War: the Pope says that mankind is in danger; strive for peace

[YoursTrue]

In my opinion, the Bible is the ideal example to illustrate the ferocity of war or violence in general, whether its stories are factual or not, or whether they are copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other ancient pagan religions that preceded it. For instance, 1 Samuel 15:3 states that God commanded the Israelites to attack and not spare the Amalekites (killing every man, woman, child, newborn, and animal and destroying everything that belonged to them). And Psalm 137:9 states, "Happy is the one who seizes your children and smashes them against the rocks." So much for the biblical commandment of "Thou shalt not kill." In my opinion, the God of the Bible apparently has the mentality of "Do as I say, not as I do," making him the most hypocritical (detestable and barbarous) figure known to mankind. This article, "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits," has several other instances of severe violence in the Bible.

And I think that this article, "God as the original terrorist: 6 ways the Bible condones horrendous acts of brutality," should be read by every Christian who has the audacity to attack the Quran for its violence. In my opinion, the Christians who pompously criticize Islam and judge Muslims do not have the moral ground to cast stones. In my opinion, I don't think people should read the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, if they want to learn about righteous moral behavior. Personally, I don't think that the following incidents from the Bible serve as examples of righteous moral behavior: forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist; smashing the heads of infants against the rocks; ordering the execution of witches; God commanding his "chosen people" to kill an entire population of foreign nations for their land in a conquest to possess a "promised land," or God being irrationally angry and killing every living creature and eradicating the entire human race by drowning every living being (except for one family) in a worldwide flood, thus committing global genocide.

Interesting. So you think death is terrorism? Even if we're not murdered, you think death is terrifying? What do you think? After all -- somehow the jails are filled with lots of criminals...and many criminals are not in jail. Or prison, are they.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Why are the Ukrainians not the innocent victims of war?

What in your opinion should they have done instead?

Why are you opposed to opposing aggressors?

How does it benefit anyone who opposes war to see people like Putin win?

Please spell it out for me.

Once again you are putting words in my mouth. Perhaps this is because you consider a consciously adversarial tone to be appropriate when discussing war. I am not persuaded such a tone is conducive to anything but conflict; dialogue is challenging in such circumstances, and at some point dialogue is always required to end wars.

Your confrontational approach to this conversation notwithstanding, I will try to answer your questions. Belligerence is not your usual style, after all. Perhaps you have been afflicted with war fever; that can happen to us all, for the emotions born of violence, even violence thousands of miles away, can be highly contagious.

I quite clearly said I support all innocent victims of war, from Ukraine to Yemen.

As for what might have been done differently, perhaps NATO should not have extended it’s frontiers relentlessly westward since 1989.

I am not opposed to opposing aggressors. I question the value of meeting violence with violence.

In war, no one wins. The victor only appears to do so. Did the allies win in 1918? If so, why was Europe at war again 20 years later?
When this conflict ends, hopefully with Putin’s removal - and I do hope he is removed, preferably by his own people - do you think his removal will resolve all issues between Russia and Ukraine? The roots of that conflict go back 500 years. And please bear in mind that in the 18th and 19th centuries Russia fought Turkey, Britain, and France for control of the Crimea. Do you think any Russian leader, even one palatable to western powers, will accept it’s loss? Learn some history, my friend.

None of this is to excuse Putin. I consider him a thug and a gangster who has turned Russia into a kleptocracy. A kleptocracy the West - particularly Britain, my own country - has been happy to do business with for decades; London is awash with dirty Russian money, as it is awash with dirty Saudi money.

Lastly, I don’t claim to have all the answers. By inclination, I am a pacifist. I’m also in the very loosest sense, a Christian, like your Joe Biden. Since the conversion of Constantine, the Christian churches and their adherents have tended to disregard Matthew 5:38-40. But maybe the answers to your questions lie in the sermon on the mount.

Leo Tolstoy wrote quite widely on the subject of Christian pacifism, and kept up a correspondence with Mahatma Ghandi on the subject of non violent resistance. Time, perhaps, to revisit the ideas of Tolstoy and Ghandi.

 

[blü 2]

I am not opposed to opposing aggressors. I question the value of meeting violence with violence.

This seems to pinpoint the issue.

What are you saying the Ukrainians should have done instead of offering armed resistance?

How should they have opposed aggression without meeting violence with violence?

 

[RestlessSoul]

This seems to pinpoint the issue.

What are you saying the Ukrainians should have done instead of offering armed resistance?

How should they have opposed aggression without meeting violence with violence?

Firstly, It’s not for me to advocate what Ukraine should or should not do. I’ve no idea how I would have responded in their situation. I am not Ukrainian, therefore I have no investment, material or emotional, in this war, unless I choose to make one. I do not choose to do so.

I do not support my government in arming parties to global conflict, wherever that may be. I do support any efforts on the part of neutral governments - let’s remember NATO members are not at war, therefore neutral - to bring about a peaceful resolution to this or any other conflict.

All that said, I refer you again to the Gospel link in my previous post, and the references to the active pacifism of Tolstoy and Ghandi. Which I intend to investigate more actively myself, because as I say, I do not claim to have all the answers. I don’t have to turn up to every war in the world and pick a side btw

 

[Valjean]

I just wonder, since according to the theory of evolution -- why worry, since everything dies anyway? Right?

Huh? What does the ToE have to do with this?

I think your point is more congruent with Christianity, which teaches that we're in but not of the world; that earthly life is just a short testing and refinement stage, and that our real, permanent existence is in Heaven, with God.

Well now, let's see -- when do YOU think murder and hatred began among humans? Any idea?

Murder began after the first law against it appeared. Murder is illegal killing.
Hatred was probably not common before people organized into specialized, hierarchical societies, in which one's social status or accumulated wealth could be threatened by another.

Throughout most of our history, everyone was pretty much equal and noöne had accumulated wealth or property. In-band members might occasionally annoy each other, but there was little to generate actual hatred. Out-groups might compete for food, but they were no different from four-leggèd competitors, ie: annoyances. You killed them when you got the chance, but you didn't hate them.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Well now, let's see -- when do YOU think murder and hatred began among humans? Any idea?

How can that possibly have anything to do with a living person (one of only 4 on the planet) named Cain killing a brother named Abel, before finding himself a wife who mysteriously appears out of nowhere?

I would presume, since it is known that apes kill other apes occasionally, right down to this day, that the ancestors of humans, and early hominids, and homo sapiens have continued to do so. But they weren't writing down their names, or taking photographs or videos of the deeds, so I can't really be sure when the very first actual human killed another. Made up stories are still made up stories.

 

[blü 2]

Firstly, It’s not for me to advocate what Ukraine should or should not do. I’ve no idea how I would have responded in their situation. I am not Ukrainian, therefore I have no investment, material or emotional, in this war, unless I choose to make one. I do not choose to do so.

I'm not Ukrainian either, as it happens. But they're the ones being invaded. You constantly state that war is bad / wrong and I agree.

But it still seems to me that what you're proposing will if put into practice actually encourage war because avoiding war by not defending yourself rewards the aggressor.

let’s remember NATO members are not at war, therefore neutral - to bring about a peaceful resolution to this or any other conflict.

First, I hope they succeed. Second, if Putin had attacked them, they'd all be at war ─ which is why he didn't.

All that said, I refer you again to the Gospel link in my previous post, and the references to the active pacifism of Tolstoy and Ghandi.

I recall Tolstoy's advocacy but I can't recall any occasion where it actually changed the real world. Ghandi's plan can be seen as a successful shaming of a powerful but hugely outnumbered conqueror (who created modern India and modern Pakistan in a form that otherwise would never have happened. to give the devil his due).

Neither will solve Ukraine's problems, of course, not that you suggested they would. But military action has been successful so far.
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[RestlessSoul]

I'm not Ukrainian either, as it happens. But they're the ones being invaded. You constantly state that war is bad / wrong and I agree.

But it still seems to me that what you're proposing will if put into practice actually encourage war because avoiding war by not defending yourself rewards the aggressor.
First, I hope they succeed. Second, if Putin had attacked them, they'd all be at war ─ which is why he didn't.
I recall Tolstoy's advocacy but I can't recall any occasion where it actually changed the real world. Ghandi's plan can be seen as a successful shaming of a powerful but hugely outnumbered conqueror (who created modern India and modern Pakistan in a form that otherwise would never have happened. to give the devil his due).

Neither will solve Ukraine's problems, of course, not that you suggested they would. But military action has been successful so far.
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Well now. The Tolstoyan movement, committed to non violent resistance to Tsarist tyranny, began to break up after 1905. The increased use of state terror against it’s own population drove most of Russia’s liberal activists in the direction of those revolutionaries committed to the violent overthrow of Nicholas II regime.

The great man himself died in 1910. Russia chose the path of violence, and subsequently endured a century of bloodshed and sorrow. Somewhat ironically, I would say, Lenin paid tribute to Tolstoy’s part in inspiring the spirit of revolution. I don’t see any of that as Tolstoy’s failure.

I don’t know what the future holds for Russia or for Ukraine. I hope it’s an improvement on the past, for the populations of both regions. I know you think plucky little Ukraine is winning the war, but as I have already said, I’m not sure wars are ever won.

In the meantime, in Afghanistan and what’s left of Iraq it may be a century at least, if humanity has that long, before the people there recover from the efforts of the US and her allies to bring peace and freedom to their regions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So your solution to the Russian invasion of Ukraine is .... ?

...for Russians to rise up and eliminate the corrupt elites, which are really just a bunch of old soviets with nostalgic frustrations.

Which is to say, a revolution is required where Russian people put bullets in the heads of Putin, Lavrov, Peskov, ...and all the other Soviet war criminals.

It can only be done by the Russians. Even if a secret NATO ops team goes in and succeeds in killing them... that won't do. Then they will be martyrs. It's a Russian problem and it needs to be dealt with by Russians or it won't end.

Unfortunately, this Russian problem has crossed the borders of Russia, making things a lot more complex.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I’m sure the war will be very grateful for your support.

I can assure you that Ukrainians are very grateful for the support of the world against a barbaric invasion.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No, I didn’t say any of that. It might be helpful if you were to stop putting words in my mouth.

I withhold my support from NATO, the US government, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, and assorted interested parties. The jury is still out on Zelenskyy. He may be a good servant to his people, time will tell.

I offer unequivocal support to all the innocent victims of war, from Ukraine to Yemen to Gaza, and to all those in Russia with the courage to oppose war and to refuse to fight.

But this support is only "symbolic" or "spiritual" in nature? In the "ow dear, i'll pray for them!" way? You think this helps them in any way?
Since you seem to be against actually supporting them in their fight.

 

[RestlessSoul]

But this support is only "symbolic" or "spiritual" in nature? In the "ow dear, i'll pray for them!" way? You think this helps them in any way?
Since you seem to be against actually supporting them in their fight.

What support have you provided, may I ask? Beyond cheering from thousands of miles away, that is...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, I didn’t say any of that. It might be helpful if you were to stop putting words in my mouth.

I withhold my support from NATO, the US government, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, and assorted interested parties. The jury is still out on Zelenskyy. He may be a good servant to his people, time will tell.

I offer unequivocal support to all the innocent victims of war, from Ukraine to Yemen to Gaza, and to all those in Russia with the courage to oppose war and to refuse to fight.

Who are assorted interested parties?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What support have you provided, may I ask? Beyond cheering from thousands of miles away, that is...

I will vote as a citizen on a party that backs Ukraine in my country's up coming election. Due to personal circumstances that what I can do now.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I will vote as a citizen on a party that backs Ukraine in my country's up coming election. Due to personal circumstances that what I can do now.

Fair enough. At the next General Election in the UK, I'll be voting for the local candidate who best represents the interests of working people in my own country, because we are in crisis here. The rich and powerful are laughing at us; we have a government totally pandering to the whim of the international oligarchy. Getting rid of them is my only priority, Ukraine won't be on my radar when it comes to the election. Refugees from conflicts around the world will be though.

 

[blü 2]

Well now. The Tolstoyan movement, committed to non violent resistance to Tsarist tyranny, began to break up after 1905. The increased use of state terror against it’s own population drove most of Russia’s liberal activists in the direction of those revolutionaries committed to the violent overthrow of Nicholas II regime.

The great man himself died in 1910. Russia chose the path of violence, and subsequently endured a century of bloodshed and sorrow. Somewhat ironically, I would say, Lenin paid tribute to Tolstoy’s part in inspiring the spirit of revolution. I don’t see any of that as Tolstoy’s failure.

I don’t know what the future holds for Russia or for Ukraine. I hope it’s an improvement on the past, for the populations of both regions. I know you think plucky little Ukraine is winning the war, but as I have already said, I’m not sure wars are ever won.

In the meantime, in Afghanistan and what’s left of Iraq it may be a century at least, if humanity has that long, before the people there recover from the efforts of the US and her allies to bring peace and freedom to their regions.

You didn't address what I think was the important part of my post:

But it still seems to me that what you're proposing will if put into practice actually encourage war because avoiding war by not defending yourself rewards the aggressor.
​

In other words, if you want peace, prepare for war. Neither Tolstoy nor Ghandi seem to me to offer anything that can be used to end the Ukraine war. What's needed is for the Russians to stop attacking and go home; and since that's not happening, what alternative do you see to continued military resistance until they do?

 

[YoursTrue]

Huh? What does the ToE have to do with this?

I think your point is more congruent with Christianity, which teaches that we're in but not of the world; that earthly life is just a short testing and refinement stage, and that our real, permanent existence is in Heaven, with God.
Murder began after the first law against it appeared. Murder is illegal killing.
Hatred was probably not common before people organized into specialized, hierarchical societies, in which one's social status or accumulated wealth could be threatened by another.

Throughout most of our history, everyone was pretty much equal and noöne had accumulated wealth or property. In-band members might occasionally annoy each other, but there was little to generate actual hatred. Out-groups might compete for food, but they were no different from four-leggèd competitors, ie: annoyances. You killed them when you got the chance, but you didn't hate them.

according to the ToE, everything dies, and war and destruction are part of the process, so why worry or think that mankind can change itself by good thinking.

 

[YoursTrue]

How can that possibly have anything to do with a living person (one of only 4 on the planet) named Cain killing a brother named Abel, before finding himself a wife who mysteriously appears out of nowhere?

I would presume, since it is known that apes kill other apes occasionally, right down to this day, that the ancestors of humans, and early hominids, and homo sapiens have continued to do so. But they weren't writing down their names, or taking photographs or videos of the deeds, so I can't really be sure when the very first actual human killed another. Made up stories are still made up stories.

I didn't read that there were only 4 people on the planet at that time. You probably know that Adam & Eve had more children than Cain and Abel, right? Meantime, do you really think that mankind has been so kind to each other over the centuries?

 

[YoursTrue]

Huh? What does the ToE have to do with this?

I think your point is more congruent with Christianity, which teaches that we're in but not of the world; that earthly life is just a short testing and refinement stage, and that our real, permanent existence is in Heaven, with God.
Murder began after the first law against it appeared. Murder is illegal killing.
Hatred was probably not common before people organized into specialized, hierarchical societies, in which one's social status or accumulated wealth could be threatened by another.

Throughout most of our history, everyone was pretty much equal and noöne had accumulated wealth or property. In-band members might occasionally annoy each other, but there was little to generate actual hatred. Out-groups might compete for food, but they were no different from four-leggèd competitors, ie: annoyances. You killed them when you got the chance, but you didn't hate them.

In that sense, there is death, and then there is death by murder or accident. Not just old age, right?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What support have you provided, may I ask? Beyond cheering from thousands of miles away, that is...

I happily accept the economic pains that are the direct result of my country engaging with the rest of the world in sanctions against Russia, as well as governmental donations of military equipment. And I encourage them to continue in doing so till the bitter end.

I have also volunteered to help out with Ukrainian refugees that ended up in our region. I also played a free gig with my band at a fundraiser for those refugees, with another one coming up in a couple of weeks.

I do what I can.



I note that you didn't actually answer the question I asked.