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Verifiable evidence for creationism?

Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 85 81.0%

  • Total voters
    105

Sapiens

Polymathematician
lol, you certainly are not a Cosmologist. Schoreder
and neither are you. You do not even appear to be versed at all in any of the sciences.
So you agree that for whatever reason, a human, or any other established systems do not get better, they can only get worse.
No, that's the worst indefensible crap. CB102 in talkorigins.
I notice you didn't address the alleged first life forms. How did they keep from degrading ? Natural selection is not the answer. Of course there is the problem of proper DNA sequencing, where did the information come from in those first DNA strandsthat (sic)
also CB102 in talkorigins.
You certainly ARE NOT a cosmologist.
Never claimed to be. BTW, what was the highest level physics course you took?
What you are however is a superficial thinker, enamored with your own set rigid view and, like the child you appear to be, you respond to a challenge that you cannot handle by dumb efforts to degrade and disparage what is presented.
It would appear that my "efforts" to falsify what you are attempting to flog has been quite effective. But then I've been doing this for a long time and you've just begun to learn the basics. I could easily argue your side far more effectively than you have.
Na na nanna your mother wears combat boots.
Maybe, but she lso was a physician who organized the baby lift our of Saigon and was nominated for a Pulitzer. What did your mama ever do?
I suppose in your hyper inflated ego, and superficial knowledge, you condemn what I posted, apparently not knowing you condemn Einsteins theory of general relativity.
You are just a scientific name dropper who doesn't know what he is talking about. Here's Schroeder's wiki entry:

Education


Schroeder received his BSc in 1959, his MSc in 1961, and his PhD in nuclear physics and earth and planetary sciences in 1965, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT).[2] He worked five years on the staff of the MIT physics department.

If you bothered to read the piece by Perakh (the full professor with 300 publications) you should note that, according to him, Schroeder misunderstood Eisenstein.

Perakh said:
Of course, to apply this rigorously defined situation to the creation of the universe according to the Bible requires a considerable stretch of imagination. To satisfy the requirements of the special theory of relativity, as per Schroeder's explanation, we have to accept that, first, God is a physical body, second, that it is a body which occupies a certain localized volume in space, and third, to imagine that, during the six days of creation, the Creator was rushing at an enormous speed past the universe he was creating. What would then remain from the concept of the omnipresent non-material God? God performing a marathon - this picture might have been satisfactory for Schroeder's eight-year old son. For those over eight years of age, a better choice seems to be relegating the six-days creation story back to the realm of faith.
Even you, in your imaginary superiority are not that stupid, or are you ?
Obviously I am not. Obviously you misunderstand relativity. So I really must riposte with your question, are you ?
Or is it that you simply cannot grasp the concepts ?
You seem to the the odd man out here, support falsified concepts.
I vote for the former..
At this stage is you vote of any import except to you and perhaps your mama?
Like all pseudo intellectuals, when you cannot deal with the message, you attack the messenger..You knew nothing of Schroeder before my post, did you ?
Why would I, he is a fringe kook and you are his disciple. So what?
The internet is a wonderful thing, and I can see you surfing and surfing the internet to learn what you could about him, and most importantly to find what you could to impeach him.
Took me all of ten seconds. If he is that easy to falsify, he is not much.
I see, his "presuppositional" ( you even make up your own words, did you mean prepositional ?) stance disqualifies him.
No I mean exactly what I said. Here's wiki once again: Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldview.

Perhaps you should research prior to bloviation?
Well if that is the case, then 75% of scientists, one way, or another, are disqualified.
How do you figure that?
Sorry, but your hasty surfing led you astray, he holds a double PhD ( perhaps it is a new idea for you ?) and taught 7 years at MIT.
Sorry, see above.
You are probably too young to remember Professor Irwin Corey, the worlds foremost authority on everything, You could give him a subject, any subject, and by spouting pure nonsense, he would sound authoritative. I am convinced you are channeling him, or have studied him. Bravo, the master would be proud of you. No more pearls for you, you aren';t capable of dealing with them. Oink back to your mud hole and contemplate how you are king, of the mud hole. Adieu
I remember Corey well. Did you know that he was also a golden-gloves boxer?
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
The second law says established systems will always break down over time. Your reference re the development of a child is not relevant. A human is the established system, from conception till death. A human certainly descends into chaos from conception till death, cells cease to function properly, bones become brittle and break, organs are impaired, the person dies. Never does a person continue getting stronger, , developing more effective kidneys, liver, lungs, heart continuously as she ages. Nope, she dies. A perfect example of the second law of thermodynamics.
You are mischaracterizing the second law of thermodynamics. It does not forbid the reduction of entropy in one particular part of a system (the formation of a hailstone, for example), only the reduction of entropy in a closed system as a whole. The biosphere is not a closed system. By your reasoning, the second law would make it impossible for a child to ever be in a better state of health than their mother was at the time of their conception. A mother with osteoporosis, heart problems or brain defects would always give birth to children with the same or worse problems. It would also be impossible for humans to heal from wounds or to recover from illness. Such isn't the case.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
...Lets see, you contend that Schroeder has a PhD in "physics and earth sciences" My, oh my, those two subjects are always included in a single graduate degree. So, anyone who has degree in one of those disciplines only has half a degree, right ? Ah, wiki, that premier source for lazy internet intellectuals. I will take his CV over your impeccable source.
Here it is, from Schroeder's personal website ( http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=2 ):

"This was followed by five years on the staff of the MIT physics department prior to moving to Israel, where he joined the Weizmann Institute of Science and then the Volcani Research Institute, while also having a laboratory at The Hebrew University. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics."

Hmm:

Five years, not seven.

Staff, not faculty,

One degree, not more.

I think that rather clearly illustrates just how accurate your posts are and just how seriously we should take you. You don't know the truth when you trip over it. You can't even get simple facts straight, how can anyone trust your interpretation of things that require intellectual discernment?
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
...

The second law says established systems will always break down over time. Your reference re the development of a child is not relevant. A human is the established system, from conception till death. A human certainly descends into chaos from conception till death, cells cease to function properly, bones become brittle and break, organs are impaired, the person dies. Never does a person continue getting stronger, , developing more effective kidneys, liver, lungs, heart continuously as she ages. Nope, she dies. A perfect example of the second law of thermodynamics. Your proposal that this whatever living thing, the result, of chemical reaction from non living things, just gets better and better over time, morphing into a massive variety of complicated organisms, can't happen according to that second law. Lets call that first life form a cell, it is an established system, it has to be to survive, how can it become an even more complicated system, when the second law says it can do only one thing, descend into chaos and die ? Yes I concede happily that the universe is 15 billion years old, depending upon your perspective. I will be discussing this in depth elsewhere in this thread, please follow it there and of course feel free to chime in. I am a one finger typist, and don't want to go through the agony of typing duplicate explanations and responses
Here is an interesting alternative to your narrow and erroneous view: https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Here it is, from Schroeder's personal website ( http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=2 ):

"This was followed by five years on the staff of the MIT physics department prior to moving to Israel, where he joined the Weizmann Institute of Science and then the Volcani Research Institute, while also having a laboratory at The Hebrew University. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics."

Hmm:

Five years, not seven.

Staff, not faculty,

One degree, not more.

I think that rather clearly illustrates just how accurate your posts are and just how seriously we should take you. You don't know the truth when you trip over it. You can't even get simple facts straight, how can anyone trust your interpretation of things that require intellectual discernment?
I ask again, Can one have a PhD in physics, and one in earth sciences, with both disciplines rolled into one degree ? how many dissertations, one, or two ? How many years would one take on average, compared to the average student doing a PhD in physics ? I have two degrees in two different disciplines, If I were to continue and get my PhD, could I roll those two disciplines into one degree ? Now you may simply be imagining that earth sciences and physics are the same. See what you can find out from wiki on that. Of course, one doesn't address him as Dr.Dr., just Dr. Is that what is throwing you ? "can't get simple facts straight" ? You produced a lot of folderol about "Christian apologetics" totally ignorant of the fact he is a Jew. You are a relativity genius, why didn't you just prove what I posted was wrong ? I mean, with your understanding of the theory, it would have only taken a paragraph, Instead you whine, blabber, and spew your ad hominem dull barbs. Why is that, one wonders ? Could all of your primping, popping and peeing be just a smokescreen because you know what I posted was right ? That supposition, of course, requires you to understand what was posted. On second thought, I withdraw the supposition. Whenever one starts talking of "we" I know he knows he is on shaky ground. Do you have a little man in your pocket ? Are you half of cojoined twins ? Do you have a special dispensation to speak for the members of the forum ? No, you feel intellectually threatened, and this is a ploy to bolster your own ego with the added weight of others making yourself more authoritative. You also want to isolate your antagonist, hoping that you speaking for the entire forum will have brought shame upon him. I hope you feel better for doing it. Me ? Your games affect me nought, I have for over forty years dealt with and competed against men and women of far greater mental stature than you, and I am not about to let someone like you affect my peace in any way, shape or form. You are like the ant crawling up the elephants leg with rape on his mind. It just won't work. I find you response to a little joke quite enlightening. You sir, feel inadequate. How extensive this is in your life, only your wife could say. Funny thing, a playground joke brought recitations on how great your mother is/was and how in comparison mine must have been lesser. 999 people out of 1,000 would have been amused. You sir, feeling as inadequate, and a threat to your ego, were driven to expound on alleged great deeds of your mother with your barb thrown in. I bet that made you feel better, at least for a while. That gnawing feeling always returns though, doesn't it ? So the next round of hyperbole is set up, You will say whatever you must to banish that feeling, for a while. There is help for you, but seeking it would damage your view of yourself, and you can't have that. So you will remain as you are.You are not alone though, get what solace you can from that. I mean, look what feeling inadequate has done for Donald Trump. He never apologizes, never admits he is wrong, is always the best and smartest, and uses spurious accusations and nasty implications to make himself feel better, just like you. Unfortunately for you, you don't have the money or power to facilitate the illusion, so you come here to keep that ugly dog away
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I ask again, Can one have a PhD in physics, and one in earth sciences, with both disciplines rolled into one degree ?
Yes, Geophysicists are responsible for all physics and for geology. Similarly, my post-graduate work was in Oceanography. On my qualifying exams I was responsible (at least in theory) for all marine related aspects of chemistry, geology, physics and biology.
how many dissertations, one, or two ?
One dissertation in either case, which often is integrative, that is to say overlaps into multiple fields.
How many years would one take on average, compared to the average student doing a PhD in physics ?
I don;t know about physics, and it depends on the quality of the student and the procedures of the school. Most schools give you seven years, some will extend on petition. Some schools have extensive course requirements, other give a qualifying exam to define your deficiencies and, it is possible but rare, that no course work is required. You will find that the higher ranked the institution the more likely they are to trust their faculty to make such determinations without hard and fast rules.
I have two degrees in two different disciplines, If I were to continue and get my PhD, could I roll those two disciplines into one degree ?
If there are overlapping areas it is quite likely that you could.
Now you may simply be imagining that earth sciences and physics are the same. See what you can find out from wiki on that.
That overlap is a major field know as geophysics. MIT has a Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences with a specific program in Geophysics, that is described as:

The term geophysics, literally the physics of the Earth and its environment in space is, by nature, a highly interdisciplinary field. Geophysicists seek to understand the interactions among the physical and chemical processes occurring over a broad range of spatial and temporal scales, that result in the rich behaviors of geosystems from the scale of a fault in a rock you can hold in your hand up to tectonic motions on the scale of continents.

As leaders in the field, EAPS geophysicists provide important global insights on issues such as petroleum reservoirs, groundwater flow, climate, and the earthquake cycle.

Looking beyond our planet, our planetary scientists are putting geophysics lessons learnt on Earth to work to understand and remotely sense bodies they encounter in the solar system and beyond.

Of course, one doesn't address him as Dr.Dr., just Dr. Is that what is throwing you ? "can't get simple facts straight" ? You produced a lot of folderol about "Christian apologetics" totally ignorant of the fact he is a Jew.
I was not ignorant of that, it right there in his C.V. He may be a Jew, but he is making the same mistake of drawing his conclusion first and then fudging his analysis. You did the same with respect to the details of his academic credentials, that you still have yet to apologize to me for.
You are a relativity genius, why didn't you just prove what I posted was wrong ? I mean, with your understanding of the theory, it would have only taken a paragraph, Instead you whine, blabber, and spew your ad hominem dull barbs. Why is that, one wonders ?
Because I am not a relativity genius, so I rely on the broad consensus of relativity geniuses who dub Schroeder a kook.
Could all of your primping, popping and peeing be just a smokescreen because you know what I posted was right ?
It would seem that the consensus of the field is that what you posted was horse pucky. Yet you call it "right?" Right into the circular file.
That supposition, of course, requires you to understand what was posted. On second thought, I withdraw the supposition. Whenever one starts talking of "we" I know he knows he is on shaky ground. Do you have a little man in your pocket ? Are you half of cojoined twins ? Do you have a special dispensation to speak for the members of the forum ?
You mean where I said, "I think that rather clearly illustrates just how accurate your posts are and just how seriously we should take you. You don't know the truth when you trip over it. You can't even get simple facts straight, how can anyone trust your interpretation of things that require intellectual discernment?"

That was right after exposing your fraudulent inflation of Schroeder's vita (way beyond what he claims for himself) for the purpose of puffing up your appeal to authority. You've still yet to apologize to everyone here for not only those lies but for your stubborn maintenance of the fallacies after you were exposed. "We" is all of us here who participate in the forum, all of whom are lessened by your dishonesty.
No, you feel intellectually threatened, and this is a ploy to bolster your own ego with the added weight of others making yourself more authoritative.
Interesting paranoia you have, especially considering that I claim no expertise or authority on the subject, merely an interested bystander's knowledge, something that is sufficient to trigger my B.S. meter and sent me looking for more authoritative sources that address both the claim and the claimant directly.
You also want to isolate your antagonist, hoping that you speaking for the entire forum will have brought shame upon him. I hope you feel better for doing it.
You're giving me way more power then I deserve or then I want. All I ask for is that you acknowledge your lie so that we may move on.
Me ? Your games affect me nought, I have for over forty years dealt with and competed against men and women of far greater mental stature than you, and I am not about to let someone like you affect my peace in any way, shape or form.
There you go, presupposing again.
You are like the ant crawling up the elephants leg with rape on his mind. It just won't work.
Anyone reading this thread can clearly see that it did not need to work, you dug your own hole and then leaped in. Congratulations.
I find you response to a little joke quite enlightening. You sir, feel inadequate. How extensive this is in your life, only your wife could say.
Maybe I do, if you knew the community of people I was raised among, you'd understand that hand in hand with great respect for accomplishment and learning goes finding it hard to suffer fools gladly. If that is a feeling of inadequacy, so be it.
Funny thing, a playground joke brought recitations on how great your mother is/was and how in comparison mine must have been lesser. 999 people out of 1,000 would have been amused. You sir, feeling as inadequate, and a threat to your ego, were driven to expound on alleged great deeds of your mother with your barb thrown in.
Hardly, it did exactly what it was intended to do, point out how childish you were being. How else does one handle some one who lies, res fuses correction and says, "Na na nanna"?
I bet that made you feel better, at least for a while.
Naw, what made me feel good was to reveal that you lied and that you are incapable of taking correction, and that you are happy to argue from complete ignorance ot the subject. Now ... that was satisfying.
That gnawing feeling always returns though, doesn't it ? So the next round of hyperbole is set up, You will say whatever you must to banish that feeling, for a while. There is help for you, but seeking it would damage your view of yourself, and you can't have that. So you will remain as you are.You are not alone though, get what solace you can from that. I mean, look what feeling inadequate has done for Donald Trump. He never apologizes, never admits he is wrong, is always the best and smartest, and uses spurious accusations and nasty implications to make himself feel better, just like you. Unfortunately for you, you don't have the money or power to facilitate the illusion, so you come here to keep that ugly dog away
A few problems with your pop psychology: I am happy to apologize when I am error. I am happy to learn new things and little is learned if you are always right. I am not the best and the smartest, growing up as I did in the academic community, among the world's intellectual one-percent, it was hard to get an accurate bead on my rank in the wider world. I thought myself rather average I got to university and realized, as a result of outside recognition, that I was one of the sharper knives in the box.

I have made no spurious accusations, I just called you on your prevarications. In fact you are the one who has been name calling and insulting with both bold-faced claims and innuendo. But that just rolls off my back, since I can consider the source.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Is that based on arguments from ignorance though? For example, "how could something come from nothing", "how could evolution work so beautifully", complexity of life, etc.?
you get to ask God about your ignorance when you meet Him
and maybe He will ask about yours
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Yes, Geophysicists are responsible for all physics and for geology. Similarly, my post-graduate work was in Oceanography. On my qualifying exams I was responsible (at least in theory) for all marine related aspects of chemistry, geology, physics and biology.
One dissertation in either case, which often is integrative, that is to say overlaps into multiple fields.
I don;t know about physics, and it depends on the quality of the student and the procedures of the school. Most schools give you seven years, some will extend on petition. Some schools have extensive course requirements, other give a qualifying exam to define your deficiencies and, it is possible but rare, that no course work is required. You will find that the higher ranked the institution the more likely they are to trust their faculty to make such determinations without hard and fast rules.
If there are overlapping areas it is quite likely that you could.
That overlap is a major field know as geophysics. MIT has a Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences with a specific program in Geophysics, that is described as:

The term geophysics, literally the physics of the Earth and its environment in space is, by nature, a highly interdisciplinary field. Geophysicists seek to understand the interactions among the physical and chemical processes occurring over a broad range of spatial and temporal scales, that result in the rich behaviors of geosystems from the scale of a fault in a rock you can hold in your hand up to tectonic motions on the scale of continents.

As leaders in the field, EAPS geophysicists provide important global insights on issues such as petroleum reservoirs, groundwater flow, climate, and the earthquake cycle.

Looking beyond our planet, our planetary scientists are putting geophysics lessons learnt on Earth to work to understand and remotely sense bodies they encounter in the solar system and beyond.


I was not ignorant of that, it right there in his C.V. He may be a Jew, but he is making the same mistake of drawing his conclusion first and then fudging his analysis. You did the same with respect to the details of his academic credentials, that you still have yet to apologize to me for.

Because I am not a relativity genius, so I rely on the broad consensus of relativity geniuses who dub Schroeder a kook.
It would seem that the consensus of the field is that what you posted was horse pucky. Yet you call it "right?" Right into the circular file.
You mean where I said, "I think that rather clearly illustrates just how accurate your posts are and just how seriously we should take you. You don't know the truth when you trip over it. You can't even get simple facts straight, how can anyone trust your interpretation of things that require intellectual discernment?"

That was right after exposing your fraudulent inflation of Schroeder's vita (way beyond what he claims for himself) for the purpose of puffing up your appeal to authority. You've still yet to apologize to everyone here for not only those lies but for your stubborn maintenance of the fallacies after you were exposed. "We" is all of us here who participate in the forum, all of whom are lessened by your dishonesty.
Interesting paranoia you have, especially considering that I claim no expertise or authority on the subject, merely an interested bystander's knowledge, something that is sufficient to trigger my B.S. meter and sent me looking for more authoritative sources that address both the claim and the claimant directly.
You're giving me way more power then I deserve or then I want. All I ask for is that you acknowledge your lie so that we may move on.
There you go, presupposing again.

Anyone reading this thread can clearly see that it did not need to work, you dug your own hole and then leaped in. Congratulations.

Maybe I do, if you knew the community of people I was raised among, you'd understand that hand in hand with great respect for accomplishment and learning goes finding it hard to suffer fools gladly. If that is a feeling of inadequacy, so be it.
Hardly, it did exactly what it was intended to do, point out how childish you were being. How else does one handle some one who lies, res fuses correction and says, "Na na nanna"?
Naw, what made me feel good was to reveal that you lied and that you are incapable of taking correction, and that you are happy to argue from complete ignorance ot the subject. Now ... that was satisfying.

A few problems with your pop psychology: I am happy to apologize when I am error. I am happy to learn new things and little is learned if you are always right. I am not the best and the smartest, growing up as I did in the academic community, among the world's intellectual one-percent, it was hard to get an accurate bead on my rank in the wider world. I thought myself rather average I got to university and realized, as a result of outside recognition, that I was one of the sharper knives in the box.

I have made no spurious accusations, I just called you on your prevarications. In fact you are the one who has been name calling and insulting with both bold-faced claims and innuendo. But that just rolls off my back, since I can consider the source.
One last response to the above drivel, and herein lies the entire issue.Seeing the name Schroeder, a new name to you you jumped on the internet to find critical opinions of him, which, of course you did. I posted a very simple illustration from Einstein's theory of general relativity, time space dilation, idea's that eighth grade science students are familiar with. This was posted as a foundation for a following argument. Because you were able to find criticism of Schroeder, you rolled that into what I posted, indicting your own wooly understanding of the theory. You waxed to lyrical heights of approbation regarding Schroeder, with no knowledge of exactly what he proposes. One can only wonder why you are even involved in discussions here, you don;t want to discuss anything. Have you decided that your lot in life is to be a flea on the corporate body of those with whom you disagree ? Pilate asked Christ. "what is truth?". This appears to be a question that you cannot answer for yourself., nor can you grasp what is posted as well proven scientific proof. You sir, are a poseur, and as such, I wash my hands of you. As one, in your inadequacy, who most always have the last word, stumble on. Just keep in mind that you said that proven concepts from the theory of general relativity were garbage. That is all I need to know, that is all you need to know
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Considering that I live in a country that leads the rankings for tuberculosis cases, I have not forgotten the prevalence of TB, Malaria, Yellow Fever. However, these things do not lead in terms of death nor are they unpreventable.

3886969_orig.png


Influenza and pneumonia deaths are 100 percent preventable and curable.
Heart Ailments are preventable and curable.
HIV is preventable. It's probably curable, but considering the budget of your average Peruvian it might as well not be – too expensive.
Kidney Disease... I'm not sure.
Stomach Cancer is preventable and curable.
Liver Disease is related to excessive alcohol consumption here and hepatitis. Both are preventable. Hepatitis is curable.
Hypertension is preventable and curable.
Low Birth Weight is preventable and curable.
Malnutrition is preventable and curable.
Diabetes II is preventable and curable. Diabetes I is neither preventable nor curable.
Congenital Anomalies ... not preventable.
Tuberculosis is preventable and curable.

The other diseases you mentioned either don't hit the top 10 or are preventable (Mosquito extermination effectively prevents malaria and yellow fever).

My understanding is that if you took Africa and looked at top causes of death, the leading causes are TB, LRI (lower respiratory infections), Diarrheal Diseases, HIV/AIDS; these are diseases treated and cured by medication (outside of HIV/AIDS which is treatable).

If you broke it by strata, while Heart diseases do play a huge role, in lower income nations you'll find diseases treatable by medicine are fairly common and among the leading cause of death. Malaria definitely makes it to the top 10.

But I thought your argument was around the grounds that medicine and science hasn't been that great? Are you talking about efficiency or more along the distribution of medication as decided by financial factors? Sorry if I misunderstood.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
One last response to the above drivel, and herein lies the entire issue.Seeing the name Schroeder, a new name to you you jumped on the internet to find critical opinions of him, which, of course you did. I posted a very simple illustration from Einstein's theory of general relativity, time space dilation, idea's that eighth grade science students are familiar with. This was posted as a foundation for a following argument. Because you were able to find criticism of Schroeder, you rolled that into what I posted, indicting your own wooly understanding of the theory. You waxed to lyrical heights of approbation regarding Schroeder, with no knowledge of exactly what he proposes. One can only wonder why you are even involved in discussions here, you don;t want to discuss anything. Have you decided that your lot in life is to be a flea on the corporate body of those with whom you disagree ? Pilate asked Christ. "what is truth?". This appears to be a question that you cannot answer for yourself., nor can you grasp what is posted as well proven scientific proof. You sir, are a poseur, and as such, I wash my hands of you. As one, in your inadequacy, who most always have the last word, stumble on. Just keep in mind that you said that proven concepts from the theory of general relativity were garbage. That is all I need to know, that is all you need to know
That's vaguely, though not completely correct. Here are some of the differences between your claims and reality:
  1. I probably understand relativity and time dilation as well, or better than you do.
  2. I am not, however, an expert on relativity or time dilation.
  3. When I read your opinion, it seemed a bit off.
  4. You based your argument on an appeal to authority, e.g, Schroeder,'s eminence, buttressing that appeal with inventions of his degrees, his positions and his tenure.
  5. I looked for, and found Perakh's authoritative information on relativity and time dilation; and what he said demonstrates that your opinion is, at best, misguided.
  6. In the process I also found that your sole authority, Schroeder, is a kook
  7. In the process I also found that you inflated about Schroeder stature and credentials.
  8. I brought that to your attention, assuming a simple error, but rather than thanking me an moving on you went off on a tear of personal invective against me.
It appears to me that you have uncritically seized upon Schroeder's misguided opinions, not because you have the background to understand the realities, but rather because your preconceptions and presuppositions are aligned with Schroeder's.

The facts remain:
  1. You misrepresented Schroeder's credentials.
  2. You have yet to admit your misrepresentation.
  3. You have demonstrated that you don't even know that the field of Geophysics (Schroeder's specialty) exists, but were happy to willfully attempt to twist your ignorance into a claim that Schroeder had multiple PhDs.
  4. You have yet to admit your demonstrated ignorance and prevarication.
  5. You have demonstrated, repeatedly, that you are not to be trusted or taken seriously.
That is all anyone needs to know.

I think we are done here.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No, I said you shouldn't take drugs at all. Learn to read. Nevertheless, how many people in this world have taken marijuana? Cocaine? Alcohol? Nicotine? Caffeine? A lot of these things don't even have careful quality control. Still, people take the risk. I'm not here to tell people what their acceptable level of risk is.

Well, I’m actually a pretty good reader, which is how I know that you said (which is what I initially took issue with when I first responded to you), “Nothing! I propose simply that people who are in need of the drug try it themselves and carefully determine their own reaction to the drug. Wherever possible, drugs should be avoided. People don't have heart attacks becaue of a deficiency of Wellbutrin. Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food.”


As another poster so astutely pointed out, I am talking about the need to test drugs that are going to be prescribed by doctors to people who are suffering from various ailments. It seems obvious to me that it would be irresponsible not to test such drugs for safety and efficacy.


This is a strawman argument. My argument is that testing is mostly pointless because each person is different and that people should avoid drugs wherever possible because they often have dangerous interactions, bad side effects, and dubious benefits. There is no way to go from that argument to the idea that I think water shouldn't be injested.

I disagree that testing drugs to determine toxicity levels and side effects before distributing them to people is “mostly pointless.” You appeared to be talking about the importance of dosage level. You said above that “people shouldn’t take drugs at all.” because some OTC drugs can be harmful at high doses as well as things like water and vitamin A. How did I not properly address your argument?


Perhaps people should avoid drugs wherever possible, but the fact of the matter is, many people suffer from diseases that require drug treatment. And we need to be able to know beforehand, what kind of results to expect when people ingest prescription drugs. It’s a lot safer and more effective than just flying blind, if that is what you’re suggesting.


Misleading. Yes, it's true that most drugs that go into animal testing never make it through and into human testing. However, 92 percent of drugs that pass the animal testing phase fail in the human testing phase. That's because animals are different from humans, and results in animals are rarely if ever the same as the results in humans. Are you aware, for example, that penicillin is toxic to guinea pigs? Chocolate kills dogs. Aspirin kills cats.

That’s why human clinical trials are also important.


Well, considering that medical treatment is the third leading cause of death, I wouldn't put as much faith in doctors as you do. Those doctors make lots of mistakes, and many of those mistakes are fatal.

Medical malpractice is the third leading cause of death. They’re not the same thing.


So are you still asserting that “people who are in need of the drug try it themselves and carefully determine their own reaction to the drug?” Do you really think that’s safer than controlled drug testing under scientific scrutiny?


Oh, do you want a more recent drug? Try https://www.drugwatch.com/actos/

It’s not the amount of time it’s been since it’s been removed from the market place, it’s the fact that it was taken off the market when it was determined to be more far more harmful than beneficial.


Extremely debatable.

It’s extremely debatable that taking a drug to save your life is safer than dying from a treatable illness? How so?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Another evidence for creation is the single cell. It is enormously complex. Protein, the basic building block in nature, has not been manufactured outside the cell. Yet, the ingredients to form it are there in outer space. Thus, no way for evo or life to develop unless life was there already.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Another evidence for creation is the single cell. It is enormously complex. Protein, the basic building block in nature, has not been manufactured outside the cell. Yet, the ingredients to form it are there in outer space. Thus, no way for evo or life to develop unless life was there already.
If you pursue your train of assumption you quickly fall into the infinite regression trap. Parsimony is the logical way out and that points to abiogenesis and then evolution.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
No. The evolution of organisms that reproduce very quickly such as bacteria is already verifiable evidence that validates the theory of evolution. Creationists will often say that this only states that evolution happens on a small level. Well, that pretty much invalidates creationism. Evolution is a concept present on anything with genetic material. It's caused by natural selection. Any species that is mortal and can reproduce (every species) evolves. Organisms change over time. Creationists believe that we were all placed here and haven't changed since our alleged creation. Well, over such a long period of time since the Earth was formed, large scale evolution had to happen.

Do I think humans will further evolve? No. We will actually go backwards. Our technology has prevented natural selection from affecting us very much.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I had a cousin about the same age as me (less than a year younger than me). He was more active than me, therefore more fitter than I ever was, as he regularly exercised and play sports. He also had better diet, and he never smoke, drink and do drug. He was also happy and content with his career. He was close to parents, siblings and his relatives, and was pretty much in love with his wife. He was also religiously a Christian, with a bit of influences from Taoism and Buddhism from his parents.

And yet being healthy with a very healthy lifestyle, about 15 years ago, he passed away, because stomach cancer killed him.

Now had the cancer being detected earlier, he would probably still be alive today, because it could have been still treatable. By the time they had detected that he had cancer, it was already too late. He seemed to be strong and healthy, until one day he just collapsed. Only then, did he discovered he had cancer, when he was in hospital, and found out that had a disease for months and possibly for some years, and didn't know about it.

My point in all this, Zosimus, that even with a healthy lifestyle, illnesses or diseases can still happen and be a matter of life and death situation, regardless of what you do in life.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
My understanding is that if you took Africa and looked at top causes of death, the leading causes are TB, LRI (lower respiratory infections), Diarrheal Diseases, HIV/AIDS; these are diseases treated and cured by medication (outside of HIV/AIDS which is treatable).

If you broke it by strata, while Heart diseases do play a huge role, in lower income nations you'll find diseases treatable by medicine are fairly common and among the leading cause of death. Malaria definitely makes it to the top 10.

But I thought your argument was around the grounds that medicine and science hasn't been that great? Are you talking about efficiency or more along the distribution of medication as decided by financial factors? Sorry if I misunderstood.
I will make my rebuttal based on a few assumptions.

1. I assume that you believe in science and in scientific research papers.
2. I assume that you understand that if I quote a scientific paper, it doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with it any more than an atheist who quotes the Bible to silence a Christian must believe in the Bible.

Therefore, my argument will consist of posting some research papers. Normally, after I do so, someone posts something idiotic like "You can't quote science papers and simultaneously deny the efficacy of science." However, I can indeed do so.

Here, respiratory infection along with the complications that stem therefrom is the biggest killer. Yet a simple look at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543548/ , a peer-reviewed meta-analysis of all randomized placebo-controlled studies to date indicates that circulating levels of vitamin D are predictive of acute respiratory infection. Now vitamin D has nothing to do with modern medicine. Here, where most people are dark skinned, and most people live in the capital, which is constantly overcast, circulating levels of vitamin D are typically low. Use of sunscreen exacerbates the vitamin D deficiency situation. Vitamin D deficiency is also related to Tuberculosis progression and adequate levels of vitamin D seem to accelerate clinical recovery from tuberculosis. My wife, who is one-quarter black and thus very dark skinned, often suffers from influenza infection. She has obtained substantial relief from the illness through vitamin C supplementation, a personal observation that corresponds well with the referenced study.

So I stand by my claim that western medicine admits that ARI is both preventable and treatable without western medicine.

As for heart disease, which is the second largest killer here, all scientific research seems to indicate that the number one cause of cardiovascular disease is not cholesterol but magnesium deficiency. A secondary risk factor is low circulating levels of vitamin D. Again, these are not factors that western medicine corrects with medication. Here, those with wealth typically rent a beach house at Playa Asia and thus get sufficient vitamin D for the year while the poor toil away in the overcast city rather than receiving optimum sun exposure while sipping pisco sour and eating almonds on the beach.

Magnesium deficiency does not require pharmaceuticals to correct.

Cancer is a major concern here, but again all indications are that cancer is linked to excessive consumption of heme iron and diabetes (except in the case of prostate cancer). Again, these are things that are controllable. Eat less meat and more iron-rich plant foods and avoid diabetes like the plague.

This is something else that doesn't require western medicine. In fact, the only factor known to increase lifespan in the aged is vitamin C consumption. Again, this doesn't require pharmaceuticals.
----------------------------
In conclusion, if you believe in science, you shouldn't believe in western medicine.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Well, I’m actually a pretty good reader, which is how I know that you said (which is what I initially took issue with when I first responded to you), “Nothing! I propose simply that people who are in need of the drug try it themselves and carefully determine their own reaction to the drug. Wherever possible, drugs should be avoided. People don't have heart attacks becaue of a deficiency of Wellbutrin. Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food.”

As another poster so astutely pointed out, I am talking about the need to test drugs that are going to be prescribed by doctors to people who are suffering from various ailments. It seems obvious to me that it would be irresponsible not to test such drugs for safety and efficacy
.
This is more of an emotional statement of personal belief than something that is backed up by something real that I can address.

I disagree that testing drugs to determine toxicity levels and side effects before distributing them to people is “mostly pointless.” You appeared to be talking about the importance of dosage level. You said above that “people shouldn’t take drugs at all.” because some OTC drugs can be harmful at high doses as well as things like water and vitamin A. How did I not properly address your argument?
Most of this testing to determine toxicity levels does not occur in humans. It is considered unethical to poison humans to determine at what point a medication becomes toxic. This type of research is often carried out on animals and, as I've already pointed out, 92 percent of those studies are worthless because as soon as people start doing testing in humans, the reaction to the drug is substantially different.

Perhaps people should avoid drugs wherever possible, but the fact of the matter is, many people suffer from diseases that require drug treatment.
This is not impossible, but I can't think of an example right off the top of my head. Are you referring to bacterial infection or something else?

Medical malpractice is the third leading cause of death. They’re not the same thing.
Hair splitting. As I said, doctors make mistakes and those mistakes can be fatal.

So are you still asserting that “people who are in need of the drug try it themselves and carefully determine their own reaction to the drug?” Do you really think that’s safer than controlled drug testing under scientific scrutiny?
This scientific scrutiny you're talking about is a myth. About half of all clinical trials are never published. Pharmaceutical companies tend to publish those results that show that their medication works and is safe while downplaying or supressing RCTs that don't support their drug. That's the point of movements such as http://www.alltrials.net/news/the-story-of-the-campaign-thats-changing-the-world/
 

Zosimus

Active Member
I had a cousin about the same age as me (less than a year younger than me). He was more active than me, therefore more fitter than I ever was, as he regularly exercised and play sports. He also had better diet, and he never smoke, drink and do drug. He was also happy and content with his career. He was close to parents, siblings and his relatives, and was pretty much in love with his wife. He was also religiously a Christian, with a bit of influences from Taoism and Buddhism from his parents.

And yet being healthy with a very healthy lifestyle, about 15 years ago, he passed away, because stomach cancer killed him.

Now had the cancer being detected earlier, he would probably still be alive today, because it could have been still treatable. By the time they had detected that he had cancer, it was already too late. He seemed to be strong and healthy, until one day he just collapsed. Only then, did he discovered he had cancer, when he was in hospital, and found out that had a disease for months and possibly for some years, and didn't know about it.

My point in all this, Zosimus, that even with a healthy lifestyle, illnesses or diseases can still happen and be a matter of life and death situation, regardless of what you do in life.
How much heme iron did he consume? There's no way for me to tell from your post.

How was he treated? Did he get inositol hexaphosphate (IP6) supplementation? Studies indicate that this vitamin reduces iron load and inhibits cancer. Try looking at:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17044765 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14608114 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15919420 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9244360 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16563438 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14666664

I'm guessing the answer is no. Are you aware that IP6 occurs naturally in food, but it is removed to save us from this "anti-nutrient?" God bless modern science!

Are you aware that cancer cells consume glucose for fermentation in order to power themselves? Was your cousin placed on a zero-carbohydrate diet and given a biguanide such as metformin to prevent the liver from producing glucose? I'm guessing the answer is no.

Was your cousin informed that vitamin D has been shown to cause apoptosis is undifferentiated gastric cancer cells? I guess not considering that science only got around to discovering that in 2012 and your brother died 15 years ago.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
How much heme iron did he consume? There's no way for me to tell from your post.

How was he treated? Did he get inositol hexaphosphate (IP6) supplementation? Studies indicate that this vitamin reduces iron load and inhibits cancer. Try looking at:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17044765 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14608114 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15919420 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9244360 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16563438 or
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14666664

I'm guessing the answer is no. Are you aware that IP6 occurs naturally in food, but it is removed to save us from this "anti-nutrient?" God bless modern science!

Are you aware that cancer cells consume glucose for fermentation in order to power themselves? Was your cousin placed on a zero-carbohydrate diet and given a biguanide such as metformin to prevent the liver from producing glucose? I'm guessing the answer is no.

Was your cousin informed that vitamin D has been shown to cause apoptosis is undifferentiated gastric cancer cells? I guess not considering that science only got around to discovering that in 2012 and your brother died 15 years ago.

I am not privileged to my late cousin's medical treatment. I am his cousin, not his brother, so I wouldn't know what treatment he took. Do you think the hospital would release to me that sort of information.

I only knew about his cancer, after he had died. His family kept kept his cancer quiet, so I didn't know about his collapse or that he was in hospital.

Do you think it is proper of me to quizz his brother, sisters or his wife about such things, during the funeral or afterward? (His mother died a couple of years before he did.)
 

Zosimus

Active Member
I am not privileged to my late cousin's medical treatment. I am his cousin, not his brother, so I wouldn't know what treatment he took. Do you think the hospital would release to me that sort of information.

I only knew about his cancer, after he had died. His family kept kept his cancer quiet, so I didn't know about his collapse or that he was in hospital.

Do you think it is proper of me to quizz his brother, sisters or his wife about such things, during the funeral or afterward? (His mother died a couple of years before he did.)
Well, if you don't have the details of his situation, why are you trying to use this example to support your opinion in an online debate?
 
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