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Verifiable evidence for creationism?

Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 85 81.0%

  • Total voters
    105

gnostic

The Lost One
This is why i.d. doesn't even qualify as a scientific hypothesis since such a hypothesis must include some evidence to indicate that it could be true.

An example is if I make the claim that the world is coming to an end tomorrow, but when you ask me what kind of evidence that I have for this, and I can't produce any but say that I just believe it's just gonna happen, this might be a personal hypothesis but it ain't a scientific hypothesis.

You are right.

Anyone has right to state what he or she believe in, but if or when a person state what person believe in to be "science" or "scientific" then that have to provide evidences to back up his or her belief (or opinion).

Science is all about refuting or testing any statement. ID is untestable, because the Designer himself is untestable.

Michael Behe could never provide any evidences for his Irreducible Complexity, because he could never show that the Designer actually existing. His paper on IC is not even scientific hypothesis, because it is unfalsifiable.

I think JB is confusing evidences with personal belief.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Certainly, those are fine credentials. The evidence for ID is the complexity and beauty in nature. We have mathematics which humans invented, but yet it's found in nature. It's a great mystery.


Finally, you ignored what I said in my last post. Are you sure you aren't wrong? I believe it will be important later when we are ready to meet our Maker

"Both these theories are based on faith. One is based on the idea that a divine being (an intelligent designer) miraculously created life instantaneously. The other is based on the belief that unseen, unknown, impersonal, natural forces miraculously created life over a long period of time. Both theories have been constructed to support one or the other of these two "religious" beliefs.".

C.S. Lewis.... really? A rank amateur and his arguments which were refuted decades ago should have stuck to writing children's novels. Outside of evangelical Christianity Lewis has zero credibility
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Let's stick with Professor Lovejoy which is what I was trying to do. The article I posted is from Kent State U. Thus, he is on record with his statements. I found that he published a paper there on his theory after examining and this was published in Science. He said that after examing Ardipithecus that he concluded that humans did not evolve from chimpanzee-like apes. He concluded apes came from humans. http://digitalcommons.kent.edu/anthpubs/19/ .
If you can't read that try here http://science.sciencemag.org/content/326/5949/74.full . For the laymen in the audience here is a news article http://www.upi.com/Study-Man-did-not-evolve-from-apes/40881254412291/ .

I believe him when he says that Ardipithecus provides more information than Lucy. You say Lucy was an ape-man. I say it was a chimpanzee. The Professor says there isn't enough information to glean from the fossils, but considers it a chimpanzee-like ape. Yet, Ardi, which came 100 million years prior gives the information for his studies. From his study, he concluded that humans did not evolve from chimpanzee-like apes. What do you think of Ardipithecus now?
Did Homo sapiens come from and early chimp or did Pan sp. come from an earliest "man" is an idiotic argument only suited to congenital contraries and headline seekers. It is an argument without real meaning. It is not a question that bears on reality, it is an issue of which parallax view (left or right) you take of the Hominini clade, the division line twixt earliest man and earliest chimp is entirely arbitrary.

396599_455308494506995_1855492040_n.jpg


That's me standing behind Sigourney Weaver, with Sylvia Earle to my left and Jane Goodall to Sigourney's right. We were all listening to Donald Johanson talking about finding Lucy.
 
Last edited:

Zosimus

Active Member
Work on your reading comprehension, and vocal as well.
I have a Certificate of Proficiency in English from Cambridge University with a perfect score on reading. I also scored perfect on the verbal section of the GMAT. My reading comprehension makes your reading comprehension wet its pants.

The problem is that your sentences don't make any sense. You want me to work on my reading comprehension and vocal? How am I to work on my vocal? Do you want me to sing or what?

Your inability to understand what you read and hear is a problem which ends up causing you to lash out when you can not process information.
Why would you say this? It's needlessly redundant and unhelpful. My inability to understand what I read and hear? Have you recorded some audio on here that I haven't been accessing? If you have, please link me to it! I need all the help I can get to understand the endless babbling you engage in. Case in point: Why would you say "...a problem which ends up causing you to lash out..."? Why not just say "...a problem that causes you to lash out..."? Eliminate the redundancies, please!

Otherwise you wouldn't have accepted unstated hypothesis from users here. That is your problem. You do not understand what your read, you mimic what YT video says.
Do you mean "an unstated hypothesis" or "unstated hypotheses"? I'm not a mind reader here. I cannot know which of the two errors you made when constructing the sentence, thus I cannot figure out what your real meaning is.

The principle is about two equal explanations yet you allowed users to only state the one they rejected. Never once did you press for the accepted idea. Thus they never followed the principle and you didn't understand the principle. You ranted about using the principle to people that never actually used it.
I allowed people to only STATE the one they rejected? Wrong. I allow them to state, to read, to deny, to infer, and to do anything else. I can only assume that your "only" is misplaced. I allowed any of a variety of actions from the people who post. Why would I press for the accepted idea when the idea I was attacking was the principle itself?

Your YT video fails as it treated science and religion as equal but the last 2 centuries have shown that science is above religion in regards to it's reliability, prediction power and knowledge developed from it.
I know you want to think that, but the data do not support your position. In addition, when you use the word "it" more than once in the same sentence to refer to completely different things, it becomes hard to understand what you mean.

So the comparison was false. The examples I provided covered the failure of the principle which covered at least one subject the average person has no issue with; atomic theory. There are also other criteria which you, and your YT video, avoided such as necessary assumptions thus failed as it only focused on simplicity, 1 part of the principle. This part of the principle is a key reason why people continued to develop atomic theory even after the appeal to simplicity to dismiss it. Atoms were considered a necessary assumption. This assumption was later shown to be correct.
I think that you didn't understand the video at all. The point was that eliminating things just because they're not as simple as you want is a bad idea. Your rebuttal is that atomic theory needed an extra assumption to work well? How does this rebut the idea that simplicity for simplicity's sake is a bad idea? Oh wait... IT DOESN'T. It reinforces the idea.

Misapplication and not understanding the principle is typical here. It is merely invoked after the fact.
You see? I cannot process this sentence because the subject and the verb don't agree. You said "...is typical here." What is typical? Misapplication and not understanding? That's two things, so the verb should be are. Unless you think that "not understand the principle is typical" and the "misapplication" is supposed to be some sort of a modifier.

I think you should seriously consider the idea that I might not understand your point not because my reading comprehension is bad but because your writing skills are so poor. You said you agreed with me, but now you want to argue about agreeing with me? What for?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
The question is why there is so much debate about this. If there is a real debate. Why did God make the pinnacle of His creation, the being in His image, the very being He created the whole Universe for, in such a way to make this discussion even possible?

Ciao

- viole

Free will. Then, I guess you missed the entire 1800s when the creation scientists battled the uprising evolutionists and had your eyes and ears closed when learning about the Scopes trial, Epperson v. Arkansas and the battle for teaching creation in schools after the 1980s.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Lucy has already being classified as an "Australopithecus", so this Professor Lovejoy of yours is a dumb ***.

More specifically Lucy is an Australopithecus afarensis.

There are enough of Lucy's pelvis and her femur, to indicate she was bipedal, so she was more human-like than chimpanzee-like.

Another site, in which 13 individual Australopithecus afarensis were discovered together, and lived roughly around the same time as Lucy (3.2 million years ago), found that they had arched feet, again demonstrated that they would have walked upright most of the time.

Ha ha. Ad hominem attacks won't get you anywhere. And you are wrong again. Not enough information on the "chimpanzee-like ape."
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Did Homo sapiens come from and early chimp or did Pan sp. come from an earliest "man" is an idiotic argument only suited to congenital contraries and headline seekers. It is an argument without real meaning. It is not a question that bears on reality, it is an issue of which parallax view (left or right) you take of the Hominini clade, the division line twixt earliest man and earliest chimp is entirely arbitrary.

396599_455308494506995_1855492040_n.jpg


That's me standing behind Sigourney Weaver, with Sylvia Earle to my left and Jane Goodall to Sigourney's right. We were all listening to Donald Johanson talking about finding Lucy.

I think the professor makes a worthwhile argument. Going down the apes-to-man road has caused problems and even more questions which have not been answered. Let's get Lucy squared away which is one of the things I wanted to do.

Do you still think Lucy provides enough information? It came 100 million years after Ardipithecus ramidus. I rather focus on Ardi.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Do you still think Lucy provides enough information? It came 100 million years after Ardipithecus ramidus. I rather focus on Ardi.

Where are you getting this 100 million years, jb?

Lucy, is Australopithecus afarensis, dated to around 3.2 million years ago, which is Late Pliocene epoch.

The Ardipithecus ramidus has been dated to around 4.4 million years ago, putting in the Early Pliocene.

100 million years would be around Middle Cretaceous period, the time of dinosaurs, where there were no Ardipithecus and Australopithecus species, and no Pan genus (ancestor of the chimpanzees).

Again, where are you getting your figure of 100 million years, JB?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I have a Certificate of Proficiency in English from Cambridge University with a perfect score on reading. I also scored perfect on the verbal section of the GMAT. My reading comprehension makes your reading comprehension wet its pants.

Yet you completely missed the fact that people only used the principle to reject an idea rather than accepting one out of two ideas.

The problem is that your sentences don't make any sense. You want me to work on my reading comprehension and vocal? How am I to work on my vocal? Do you want me to sing or what?

Read my points again. These made perfect sense once you spend the time reading what the principle is rather than an assumption of what it is.

Your hearing ie vocal communication from your YT video. If you need an example look up comprehensions of vocal communication

Why would you say this? It's needlessly redundant and unhelpful. My inability to understand what I read and hear? Have you recorded some audio on here that I haven't been accessing? If you have, please link me to it! I need all the help I can get to understand the endless babbling you engage in. Case in point: Why would you say "...a problem which ends up causing you to lash out..."? Why not just say "...a problem that causes you to lash out..."? Eliminate the redundancies, please!

Your YT video link was vocal communication.


Do you mean "an unstated hypothesis" or "unstated hypotheses"? I'm not a mind reader here. I cannot know which of the two errors you made when constructing the sentence, thus I cannot figure out what your real meaning is.

I guess your inability to understand anyone that does not use perfect English is a problem for you. You should fix that considering you are using a public international forum.

Regardless of singular or plural you missed the fact that people mimicked the principle rather than actually following it. This was further hammered home by your video which misapplies the principle. You are arguing pointless grammar and sentence structure which is nothing more than a dodging the point


I allowed people to only STATE the one they rejected? Wrong. I allow them to state, to read, to deny, to infer, and to do anything else. I can only assume that your "only" is misplaced. I allowed any of a variety of actions from the people who post. Why would I press for the accepted idea when the idea I was attacking was the principle itself?

You never pointed out the misapplication of the principle. There is no point is talking about a principle no one actually used. Your attacks on the idea were flawed and didn't support your conclusion regardless if the conclusion was right or not.


I know you want to think that, but the data do not support your position. In addition, when you use the word "it" more than once in the same sentence to refer to completely different things, it becomes hard to understand what you mean.

It completely failed since it only used simplicity as the criteria which is not the only criteria of the principle. Its not hard to follow which it I am referring to since there is a reference point right before it.


I think that you didn't understand the video at all. The point was that eliminating things just because they're not as simple as you want is a bad idea. Your rebuttal is that atomic theory needed an extra assumption to work well? How does this rebut the idea that simplicity for simplicity's sake is a bad idea? Oh wait... IT DOESN'T. It reinforces the idea.

No I understood it made a poor argument based on a misapplication of the principle. The first was simplicity. The second was treating science and religion as equal. then injecting a third as if was equal to the others

My point about atomic theory was that simplicity was used to dismiss the idea as atom were an assumption required by the theory to work. Those that rejected the idea put forward that atoms were an unwarranted assumption with those that supported the theory put forward it was warranted.

Again your lack in reading comprehension failed you. My points about atomic theory were to demonstrated the appeal to simplicity is flawed. You assumed it was a rebuttal. It wasn't. This is not the first time I have said as much


You see? I cannot process this sentence because the subject and the verb don't agree. You said "...is typical here." What is typical? Misapplication and not understanding? That's two things, so the verb should be are. Unless you think that "not understand the principle is typical" and the "misapplication" is supposed to be some sort of a modifier.

Irrelevant really. Most people can easily figure out is/are issues and move on. Another dodge, nothing more.

I think you should seriously consider the idea that I might not understand your point not because my reading comprehension is bad but because your writing skills are so poor. You said you agreed with me, but now you want to argue about agreeing with me? What for?

Again you are inability to function out of your perfect english bubble is your problem. You are using your bubble as a dodge to cover your errors. Build a bridge and get over it.

I agree with the conclusion but your arguments do not support your conclusion since you, and your YT video, are not even applying it correctly. Hence why I provided actually examples when the appeal to simplicity failed.

The major issue with using this principle is subjectivity. People assign simplicity based on their view points. People will call God simply, or not, then invoke the principle. People will call God an unnecessary, or not, then invoke the principle. It is nothing but a rationalization of a previous view point rather than a conclusion based upon the principle
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Just your opinion ha ha.

Not really, his arguments for Christianity are laughable since each one is based on the Bible (NT) as not only a reliable but accurate history of Jesus. It isn't, this is an axiom of this brand of faith. Since this axiom is easy to reject his argument collapse. Hence why he is only popular with those that follow such an axiom.
 

McBell

Unbound
I have a Certificate of Proficiency in English from Cambridge University with a perfect score on reading. I also scored perfect on the verbal section of the GMAT. My reading comprehension makes your reading comprehension wet its pants.
interesting that your posting does not reflect the above quoted claim.

Which means you have admitted to dishonesty.
Either the above claim is dishonest or the majority of your posts are dishonest.

interesting indeed.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
interesting that your posting does not reflect the above quoted claim.

Which means you have admitted to dishonesty.
Either the above claim is dishonest or the majority of your posts are dishonest.

interesting indeed.

Apparently having a perfect score means one is not capable of, let alone tries to, understand poor English yet those with less than a perfect score can get by just fine.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I think the professor makes a worthwhile argument. Going down the apes-to-man road has caused problems and even more questions which have not been answered. Let's get Lucy squared away which is one of the things I wanted to do.

Do you still think Lucy provides enough information? It came 100 million years after Ardipithecus ramidus. I rather focus on Ardi.
Are you going to respond to #2342 and the rest of #2320 any time soon?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Where are you getting this 100 million years, jb?

Lucy, is Australopithecus afarensis, dated to around 3.2 million years ago, which is Late Pliocene epoch.

The Ardipithecus ramidus has been dated to around 4.4 million years ago, putting in the Early Pliocene.

100 million years would be around Middle Cretaceous period, the time of dinosaurs, where there were no Ardipithecus and Australopithecus species, and no Pan genus (ancestor of the chimpanzees).

Again, where are you getting your figure of 100 million years, JB?

If you read the articles I posted about Lovejoy...
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Not really, his arguments for Christianity are laughable since each one is based on the Bible (NT) as not only a reliable but accurate history of Jesus. It isn't, this is an axiom of this brand of faith. Since this axiom is easy to reject his argument collapse. Hence why he is only popular with those that follow such an axiom.

Wrong again. The Bible, the best selling book of NON-FICTION, has sold over 5 billion copies per Guinness Book of World Records. While creation scientists do use the Bible as a source, their science is based on science per the God of the Gaps warning.
 

McBell

Unbound
The Bible, the best selling book of NON-FICTION,
Source please

has sold over 5 billion copies per Guinness Book of World Records.
sold or printed?
And what difference does it make how many are sold or printed?
the number sold/printed is completely irrelevant to the historicity of the Bible.
It is nothing more than an appeal to numbers fallacy.

While creation scientists do use the Bible as a source, their science is based on science per the God of the Gaps warning.
What does this even mean?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Are you going to respond to #2342 and the rest of #2320 any time soon?

Eventually. I'm still on Ardipithecus. Why not expound your thinking on Ardipithecus while we're at it since that was huge on your list. Otherwise, we can assume Lucy was a chimp around 3' tall. Do you still say apeman (Prof. Lovejoy says chimpanzee-like ape)? I'm waiting to hear from Sapiens since he was there to listen to Donald Johanson. The creation scientists have what Johnson said.
 
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