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[Falvlun]

I'm extremely claims like this.

You realize that the same is said of the apostle Paul - by both feminists, liberals, and conservative biblical interpreters. That Galatians 3:28 and some other verses demonstrate that Paul was some kind of feminist visionary. But when one carefully looks at Paul within his time, he does absolutely nothing for the advancement of women - everything is perfectly within the cultural context, even in light of laws and ideals that seemingly forbid the practice. Even in Christianity, this argument says that the earliest Pauline Christians were "feminists" and later Christians backtracked.

I think that the glorification of ancient men as liberators of women is either an attempt to make these men acceptable to us, give them more credit than they deserve, or it's just downright false.

In any case, it is definately a pattern in history for people to make up myths about their great leaders, attributing to them some positive ideals concerning women, children, and slaves.

Or maybe they were great religious leaders because they tended to have radical viewpoints? Or, rather than a causation, simple correlation: Great religious leaders also tended to have radical views on social systems.

My information about Muhammed comes solely from one book: Karen Armstrong's Muhammed: A Prophet for our Time. It seemed to be a balanced, academic biography of Muhammed and the religion he founded. But, since it is a sample of one, I can't really say for sure.

I wish I had the book with me for direct quotes. Some concrete things I remember regarding women was his advocacy that they be allowed to control their dowry/inheritence rather than it being handed over to the man, and therefore, also advocating their ability to own property. He encouraged his wives to speak up, voice their opinions and concerns. And he listened when women in the Muslim community asked to be included within the religion. And this verse was the result:

Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

It may not seem a lot to us now, and there were other things he did (or did not) advocate that would make many a moderate feminist cringe, but for his day and age, these things were unheard of.

 

[Father Heathen]

For example, let's say I go to France, and someone comes up and kisses me on the cheek. If I were unprepared for this, I might think this is sexual assault because, in America, that's a VERY intimate thing; thus, I would experience some level of trauma. However, over there, it's perfectly normal.

You don't see a difference between a misunderstanding over an innocent kiss, and someone violently restraining a struggling, screaming, crying victim while forcefully penetrating them? And to suggest that their reaction; feelings of fear, hurt, violation, etc. are all learned from culture rather than the natural psychological effects of the experience itself is quite simply a slap to the face of victims of sexual abuse/assault.
I have to admit that this thread has made me extremely disappointed with the integrity of the general RF community.

 

[Father Heathen]

Of course I have, I believe we have gone through this before. Have we not?

Are we going to have a repeat of an earlier conversation? If so I'm just going to copy and paste it in a post to prevent from having this again.

Your repetition wouldn't make up for your lack of substance.

If you refuse to approach this conversation at the level of rationality expected of those that are debating the subject, instead of holding to a close minded point of view, then simply move away from the thread and allow those who wish to exchange their ideas do so. If you have a point to make. Make it.

I don't know if it makes sense to call accepting what is supported by evidence and rejecting what is contrary to evidence being "close minded". Should I trust the academic studies of professionals in the field of psychology and sociology, or the mental gymnastics of random anonymous people on the internet?

 

[YmirGF]

My information about Muhammed comes solely from one book: Karen Armstrong's Muhammed: A Prophet for our Time. It seemed to be a balanced, academic biography of Muhammed and the religion he founded. But, since it is a sample of one, I can't really say for sure.

Karen Armstrong: The Coherence of Her Incoherence > Hugh Fitzgerald

 

[Songbird]

There are some studies that suggest children of that age often make full recoveries and aren't maladjusted because of it. I'm not saying it makes it right, as in that situation the child is being taken advantage of, but some suggest it be called child-sexual-relationships because the child seems to recover. I can try and find the references for it.

I'm interested in those references. There are some clear exceptions, for sure, but most societies don't approve of adult relations with a prepubescent child. I'm curious what the power structures are like in the studies you mentioned. My guess is in cultures where it's accepted, power structures are very authoritarian, with conformity being highly valued. In our society where independence is highly valued, roles are delineated and authority can be challenged. Part of the abhorrence of pedophilia is the violation of authority roles, which may not be a factor in authoritarian societies.

But cultural considerations aside, children aren't even physically capable of most of the acts of sex. Orgasm, ejaculation, even penetration isn't possible for most until a certain age. Even in newly pubescent girls, pregnancy is dangerous. The highest maternal death rate is for girls under 15. Their bodies aren't formed enough to withstand pregnancy and labor, despite being old enough to conceive.

In that light, I can't shrug off adult-child sexuality as comparable to cultural differences in general. Some cultural differences are contestable because they have been proven to be harmful.

 

[Riverwolf]

You don't see a difference between a misunderstanding over an innocent kiss, and someone violently restraining a struggling, screaming, crying victim while forcefully penetrating them? And to suggest that their reaction; feelings of fear, hurt, violation, etc. are all learned from culture rather than the natural psychological effects of the experience itself is quite simply a slap to the face of victims of sexual abuse/assault.
I have to admit that this thread has made me extremely disappointed with the integrity of the general RF community.

Do I need to sick Picard on you too? Read my whole post.

 

[Riverwolf]

Not that it matters: child rape isn't the topic of this thread; Mohammad's consensual marriage with Aisha is.

There is every indication that is was consensual (and because it was normal at the time, not coercion), and that Aisha was not traumatized at all.

 

[Photonic]

Not that it matters: child rape isn't the topic of this thread; Mohammad's consensual marriage with Aisha is.

There is every indication that is was consensual (and because it was normal at the time, not coercion), and that Aisha was not traumatized at all.

I didn't bother to point that out because they don't seem to care about the context of the conversation.

 

[Riverwolf]

I didn't bother to point that out because they don't seem to care about the context of the conversation.

Well, it happens in these hot-topic threads. Someone brings up an addendum to the original argument, and suddenly it becomes the main topic of the thread because it's even more heated.

 

[krsnaraja]

What if the story was a reverse of the actual version. That it was Aisha with consent who raped Muhammad. Who was that who said truth is stranger than fiction?

 

[Riverwolf]

What if the story was a reverse of the actual version. That it was Aisha with consent who raped Muhammad. Who was that who said truth is stranger than fiction?

...kind of a big "what if". Where did that come from?

 

[McBell]

I have to admit that this thread has made me extremely disappointed with the integrity of the general RF community.

Why?
Is it because there are those on RF who are not content at merely taking your word that Mohammed raped her?
What evidence have you that it was not consensual?

I mean you keep going on and on presenting information about rape victims, but you have not once presented anything other than your personal opinion that it was a rape, yet you go on and on as if you have presented a video that clearly indicates that it was a full blown rape.

For all you know, and can prove, Mohamed merely took her into another room and they played Euchre all night and everyone merely ASSUMED that they did the mattress mamba.

Not only were you not there, but you were not around during that time to understand the attitudes they had towards sex, marriage, etc.

Your whole argument/position is based solely on your own personal feelings and emotional responses based upon modern day biases, prejudices, conditioning, and experiences.

Yet you are disappointed that not everyone merely took up your emotionally charged flag and ran with it?

 

[McBell]

What if the story was a reverse of the actual version. That it was Aisha with consent who raped Muhammad. Who was that who said truth is stranger than fiction?

um...
seems to me that "with consent" and "rape" make your statement contradictory upon itself.

 

[krsnaraja]

um...
seems to me that "with consent" and "rape" make your statement contradictory upon itself.

With consent from her parents. Since she was just minor.

 

[McBell]

With consent from her parents. Since she was just minor.

Oh.
Well..
Nevermind.

*runs to wipe egg off face*

 

[krsnaraja]

Oh.
Well..
Nevermind.

*runs to wipe egg off face*

Was hoping to get a free bonus spin.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It's funny that people are arguing that's it's okay as long as a nine year old doesn't think she was abused or raped. The point is - and I don't care what time your from - if you're a grown man who is sexually attracted to a nine year old, there's something wrong with you.

 

[Photonic]

It's funny that people are arguing that's it's okay as long as a nine year old doesn't think she was abused or raped. The point is - and I don't care what time your from - if you're a grown man who is sexually attracted to a nine year old, there's something wrong with you.

Are you a man?

It's so easy to take a point of view when you do not understand the other side of the argument.

 

[Riverwolf]

It's funny that people are arguing that's it's okay as long as a nine year old doesn't think she was abused or raped. The point is - and I don't care what time your from - if you're a grown man who is sexually attracted to a nine year old, there's something wrong with you.

Like 90% of men up until very recently?

If something is wrong with someone, that means that this person is abnormal; i.e., not normal. Normal is defined as the majority. Therefore, how can the majority be the ones who are not normal?

Besides, as I pointed out earlier, it's very likely that Aisha started puberty early, thus having the physical maturity of, say, a 13 year old. It happens sometimes. 13 year olds were married with sexual relationships all the time up until about a century ago.

 

[Riverwolf]

Are you a man?

It's so easy to take a point of view when you do not understand the other side of the argument.

Yes, he is, actually. Gender is shown in the upper right of a post.