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Was Islam spread by the sword?

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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Georgia (country):[1]

Islam in Georgia was introduced in 654 when an army sent by the Third Caliph of Islam, Uthman, conquered Eastern Georgiaand established Muslim rule in Tbilisi. Currently, Muslims constitute approximately 9.9%,[1] of the Georgian population. According to other sources Muslims constitute 10-13% of Georgia's population.[2]

In July 2011, Parliament of Georgia passed new law allowing religious minority groups with “historic ties to Georgia” to register. The draft of the law specifically mentions Islam and four other religious communities.[2]

Mosques in Georgia operate under the supervision of the Georgian Musliim Department, established in May 2011. Until then the affairs of Georgia's Muslims had been governed from abroad by the Baku-based Caucasus Muslims Department.[3]

In 2010, Turkey and Georgia signed an agreement by which Turkey will provide funding and expertise to rehabilitate threemosques and to rebuild a fourth one in Georgia. While Georgia will rehabilitate four Georgian monasteries in Turkey.[4] The Georgia-Turkey agreement will allow the reconstruction of the historical Azize mosque in Batumi, Ajaria demolished in the middle of the last century. Turkey will rehabilitate the mosques at Samtskhe-Javakheti and Akhaltsikhe regions, Kobuleti District, build the Azize mosque burned down in 1940 and restore the Turkish bathhouse in Batumi.

History[edit]
Emirate of Tbilisi[edit]
Main articles: Arab rule in Georgia and Emirate of Tbilisi

The Arabs first appeared in Georgia in 645. It was not, however, until 735, when they succeeded in establishing their firm control over a large portion of the country. In that year, Marwan II took hold of Tbilisi and much of the neighbouring lands and installed there an Arab emir, who was to be confirmed by the Caliph of Baghdad or, occasionally, by theostikan of Armīniya.

During the Arab period, Tbilisi (al-Tefelis) grew into a center of trade between the Islamic world and northern Europe. Beyond that, it functioned as a key Arab outpost and a buffer province facing the Byzantine and Khazar dominions. Over time, Tbilisi became largely Muslim.

Timurids[edit]
Main article: Timur's invasions of Georgia

Between 1386 and 1404, Georgia was subjected to invasions by the armies of Turco-Mongol conqueror Timur, whose vast empire stretched, at its greatest extent, from Central Asia into Anatolia. In the first of at least seven invasions, Timur sacked Georgia's capital, Tbilisi, and captured the king Bagrat V in 1386. In late 1401, Timur invaded the Caucasus once again. The King of Georgia had to sue for peace, and sent his brother with the contributions.

Timur was preparing for a major confrontation with the Ottoman dynasty and apparently wished to freeze the currently prevailing situation in Georgia, until he could return to deal with it more decisively and thoroughly at his leisure. Thus, he made peace with George on condition that the king of Georgia supply him with troops.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Georgia_(country)

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam Islam in Georgia (country).

Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
To summarize, I asked:

It's my understanding that the two basic foundational ideas of Islam are:

1 - The Quran is the perfect and final word of God.
2 - Muhammad is the role model for how to live a perfect life.

And paarsurrey answered:

Certainly true...

And then added some details.

==

So the reason I claim that one of Islam's key messages is "go conquer stuff", is because Muhammad did a lot of bloody conquering in his life, and in many places the Quran instructs Muslims to go conquer stuff.

This strikes me as the clearest, simplest answer. And any other answer will require all sorts of arm waving and mental gymnastics. And remember also, that over the course of 1400 years, many, many, many Muslims have agreed with this simple idea "go conquer stuff" and they have in fact, conquered stuff.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
To summarize, I asked:

And paarsurrey answered:
And then added some details.
==
So the reason I claim that one of Islam's key messages is "go conquer stuff", is because Muhammad did a lot of bloody conquering in his life, and in many places the Quran instructs Muslims to go conquer stuff.

This strikes me as the clearest, simplest answer. And any other answer will require all sorts of arm waving and mental gymnastics. And remember also, that over the course of 1400 years, many, many, many Muslims have agreed with this simple idea "go conquer stuff" and they have in fact, conquered stuff.

Please choose one , repeat ONE, out of the so many places, as you say, from Quran.

Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Please choose one , repeat ONE, out of the so many places, as you say, from Quran.

Regards

Hi paarsurrey,

I've been down this road many times. I pick a few verses, and the defender of the Quran starts in with what I've heard called the "Quranic Pretzel". It goes something like this:

"Well, you can't look at just the one verse! You must look at the previous three, then jump ahead to the next chapter and add the 7th and 8th. And then, remember that this took place in the early years, and you must also remember that you're reading a translation from the original Arabic. Plus, cultures were different in those days, and on and on and on."

So, for example, here's a verse from one of the first few pages of the Quran. To me these words define a cruel and capricious God:
2:7 - Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.
This verse is not directly an example of commands to spread Islam by the sword. I picked it because it's so close to the beginning and it seems like a great example of what seems like a clear message to me, that Muslims tell me I'm misinterpreting.

So, am I misinterpreting this verse?
 
Last edited:

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
To summarize, I asked:
And paarsurrey answered:
And then added some details.
==
So the reason I claim that one of Islam's key messages is "go conquer stuff", is because Muhammad did a lot of bloody conquering in his life, and in many places the Quran instructs Muslims to go conquer stuff.

This strikes me as the clearest, simplest answer. And any other answer will require all sorts of arm waving and mental gymnastics. And remember also, that over the course of 1400 years, many, many, many Muslims have agreed with this simple idea "go conquer stuff" and they have in fact, conquered stuff.

Just please choose one , repeat ONE, out of the so many places, as you say, from Quran. Kindly don't quote many.

Regards

Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi paarsurrey,

I'd still like to know if you think my interpretation of Allah as being cruel based on 2:7 is correct.

Ok, this might not be the best example, but again it's near the beginning of the book:

2:191- 2:193. 2:193 starts with:

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Although the number of pages of dialogue he wants Muslims to justify wars of Muhammad through the first and second world war

Therefore, I ask that you look at the difference between the first and second world war, the wars of the Christian States and wars of the Muslims
There is an important distinction to remember always
The wars of Christians does not bear the name of God
God has nothing to do in these wars
Because the combatants say they are fighting for national interests, mundane issues
Did Hitler be fighting because there is written in the Gospel
Or that he even fought the Churchill forced the Germans to accept Protestantism
Or that Montgomery told a yhaham Rommel in the desert that the numbered verse as well as the Gospel says his killer and God will help you to Rommel
Then there is the text of the Gospel supporting a war of Christianity and even Judaism does not believe in fighting
But in Islam this is different
All Islamic war between Muslims and the West are the verses of the Qur'an, Jihad
All wars of the Muslims carry mother of God
Mohammed a murderer and it carries the name of God
Jihad for God
This is an important difference
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
My friends in the Forum
I just received word of the fighting and the killer derivatives 96 times in the Quran
Do you think that these words are written for peace
Are wars declared and used the name of God
Through Jihad on the infidels and pagans
Mohammed participated in combat
But did Jesus subscribe to fighting
Is there one battle was announced by Christ
Where armies used
Wish granted to think these simple truths
Even know the difference between the Christian States and fighting between Muslim fighter
In aasbania went to the invasion and spread their religion
And occupation
Therefore there was expelled from this human right
Did you know that massacres of Armenians and Assyrians in Turkey during the first world war is more than a million Christian Armenians and Assyrians and Syriac and Chaldean
They were killed by the Muslim Turks and Kurds
Genocide
And you say that Islam spread peace
No peace this
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
If the Qur'an says Muhammad why not kill the prisoners in the battle of BADR
Do Muslims forget the verse a reproach to Muhammad because he did not kill the prisoner in the battle of BADR
And how Islam spread in some States without sword another way
An enticement
Listen well
An enticement
Is to marry four women at a time
And you also are engaged with sex
Do you think that this debt is difficult to spread
If not oppose in practice sexual shhwanh
The issue of citizenship is very important
Christianity does not want Christians to be lustful
And this faith in Christianity is difficult over Islam
Islam gives you freedom in sexual practices and sexual unit school
If you don't believe me
Read the verse that says daughters plow you I they toed them if you like
And also the practices of Muhammad with countrymen
Most of the people that embraced Islam did not find a difference between beliefs, ginseng and Islam
Only been lifting the machine name and locality of the name of God
God is far away from the teachings of Islam nationality
Because God is holy, Holy layamr, bestiality pornography
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I did not say the only source, I wrote "Quran the first and the foremost source of guidance of Muslims all over the world whatever the denomination". Please

Regards

A big "but" occurs here,the Qur'an is the final reference point but for a large proportion of followers of Islam its not because without the sunna and ahadith these people don't know how to follow Islam.

That's just sunni Muslims of which there are different sects,there are also Shia where ther are many different sects,Muhammed from a hadith said after being asked concerning the the sects of Islam which one is the right one,"the ones that are like me and the companions",this is interesting because there was no reference to the Qur'an which is after all is the reference point for all Muslims.

Muhammed was a warlord just like any other,even aqfter his death the Islamic empire grew by the sword or by whatever means required,war = booty will get you many followers,always has and sadly always will,just my opinion though.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi paarsurrey,

I'd still like to know if you think my interpretation of Allah as being cruel based on 2:7 is correct.

Ok, this might not be the best example, but again it's near the beginning of the book:

2:191- 2:193. 2:193 starts with:

Please select one verse as I told you.

Else, please access the site of Quran given in my posts* you will find below every verse “Detailed English Commentary "; you will get answers to most of your queries concerning a verse.

*The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Georgia (country):[2]

Islam in Georgia was introduced in 654 when an army sent by the Third Caliph of Islam, Uthman, conquered Eastern Georgiaand established Muslim rule in Tbilisi. Currently, Muslims constitute approximately 9.9%,[1] of the Georgian population. According to other sources Muslims constitute 10-13% of Georgia's population.[2]

History[edit]

Safavid and Ottoman Period[edit]

Rostom of Kartli, a Muslim Georgian ruler of the 17th century.
Main article: Persia-Georgia relations

The Safavid dynasty was in constant conflict with the Ottomans over control and influence in the Caucasus. From the 16th to the 18th centuries, the Safavids had to deal with several independent kingdoms and principalities, as Georgia was not a single state at the time. These entities often following divergent political courses. Safavid interests were largely directed at Eastern (the kingdoms of Kartli and Kakheti) and Southern (the kingdoms of Samtskhe-Saatabago), Georgia while Western Georgia was under Ottoman influence. These independent kingdoms became vassals of Persia after 1518.

Botanical Street and Sunnite Mosque. Middle of 1880

On May 29, 1555, the Safavids and the Ottoman Empire concluded a treaty at Amasya by which Transcaucasia was divided between the two. Western Georgia and the western part of southern Georgia fell to The Ottomans, while Eastern Georgia and the (largest) eastern part of southern Georgia fell to Iran, thus making Kartli again part of the Safavid Empire.

In 1703, Vakhtang VI became the ruler of the kingdom of Kartli. In 1716, he adopted Islam and the Safavid ruler confirmed him as King of Kartli. However, at a decisive moment Vakhtang was ordered to discontinue military campaigns, leading Vakhtang to adopt a pro-Russian orientation, though the Russian failed to tender him the promised military aid.

Demographics [edit]
The Muslims constitute from 9.9% (463,062)[1] to 10-13%[2] of Georgia's population.

There are two major Muslim groups in Georgia. The ethnic Georgian Muslims are Sunni Shafi'i and are concentrated in the Autonomous Republic of Adjara of Georgia bordering Turkey. The ethnic Azerbaijani Muslims are predominantlyShia Ithna Ashariyah and are concentrated along the border with Azerbaijan and Armenia.

The Meskhetian Turks, also a Sunni Shafi'i group, are the former inhabitants of the Meskheti region of Georgia, along the border with Turkey. They were deported to Central Asia during November 15–25, 1944 by Joseph Stalin and settled within Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbekistan. Of the 120,000 forcibly deported in cattle-trucks a total of 10,000 perished.[6] Today they are dispersed over a number of other countries of the former Soviet Union. There are 500,000 to 700,000 Meskhetian Turks in exile in Azerbaijan and Central Asia.[7][8]

Notable Georgian Muslims[edit]

• Aghsartan I of Kakheti - a king of Kakheti in eastern Georgia from 1054 until his death in 1084.
• Allahverdi Khan - general and statesman of Georgian origin who was Christian and converted toIslam.[9]
• Memed Abashidze
• David XI of Kartli - a king of Kartli
• Jesse of Kakheti - a ruler of Kakheti who converted to Islam.[10]
• Koca Yusuf Pasha - Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire who also served as the governor of Peloponnese.[11]
• Simon II of Kartli - a king of Kartli
• Yirmisekiz Mehmed Çelebi - Georgian[12] Ottoman statesman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Georgia_(country)

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Georgia (country).

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Although the number of pages of dialogue he wants Muslims to justify wars of Muhammad through the first and second world war

Therefore, I ask that you look at the difference between the first and second world war, the wars of the Christian States and wars of the Muslims
There is an important distinction to remember always
The wars of Christians does not bear the name of God
God has nothing to do in these wars
Because the combatants say they are fighting for national interests, mundane issues
Did Hitler be fighting because there is written in the Gospel
Or that he even fought the Churchill forced the Germans to accept Protestantism
Or that Montgomery told a yhaham Rommel in the desert that the numbered verse as well as the Gospel says his killer and God will help you to Rommel
Then there is the text of the Gospel supporting a war of Christianity and even Judaism does not believe in fighting
But in Islam this is different
All Islamic war between Muslims and the West are the verses of the Qur'an, Jihad
All wars of the Muslims carry mother of God
Mohammed a murderer and it carries the name of God
Jihad for God
This is an important difference

the first and second world war

Do you mean World War one and two were model wars and should be appreciated?

Then why not have Word Wars III and IV if you like them so much?

Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Thanks for your appreciation.

Regards

This was in regards to flanker's post.

paarsurrey, I understand that english is not your first language, and I have respect for anyone who is bilingual.

That said, flanker was being sarcastic - because your post concerning Georgia starts off by saying that Muslims conquered Georgia.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
My friends in the Forum
I just received word of the fighting and the killer derivatives 96 times in the Quran
Do you think that these words are written for peace
Are wars declared and used the name of God
Through Jihad on the infidels and pagans
Mohammed participated in combat
But did Jesus subscribe to fighting
Is there one battle was announced by Christ
Where armies used
Wish granted to think these simple truths
Even know the difference between the Christian States and fighting between Muslim fighter
In aasbania went to the invasion and spread their religion
And occupation
Therefore there was expelled from this human right
Did you know that massacres of Armenians and Assyrians in Turkey during the first world war is more than a million Christian Armenians and Assyrians and Syriac and Chaldean
They were killed by the Muslim Turks and Kurds
Genocide
And you say that Islam spread peace
No peace this

agreed!
 
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