Was Islam spread by the sword?

[outhouse]

Quranic verses are rational verses; they fit on the situation and occasion.

Regards

Factually in primitive and barbaric times, yes.

There is not "rational" when faced with education and knowledge, science or history.

 

[FearGod]

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

That's part of the preamble to the Hamas charter/covenant by the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood,love and peace.

So you don't think that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands, and for you Israel is a wonderful peaceful country and Palestinians are oppressors.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

So you don't think that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands, and for you Israel is a wonderful peaceful country and Palestinians are oppressors.

Are you a Palestinian
Why learn hostility to Israel
Israel has not committed 20 percent of blunders committed by Islamic daash against Christians in Mosul

A State exercising its right of self-defence
Better search for peace between Palestinians and Israelis
Away from the Qur'an

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Do you know how income of AMR Ibn al-' AAS Palestine
Do you know what are the origins of the Palestinians
Did the Palestinian Arabs
Did the Palestinians know Islam
Does the dome of the rock
Is an Islamic mosque built by Muhammad
The date when the big twist
Does the Palestine issue Islamic
Or a regional issue
Anyone who wants peace must raise slogans and verses written in Qur'an hatred against Jews

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in South Africa: [6]

Islam in South Africa is a minority religion, practiced by less than 1.5% of the total population, according to estimates.

History

New rise in conversions

According to converts quoted by the Christian Science Monitor, their biggest reason for the dramatic rise in Islam is that the religion is a refuge from sex, AIDS,alcoholism, and domestic violence that is rampant in the black townships, where the greatest rates of conversions are seen. It is estimated that Islam is the largest religion of conversion in South Africa.[9]

Islam grew by sixfold in thirteen years, during the time from 1991 to 2004.[10]

Even though organizations such as IPCI, the Islamic Dawah Movement of South Africa, and the Africa Muslim Agency have been eager to proselytize in the region, there have been other civic organizations such as the MYMSA and the Call of Islam who considered other approaches to weave Islam into the social fabric of South Africa as a more significant way of making the Muslims' presence conspicuous.

According Michael Mumisa, a researcher and writer on African Islam, there has been an increase in the number of black South Africans converting to Islam particularly among the women and the youth. He believes that for some of the youth and women who were schooled in the politics of South African resistance and confrontation with the security forces of the former Apartheid state, the acceptance of Islam has become part of a radical rejection of a society based on Christian principles which are seen as having been responsible for establishing and promoting the Apartheid doctrine through the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa.

The influence of the radical ideas espoused by Malcolm X is very evident among South African Muslims of all races. Branches of the Nation of Islam are already established in South Africa. Louis Farrakhan paid a visit to South Africa and was received by President Nelson Mandela and African Muslim communities.

Another Reason has been the presence of a growing Number of Sufi Orders and Groups.[citation needed] Amongst these is theMurabitun, a group that has a strong following in Spain.

Islam in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in South Africa.

Regards

 

[1robin]

So you don't think that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands, and for you Israel is a wonderful peaceful country and Palestinians are oppressors.

There are no, never were any, and thanks to the Palestinian probably never will be any Palestinian lands. They had a chance to gain land they had no right to but chose violence instead. At least the Islamic Palestinians did, the Christina Palestinians are far more content with what they never owned to begin with.

 

[1robin]

I think you're indulging in the fantasy of an "Imperial Presidency". The position of president is powerful, yes, but it isn't equivalent to an elected king. You are trying to give a personality to his policies. This is misguided. He, alone, does not decide on official policies. The actual individual that becomes president does not matter quite a much as you think. They are, in essence, figure heads for their party and it is certain circles within their political party that collectively decide on policies. The president, himself, isn't entirely responsible for his policies, as it is not he that comes up with them. How could he? In today's world, it is only natural that one would trust the various experts one consults, instead of doing simply what one personally feels to be best.

I sure wish I overestimated the damage being done to this nation. However powerful a president may normally be this one has made sure to add to that [power by side stepping congress and ignoring the constitution. When you can take over 1/6th of the economy in the face of 60% of the population being opposed you have al the power you need. But it was not really his power I was commenting on. It was his ideology. I wanted to make it clear why he does what he does, not just list scandals like the IRS, running guns in Mexico, the police he insulted without having any facts at the time, the failure of border security, EPA, HHS, NSA, negotiating with terrorists, losing Iraq, Bergdahl, VA, Benghazi, the Census, etc.... Everyone knows about these and the hundreds like them what I did not know was why they were done.

Furthermore, I am seeing a trend here. You prefer to think of things in a narrative fashion, yes? You see history as a story, with events that have clear motives and, if not "good" factions and "bad" factions, then at least with fundamentally "better" and "worse" factions. This would explain why you ascribe so much responsibility for historical events on individuals, such as American presidents.

Well history is the ultimate story and all actions have motivations. Some times those motivations are hard to see but if we do not learn from the past we will repeat it. As far as factions go the Christian view is that we are all on the bad end of the scale. I agree that varying degrees of bad exist. However actions or motivations can and are either good or bad and also have degrees to them.

1. That European Christians were primarily the "good" faction and superior culture in history, up until the early modern age when the colonies of the Christian countries broke away, with many becoming democracies. They then became the primary "Good" faction in history.

Kind of I guess. The only meaningful issue here is that God is a net gain and if you actually look for good in Christianity you will find more of it there than any other similar group. Though you will also find much that is bad. IOW the world looks like the world I would expect if the bible is true.

2. That the Arab, Saharan, Persian, and Turkish Muslims were, primarily, a "bad" faction in history, generally. You have even stated that "Christianity is good which occasionally does bad, while Islam is fundamentally bad but occasionally does good."

That would depend on time frames. Some times in some places they could be viewed as the good guys but over all Islam has had a terrible effect over all. The greatest genocide in history was Islamic, the most totalitarian countries are Islamic, the most violent regions are Islamic, etc.....

3. That anything "good" that any western culture has ever done has been because of their religion. Even if the person was not religious, the very fact that they were raised in a Christian culture accounts for their accomplishment.

Now this I never said. Did not even hint at. I said a culture with Christianity in it's foundation should produce more good than those that do not and that is exactly what I find.

Do you realize that if the word "Christian" was changed to European and the word "Muslim" was changed to "middle eastern" that these views could be considered bigoted?

I don't know the purpose of such an effort but I do not play political correctness. Things are what they are and calling the admission to fact socially unfashionable is a lie covering a lie. I will happily admit sins that are inconvenient for myself as well. For example I am an American Indian yet know very well we had no romantic and chivalric idea about the land. We stole it from other Indians and then objected when Europe tried to do so with our. I condemn the Inquisitions, crusades, and witch trials. I call things what they are.

Moving on, you are aware that "America 2016" is widely considered to be very partisan and biased, right? There are a large number of films that have capitalized on the fears of the "most generous demographic in history", mid to upper class Christian Americans(mostly of European descent). I am somewhat surprised that you hold the movie in such high esteem. It seems to simply be generic anti-Obama propaganda. I mean, the list of books that the director has written include " Obama's America: Unmaking the American Dream" and "The Roots of Obama's Rage" for Pete's sake!

What used to be on the right side of the left would be called extreme and fringe today. The left has mastered rhetoric like no other group I have heard of except maybe the Nazis. One of the most common and despicable tactics is to simply label something into oblivion. Call fiscal responsibility a lack of compassion, call being against killing lives in the womb as being against women's rights, call anyone who desires a strong military a war monger. It is what you must do if your ides can't win in a level playing field and that art has reached it's zenith in the 21st century USA. Now, even if that film was right of center so what. There can be conservative facts as well as liberal facts. That is what you need to contend with, labeling it with some buzz word then dismissing it is not a debate. It is propaganda. I started this but if you want to continue a political debate we may need a new thread.

"He did about everything wrong I could think of"

Really? You presume to know what is "right" and "wrong" in the incredibly complicated realm of international politics? How vain. Of course, criticizing an elected official is a given right and is healthy, but I find it unfair to judge him as having done "about everything wrong" that you could think of. Aside from the fact that it isn't him, personally, making the decisions on his own, he and his close circle are vastly more informed on the current nature of modern events than the vast majority of us in the public could be. Again, of course it is good to criticize and hold those in power to high standards, but those with such an incredibly important job deserve to, at least, have their decisions respected.

What do you mean how do I presume to know right from wrong? We have more unfunded liabilities that all the money in existence could pay for. In what universe can that be anything other than wrong? If the numbers of those that produce exceed the numbers of those that take how is that ever going to end in a good way, and by the way for the first time we are at that point. How is having a border a mildly retarded elephant could walk through undetected good for security? How is the IRS targeting political groups for political reasons good? You do not have to me a moral Einstein here? I was not exaggerating either. With the exception of a couple of acts against terrorism every decision I am aware of he made has been disgustingly deplorable.

1. I don't blame him for sending the bust of Churchill back. The fact that he fought the bad guys doesn't automatically make him a "good" guy. He was cruel and a bigot and not the type of person to idolize.

He was the man more responsible for the survival of the free world than any other. Mandela received visits paid for by me and had been in jail for possessing weapons of terrorism and supporting communism. Now even if your ignorant (not you specifically) to not understand Churchill's greatness in history and mandala's brutality then at least treat them consistently. Regardless Obama did not send Churchill's bust back because he drank to much or was to hard on some culture somewhere but because he had hassled Obama's agitator ancestors. I was a petty and personal thing even if true. Churchill saved freedom a statue is about the least he deserves even if he was far from perfect at times.

2. The U.K. has become more and more jingoistic and oppressive as time goes on. Likewise with France. Perhaps, we no longer need such "traditional" allies.

I have no idea what Jingoistic means but England is a modern teddy bear compared to what they used to be. At one time no ship in the world could leave harbor without their permission. They used to be true colonialists who would conquer and strip any land they wanted. Of course in the process they brought civilization, law, education, roads, schools, medicine, trade, and military protection. Even with the bad stuff many nations were better off with them than without. Regardless they are in no category whatever as ruthless today as formerly. With our current military we really do not need any Allies but politicians like to feel like they have majority support. The thing we lack is the will to win. We have the most lethal fighting machine ever built and it's leader does not have the moral clarity to let it win. Actually he does even worse, he lets it win then squanders the victory.

 

[1robin]

Is it by screaming or by deeds, so if an atheist doing a bad deed and then he says God is great then you'll be smart enough to understand that he is a muslim because he says those words.

I have a serious question though it may not seem like it. I was watching a video of some terrorist thug in a pickup truck shooting some soviet machine guy at anything in front of his face. He would go bang, bang, bang, Allahu Akbar. Bang, bang, bang, Allahu Akbar. This kept on for five minutes then crack! a British sniper took his head off. This happens in different ways over and over. Ten guys can be shooting at the wind or whatever their aiming at yelling God is great then a 500 pounder turns them into mist. It happens over and over and over. God may be great but he does not appear to be on the terrorists or the Palestinians side. My question is this. How can they keep doing so when this same thing occurs so often? A former PLO terrorist said he was watching Islamic soldiers go by on their way to invade Israel in 1948 with banners flying when he was a child, singing theological songs and chanting God is great. Three days later they came back with no flags, half of them bleeding, and in complete dejection. If half the people including me who yell God is great get whacked the next instant I would start to think the slogan was not worth the trouble. It appears to be a psychosis or peer pressure. IOW if what you say has no bearing on reality then why keep saying it? To be fair I would also have asked the crusaders the same thing but I know their motivation and it was crap as well. What are those people thinking their doing by yelling something that has no effect on anything?

 

[FearGod]

I have a serious question though it may not seem like it. I was watching a video of some terrorist thug in a pickup truck shooting some soviet machine guy at anything in front of his face. He would go bang, bang, bang, Allahu Akbar. Bang, bang, bang, Allahu Akbar. This kept on for five minutes then crack! a British sniper took his head off. This happens in different ways over and over. Ten guys can be shooting at the wind or whatever their aiming at yelling God is great then a 500 pounder turns them into mist. It happens over and over and over. God may be great but he does not appear to be on the terrorists or the Palestinians side. My question is this. How can they keep doing so when this same thing occurs so often? A former PLO terrorist said he was watching Islamic soldiers go by on their way to invade Israel in 1948 with banners flying when he was a child, singing theological songs and chanting God is great. Three days later they came back with no flags, half of them bleeding, and in complete dejection. If half the people including me who yell God is great get whacked the next instant I would start to think the slogan was not worth the trouble. It appears to be a psychosis or peer pressure. IOW if what you say has no bearing on reality then why keep saying it? To be fair I would also have asked the crusaders the same thing but I know their motivation and it was crap as well. What are those people thinking their doing by yelling something that has no effect on anything?

I don't think Islam reached Spain and the far east just because of yelling God is great.

God promised that at the end of times that Israel will be stronger than Muslims and will have control over Jerusalem, so if Muslims will yell for centuries "God is great",nothing will change God's plan.

 

[paarsurrey]

Factually in primitive and barbaric times, yes.

There is not "rational" when faced with education and knowledge, science or history.

There is not "rational" when faced with education and knowledge, science or history.

I don't agree with you.

Regards

 

[1robin]

I don't think Islam reached Spain and the far east just because of yelling God is great.

God promised that at the end of times that Israel will be stronger than Muslims and will have control over Jerusalem, so if Muslims will yell for centuries "God is great",nothing will change God's plan.

So God is great and is on Islam's side even if Islam loses every war with God's people. I can see how someone might hold on to that, I can't see why anyone would want to. Anyway I appreciate you answering an awkward question. I just can't see yelling God is great and every attack fail and the slogan have any meaning after a while. BTW I think the Quran teaches Islam will beat Israel in the end, unfortunately the bible says that is when Christ is coming back and every single nation he is said to war with is Islamic. Christian and Islamic eschatology are almost mirror images.

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in South Africa: [7]

Islam in South Africa is a minority religion, practiced by less than 1.5% of the total population, according to estimates.

History

Political parties

When the first democratic elections took place in April 1994 two Muslim parties emerged, the Africa Muslim Party and the Islamic Party. The AMP contested the National Assembly as well as the provincial legislature and the IP contested only the Western Cape provincial legislature. Neither party was able to secure seats in either legislature.

No representative Muslim party contested the 1999 elections.
The 2004 elections were contested by the AMP and the Peace and Justice Congress, again without success.[11]

Organisations

Besides political parties, a number of Islamic organisations operate in South Africa, looking after various aspects of Muslim life. Major organisations include the Muslim Judicial Council, whose activities include the provision of Halaal certification of food. iiFRi [Islamic Interfaith Research Institute] - Building bridges between the faiths, provides free information on Islam[2].

OODISA [Organizing and Orchestrating Da'wah in Southern Africa] - Uniting through networking, brings together all those propagating Islam in Southern Africa for training and workshops [3]. The South African Hajj and Umrah Council(SAHUC) looks after the needs of South Africa's pilgrims and is responsible for the issuing of Hajj permits. There exist many other local organisations that look after the interests of their communities.[who?][citation needed]

Organisations such as PAGAD have received attention for their fight against the scourge[peacock term] of gangsterism and drugs. PAGAD consisted of mainly Muslim people, but were joined by people from various religions. PAGAD, as the name suggests, was ostensibly formed to combat the rising trends of gangsterism and drug use.

It became known more prominently, however, as proponents of urban terror.[12] They were implicated in over 300 acts of violence, the majority of which involved explosives. PAGAD's operations largely ceased after the arrest and prosecution of its leaders in 2000.[13]

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is also present.

Islam in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in South Africa.

Regards

 

[Shad]

So God is great and is on Islam's side even if Islam loses every war with God's people. I can see how someone might hold on to that, I can't see why anyone would want to. Anyway I appreciate you answering an awkward question. I just can't see yelling God is great and every attack fail and the slogan have any meaning after a while. BTW I think the Quran teaches Islam will beat Israel in the end, unfortunately the bible says that is when Christ is coming back and every single nation he is said to war with is Islamic. Christian and Islamic eschatology are almost mirror images.

This is the same absurd rationalization which Christians use. Good and bad are all part of God's plans. The Israelite are enslaved by Babylon as all part of God's plan.

Pot meet Kettle.

 

[1robin]

This is the same absurd rationalization which Christians use. Good and bad are all part of God's plans. The Israelite are enslaved by Babylon as all part of God's plan.

Pot meet Kettle.

I have already accounted for this. My question was not a systematic theological one but a personal one. Juts the same as it seems futile to think Allah is on Islam's side when they can't defeat a nation they outnumber 80-1 over decades it is arrogant to claim God's wills that Raynald of Châtillon kill Saladin's wife. Having already pointed out what you think is a new revelation I guess let me point out that while Islam's defeats are not part of any predicted prophecy most of Israel's setbacks were.

I am an equal opportunity offender. I can't see why Crusaders thought God would will a loss over plunder or why Allah would desire them to wreck themselves on the population that occupies land the Palestinians have no claim to what so ever. The God's they believe in are irrational and capricious. My God did not include a single verse in the revelation that applies to us that justifies violence for any cause.

I served through two wars but never yelled Allahu Akbar or God wills it, once.

So there was no one sidedness to my post at all but if you want to discuss this in detail you will have to be more specific.



Think on this. If as FearGod suggests Israel was predicted to be the victor in current times by the Quran then every attack against them is either a violation of Allah's will or Allah just likes torturing them. Why would he want an attack that can't succeed and he will not let succeed?

 

[England my lionheart]

So you don't think that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands, and for you Israel is a wonderful peaceful country and Palestinians are oppressors.

I think Israel would like to be at peace but realised a very long time ago that words and logic are a waste of time when it comes to Palestine,palestinians and their allies have been the aggressors for over 80 years but that wasn't the point of my post.

 

[outhouse]

I think Israel would like to be at peace but realised a very long time ago that words and logic are a waste of time when it comes to Palestine,palestinians and their allies have been the aggressors for over 80 years but that wasn't the point of my post.

When were they ever at peace is the real question.

 

[1robin]

When were they ever at peace is the real question.

Why would this be the more relevant statement? I will attempt to answer it anyway.

New International Version
He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

This was about Ishmael who's brothers became the Jews.

I do not see how a prophecy could be better fulfilled. IMO Muhammad had no idea but he even claimed Ishmael was his ancestor. Nothing else really explains the bizarre events in hat area. All of the more mundane petty human failures do not explain this level of contention.

 

[outhouse]

This was about Ishmael who's brothers became the Jews.

I do not see how a prophecy could be better fulfilled. IMO Muhammad had no idea but he even claimed Ishmael was his ancestor. Nothing else really explains the bizarre events in hat area. All of the more mundane petty human failures do not explain this level of contention.

He factually has no historicity as ever existing. Claiming he was a relative would be a lie to the people.


But that does not address the violence in the middle east that has existed for all of written history.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Violence-war-a-greed-the authority-
Murder-crime
In every time and place
We cannot say that the world is not where these issues
The problem is that we operate holken these acts in the name of God
To identify our actions in the name of God
This is the problem
God does not like fighting
God does not love the greed of God wants just salad
Islam encourages the fighting
Encourages greed
Encourages the love power silent crimes Mohamed
So here's the problem
Every Muslim acts incompatible with his teachings
Christian fight
But don't say that God ordered him to fight
Fighting for life
Fighting in self-defence
Committing crimes
But all his actions contrary to his teachings
This is the difference between Christian and Muslim fighting fighting
Muslim fighting on behalf of poor machine
For God wars
And God is not in need of people to fight for it
Our God is strong
Does not need our swords
This is Islam fighting for God
It is fighting for a weak machine
Fighting on behalf of God
Here's the bi

 

[paarsurrey]

When were they ever at peace is the real question.

When were they?

Regards