Vote For Romney = Vote for Satan

[FFH]

Pollingreports.com got him at # 4 and the democratic nominees of Clinton and Obama are much higher in the ranks which leads me to believe with the short time left before 2008 he ain't gonna be it. The academic discussion though is cool to engage in.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08rep.htm

If not this time around next time.

Prophecy tells us he will become Vice then President, due to an impeachment, if I've read the prophecy correctly...

Sooner or later he will become President...

Just looked at the "polling report" link and judging by those stats I would have to say that Rudy will most likely be the Republican niminee and he may ask Mitt to be his running mate.

If it comes down to Hillary and Rudy, with Mitt as his running mate, I would assume Rudy would win the Presidency...

 

[jonny]

If not this time around next time.

Prophecy tells us he will become Vice then President...

I'm almost afraid to ask, but it this one of those Bible code things?

 

[FFH]

An opinion for ya Jonny, although Keller is a complete idiot, he does make some valid points. The LDS member that is defending it doesn't do a whole lot of good to help their image. He does kinda skirt around ansering those questions correctly. He tells just enough about the truth to make it sound good. Example: We believe we can become like Christ. The whole statement is "If we are good enough Mormons we can possibly be God of our own world somewhere in the unierse". Why not tell the whole truth? There were many of these half truths. If mormons wouldn't try to hide thier true beliefs so much, they might be able to loose their cult like image. Maybe. That or it would scare any new prospects from joining the church.

Yeah, I think a lot of us here could have done a better job in defending our religion...

Anyone can call Keller up and discuss religion with him....

His main beef is that we don't accept Jesus as God, which we do. The difference between us and "born again" or non-denominational Christians is that they tend to pray to Jesus Christ, who is God, but so is his/the/our Father...

God the Father
God the Son
Holy Ghost (God the Father's spirit)

We as LDS pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ (who is God the Son)

I think Keller needs to understand that...

Again he probably prays to Jesus Christ, which we are told not to do in LDS doctrine.

Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father or middle man between us and the Father...

Christ pleads with the Father on our behalf...

Christ reconciles us with the Father.

 

[FFH]

The astronaut was Don Lind. He was in the temple presidency for the Portland Temple when I went through and received my Endowments. He was the guy who talked with me before going through the ceremonies to answer my questions.

Cool, thanks for the link, will check that out...

 

[FFH]

I'm almost afraid to ask, but it this one of those Bible code things?

Here's the thread discussing the prophecy..

"Once again a native of Michigan will stand in the White House" (1 2)

I haven't seen any of his prophecies fail so far. He predicted Bush would become President when he was Governor of Texas and he admitted he really didn't like Bush, at the time, and it kind of disturbed him..

He's met with Bush a few times and he's scheduled to meet with Dick Cheney to discuss alternative energy options..

His main prophecy now is that we will no longer be dependent on foreign oil due to the discovery of several new alternative energy sources such as "free" energy (Google the Steorn company) and the developement of Einsteins unified theory, which Einstein was working on just before he died..

Bush and Dick Cheney are at the forefront in helping researchers develope these new technologies..

These prophecies are for the here and now, not reserved for some future/far off/distant time frame.

Valid prophecies can be found in other Christian religions.

 

[Draka]

To those who have a problem with what goes on within the Temple, I would ask them if they always reveal their private conversations with God. Do they make a habit of repeating their prayers to everyone else? I honestly don't hear very many Christians of other denominations outright explaining all that they do and hear and experience while at church. What's the difference?

I honestly don't see any difference between what the Mormons do and what a lot of other religions do. Why does the Pope wear special garments? Why do priests, nuns, bishops, and other clergy wear special clothing? Why do some religions require covering one's head? Why wear crosses or carry rosaries? Why is what is said during confession so secretive? Because it is bound to God? Well, what about a whole Temple of people binding what goes on at a certain time and place to God? What the heck is the difference here?

Anyone can look at a book or my BOS and see a description of how to perform an Esbat or Sabbat ritual. That doesn't mean that I make public all that transpires between myself, other participants, and Deity. I also wear a simple white shift/gown while performing ritual. This is to symbolize purity and to also set aside yet another thing to remind me that what I am doing is special. Special time, special place. Things are not so different between religions.

 

[NomyRomy]

Get out your blood pressure medication. This guy Bill Keller is a kook and he makes all Evangelicals look bad.

Hello Jonny, although I do agree with you completely that Keller is a complete A** Clown, why is it that the mormon representative isn't completely honest about what mormons believe. I was close to the mormon faith myself and know quite abit about the belief. What the Rep was doing was kinda tip-toeing around the truth. You know what I mean, but in case you don't Ill give you an example of one of them. Example:

We believe that we can become christ-like, like god. When in truth, you belive you have the ability to become a god of your own world(if you reach that level).

There were many more of them but I think you already know what I mean if you did listen to it. That is my problem with mormons on a whole. They hide their true beliefs until you get in with them. It really doesn't help with the cult like image that the mormons have, instead it only strengthens it. I would never vote for Romney because of his ties to mormonism for that reason. I would hat to see something like that to become accepted practice. Anything that has to promote itself with half-truths and deception cannot be a positive thing in my opinion. Please explain to me why that is.

 

[jonny]

Hello Jonny, although I do agree with you completely that Keller is a complete A** Clown, why is it that the mormon representative isn't completely honest about what mormons believe. I was close to the mormon faith myself and know quite abit about the belief. What the Rep was doing was kinda tip-toeing around the truth. You know what I mean, but in case you don't Ill give you an example of one of them. Example:

We believe that we can become christ-like, like god. When in truth, you belive you have the ability to become a god of your own world(if you reach that level).

There were many more of them but I think you already know what I mean if you did listen to it. That is my problem with mormons on a whole. They hide their true beliefs until you get in with them. It really doesn't help with the cult like image that the mormons have, instead it only strengthens it. I would never vote for Romney because of his ties to mormonism for that reason. I would hat to see something like that to become accepted practice. Anything that has to promote itself with half-truths and deception cannot be a positive thing in my opinion. Please explain to me why that is.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I really don't believe that missionaries tip toe around doctrine. The missionary lessons build on themselves. It's a milk before meat type of thing. If you don't understand the mission of Christ and the role of prophets, you're not going to understand the concepts behind exaltation. So the missionaries start with teaching about the attributes of God, the mission of Jesus Christ, the role of the prophets, etc. and then continue on to teach about the Plan of Salvation, the commandments, and the restoration of the gospel.

When you were taking the missionary lessons, did you attend church for a while and attend the Gospel Principles class? If you did, there is an entire lesson on the topic you're mentioning. People investigating the church and new members are encouraged to attend this class so that they can learn the basic principles of the gospel. In the lesson manual for the class it says the following:

Blessings of Exaltation


Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, "This is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, "All things are theirs" (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people.

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have--all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

When I was a missionary we frequently gave new members and invesigators the book Gospel Principles so that they could use it as a study guide.

I think that part of the problem isn't that missionaries are trying to 'hide' our real beliefs. I think it is a communication problem. Part of it is because you are dealing with young, unexperienced men and women. When you use the term 'exaltation' your entire life, you get to the point where you don't realize that people may not completely understand what you're saying when you use the term. Also, sometimes as a missionary, I wouldn't bring up certain subjects because of time restraints or because of the attitude of the investigator. If the person we were meeting with was argumentative, I would avoid controversial subjects. Not because I was trying to hide them, but because I loath bible bashing.

One of my complaints about the missionary program is that people get baptized and join the church before they are ready. The missionary lessons are designed to find common beliefs and then build upon these beliefs. A lot of the time, people don't spend enough time reading the scriptures and learning about the church before they get baptized. Ideally, you would probably spend a year or so studying the gospel before committing to the church. If you did so, I promise that you would be pretty familiar with all the 'secrets' of Mormonism.

 

[jonny]

There's a scripture in the Book of Mormon that kind of serves as the basis for how we approach teaching the Gospel.

2 Nephi 28:30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

 

[DeepShadow]

Example:

We believe that we can become christ-like, like god. When in truth, you belive you have the ability to become a god of your own world(if you reach that level).

You gave this example before, and two people told you it wasn't doctrine. Why haven't you responded to us?

Anything that has to promote itself with half-truths and deception cannot be a positive thing in my opinion.

Again with the half-truths! Where's the half-truth in sticking to what's doctrinal instead of teaching rampant speculation?!

Many Mormons believe that they will be gods of their own planets someday, but it's not part of our doctrine. Suppose missionaries taught this as true, and then there was a revelation added to the doctrine that said otherwise. Can't you see how that would damage our reputation as well? To me, that would be teaching half-truths.

Please explain to me why that is.

How about we explain to you why that isn't. Two people have told you that so far, and you've patently ignored us. Why?

 

[DeepShadow]

There's a scripture in the Book of Mormon that kind of serves as the basis for how we approach teaching the Gospel.

2 Nephi 28:30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

That's a good scripture. Here's another that's relevant:

Alma 12:9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

In other words, there are many things that God hasn't revealed to the church at large, and if someone receives such a revelation, they are commanded to keep it to themselves until the Lord sees fit to tell everyone. Jonny's verse explains more on why this is so.

 

[SoyLeche]

Many Mormons believe that they will be gods of their own planets someday, but it's not part of our doctrine.

For the record: I personally think it will be of their own Universe, not merely a planet.

Anyway, on with the show...

 

[Bishka]

He tries to make it out like Mormons are christians. If you do consider yourselves that, you deviate from all other known christian denominations by a mile.

Perhaps we are not mainstream Christians, but we are Christians nonetheless. We worship and praise Jesus Christ as our Saviour. We could start another "Are Mormons Christian" thread, but that has been done to death.

Why are there any secrets from the public? 12 Million plus huh, Well, that is another misleading truth. Lets look at the real facts shall we.

Yes, why don't we. There are more then just the United States you know. There are more members of the LDS Church living outside the United States of America then in. There are 12 million+ members living this little place we call the Earth. We have never claimed them to be only in Utah or the US. Adherents.com ranks us #4 in the US I believe.

Within the next three years, the Mormon share of Utah's population is expected to hit its lowest level since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints started keeping membership numbers. And if current trends continue, LDS residents no longer will constitute a majority by 2030.

That is UTAH, not the United States and not the world. To assume otherwise is plain ignorance on your part- - and a bit of stupidity.

r religion to most is considered to be a hokey cult. If it makes you happy then more power to you, just quit trying to promote it to people and make it sound better than it really is.

We love you too.

 

[Bishka]

Membership numbers for the LDS Church as of 1 October 2006 (from the Statistical Profile of the LDS Church): 12,7891,000
Membership (31 December 2005):
In the US and Canada : 5,863,105
Outside US and Canada : 6,597,764


If you would like, I could break it down by country and state.

From wikipedia.org

Current membership

See also: Membership history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints The Church reports a worldwide membership of 12,868,606[1] (as of December 31, 2006) with approximately 6.7 million residing outside the United States. According to these statistics it is the fourth largest religious body in the United States.[83] The church membership report includes all baptized members and also "children of record"—unbaptized children under the age of nine. (Children are not baptized before the age of eight.) Although the church does not release attendance figures to the public, researchers estimate that actual attendance at weekly LDS worshsip services globally is around 4 million.[84] Members living in the U.S. and Canada constitute 47% of membership, Latin America 36%, and members in the rest of the world 17%.[1] A Survey by the City College of New York in 2001 extrapolated that there were 2,787,000 self-identified LDS adults in the United States in 2001, an increase of 1.3% over their 1991 survey, making the LDS Church the 10th-largest religious body in their phone survey of over 50,000 households.[85]

Link here

 

[NomyRomy]

Yes, why don't we. There are more then just the United States you know. There are more members of the LDS Church living outside the United States of America then in. There are 12 million+ members living this little place we call the Earth. We have never claimed them to be only in Utah or the US. Adherents.com ranks us #4 in the US I believe.
That is UTAH, not the United States and not the world. To assume otherwise is plain ignorance on your part- - and a bit of stupidity.

Well, thank God they are mostly not in this country, but I hardly think that claiming those that have converted to mormonism for food are real mormons. If I was starving and I had to take a book of mormon to feed my family I would take it. By the way, that is a map of the United States, don't mormons teach that in their schools? One more thing, I have been in Salt Lake City for a while and its not the mormon haven as you guys like to think. Out of the 40+ people I polled, none of them were mormons, and the responses I got from them all was either complete loathing to thinking you guys were complete nutts.

 

[DeepShadow]

12 Million plus huh, Well, that is another misleading truth. Lets look at the real facts shall we.

Salt Lake City Tribune:
Within the next three years, the Mormon share of Utah's population is expected to hit its lowest level since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints started keeping membership numbers. And if current trends continue, LDS residents no longer will constitute a majority by 2030.

This real fact supports Katzpur's claim that first-generation converts comprise the vast majority. That is, we will no longer comprise a majority of Utah; ergo, the 12 million plus membership (which you call a truth) must be growing faster through converts than thorugh children.

Not only are they on the decline, but they are limited to a very small part of the US, not everywhere as you guys like to try and mislead people to think.

Where have we done the misleading? You're the one suggesting that if Mormons cease to be a majority in Utah, they will vanish entirely.

US Census map:

Also, you guys post so many contradictions in what you really believe it is hard to keep up. Maybe due to the fact that your beliefs change to regular to keep up with, who knows.

Ante up some contradictions please.

So, I would just like to see you guys stop trying to play the victim all the time.

I'd like to see you stop trying to misrepresent our beliefs (and now our actual statements), thanks.

Your religion to most is considered to be a hokey cult.

Point?

If it makes you happy then more power to you, just quit trying to promote it to people and make it sound better than it really is.

ROTFL!

In one post, you committed more cherry picking, ad hominim, and non sequitur than I have seen in such a small sspace. Pardon me if I don't take your advice on how to promote myself.

 

[Bishka]

Well, thank God they are mostly not in this country, but I hardly think that claiming those that have converted to mormonism for food are real mormons. If I was starving and I had to take a book of mormon to feed my family I would take it.

Pardon? We give food, shelter, and assistance regardless of race, color, ethnic group or religion. No one has to 'covert' to our faith to receive anything from us.

By the way, that is a map of the United States, don't mormons teach that in their schools? One more thing, I have been in Salt Lake City for a while and its not the mormon haven as you guys like to think. Out of the 40+ people I polled, none of them were mormons, and the responses I got from them all was either complete loathing to thinking you guys were complete nutts.

That is Salt Lake City -- there are more LDS in the suburbs then in the actual city.

 

[DeepShadow]

Well, thank God they are mostly not in this country, but I hardly think that claiming those that have converted to mormonism for food are real mormons.

Proof, please?

If I was starving and I had to take a book of mormon to feed my family I would take it.

So would I. Please cite a source that ties out aid programs to missionary work. I can tell you now, we don't do this. We give aid to anyone who needs it, irrespective of how they view our church.

By the way, that is a map of the United States, don't mormons teach that in their schools?

Teach what in their schools?

One more thing, I have been in Salt Lake City for a while and its not the mormon haven as you guys like to think.

You're 0 for 5 on predicting what we think. I recommend you start asking us instead of predicting. It's widely spoken among Mormons that SLC is not a "Mormon haven."

Out of the 40+ people I polled, none of them were mormons, and the responses I got from them all was either complete loathing to thinking you guys were complete nutts.

And that should surprise us...why?

 

[NomyRomy]

That is Salt Lake City -- there are more LDS in the suburbs then in the actual city.

Damn, they drove you out of your town too?

 

[Bishka]

Damn, they drove you out of your town too?

What are you talking about?