabetes is caused by iron overload. Stomach bypass cures diabetes 2. Not coincidentally, stomach bypass operations result in extreme bleeding and often result in massive iron loss and anemia in those treated. The same result can be achieved by avoiding all meat that contains heme iron (vegetarianism, kosher meat), frequent blood donations (reduces iron load), or chelation therapy.

Parkinson's Disease is related to inadequate levels of circulating vitamin D. Diabetes is also a risk factor for Parkinson's, and we've already discussed how diabetes can be prevented and/or cured.

ALS, like other neurological diseases, is related to inadequate levels of vitamin D.

Cystic fibrosis is heredetary and incurable. Resveratrol, a molecule that occurs naturally in red wine, has been shown to be of great beneft.

Cancer is related to iron overload. Diabetes is a major risk factor for cancer, perhaps not coincidentally since both are related to excess iron. IP6, a natural molecule that removes excess iron, has been shown to halt cancer growth. This has been known since 2006, and so far I don't know of any human trials underway. Ketogenic diets halt and/or reverse cancer growth. Metformin, a pharmaceutical that prevents the liver from synthesizing glucose, has been shown to reduce the risk of cancer (and possibly treat it). Obviously, metformin would work extremely well with a ketogenic diet. Reveratrol, a naturally occuring molecule, is more effective than metformin.

Really, I could go on and on. Asthma is related to magnesium deficiency. COPD is related to smoking and/or asbestos. However, I doubt that any of this is convincing you.

But let’s say that “medical treatment” is the third leading cause of death (i.e. people are dying from merely taking drugs created to treat their ailment) – wouldn’t that be an argument that we need MORE clinical testing rather than less?

No. It's an argument that people need to trust their doctors less and to take more responsibility for their own treatment and recovery. Most doctors received their training decades ago and cannot keep up to date on the latest and best treatments.

 

[james bond]

If you pursue your train of assumption you quickly fall into the infinite regression trap. Parsimony is the logical way out and that points to abiogenesis and then evolution.

Ha ha. Parsimony points to creation science coming out on top. Abiogenesis has been a failure and should be rendered pseudoscience.

Carl Sagan, the atheist scientist, thought this experiment would show how protein gets created during the 70s. However, atheists are usually wrong.

 

[shmogie]

You are short on Biology. Better study some more before claiming things.

"Relatively short RNA molecules have been artificially produced in labs, which are capable of replication. Such replicase RNA, which functions as both code and catalyst provides its own template upon which copying can occur. Jack W. Szostak has shown that certain catalytic RNAs can join smaller RNA sequences together, creating the potential for self-replication." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#RNA_synthesis_and_replication

Also http://www.bacterio.net/-classifphyla.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaea

RNA isn't life. RNA artificially produced, produced by intelligent design, a creator isn't a result of any natural process. No where in nature has this been observed. The alleged chemical makeup of the primordial soup cannot be known, nor the environmental conditions. Actually, a primitive cell that can replicate has been created, after 10 years work of approx. 50 scientists in extremely controlled conditions,with tons of equpment and many labs, so what, it ain't natural. Wikepedia, hum, a wonderful science source. . YOUR mission, should you decide to accept it, is to show how DNA assembled itself, in the perfect order to create a living, entity, with all the information required to nourish itself, expel waste matter, work ( all closed systems "work") and reproduce, in a hostile environment. Better hit that wikepedia real hard. Good luck. You are short on biology. Better study some more before claiming things

 

[shmogie]

Did your grandfather eat only kosher meat?

I am not getting into your conversation, but an observation. My father drank, smoked, ate whatever he wanted, never went to a doctor, was of the generation that considered formal exercise insane, and lived a full life to age 93 in total control of his faculties. In fact, the last 5 years of his life he ate virtually nothing but ice cream and bacon and eggs. Genetics is a very powerful influence

 

[McBell]

RNA isn't life. RNA artificially produced, produced by intelligent design, a creator isn't a result of any natural process. No where in nature has this been observed. The alleged chemical makeup of the primordial soup cannot be known, nor the environmental conditions. Actually, a primitive cell that can replicate has been created, after 10 years work of approx. 50 scientists in extremely controlled conditions,with tons of equpment and many labs, so what, it ain't natural. Wikepedia, hum, a wonderful science source. . YOUR mission, should you decide to accept it, is to show how DNA assembled itself, in the perfect order to create a living, entity, with all the information required to nourish itself, expel waste matter, work ( all closed systems "work") and reproduce, in a hostile environment. Better hit that wikepedia real hard. Good luck. You are short on biology. Better study some more before claiming things

One wonders if you can show how "GodDidIt"?