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Was Islam spread by the sword?

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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Japan: [3]

The history of Islam in Japan is relatively brief in relation to the religion's longstanding presence in other countries around the world.

Post–World War II[edit]

In the 1970s, another "Islamic Boom" was set in motion, this time in the shade of "Arab Boom" after the 1973 oil crisis. After realizing the importance of the Middle East and its massive oil reserves for the Japanese economy, the Japanese mass media have since been giving big publicity to the Muslim World in general and the Arab World in particular.[citation needed]

The Turks have been the biggest Muslim community in Japan until recently. Pre-war Japan was well known for its sympathy and favour towards Muslims in Central Asia, seeing in them an anti-Soviet ally. In those days some Japanese who worked in intelligence circles had contact with these Muslims. A few converted to Islam through these contacts, and embraced it after the war ended.

The Japanese invasion of China and South East Asian regions during the Second World War brought the Japanese in contact with Muslims. Those who embraced Islam through them returned to Japan and established in 1953, the first Japanese Muslim organisation, the Japan Muslim Association under the leadership of Sadiq Imaizumi. Its members, numbering sixty five at the time of inauguration, increased twofold before he died six years later.[citation needed]

The second president of the association was the Umar Mita. Mita was typical of the old generation, who learned Islam in the territories occupied by the Japanese Empire. He was working for the Manshu Railway Company,[disambiguation needed] which virtually controlled the Japanese territory in the north eastern province of China at that time. Through his contacts with Chinese Muslims, he became a Muslim in Peking. When he returned to Japan after the war, he made the Hajj, the first Japanese in the post-war period to do so. He also made a Japanese translation of the meaning of the Qur'an from a Muslim perspective for the first time. Aljazeera also did a documentary regarding Islam and Japan called "Road to Hajj – Japan".[9]

Though many Islamic organisations were established since the 1900s, each of them had only very few active members.[citation needed]
Muslim demographics[edit]

Islam was thought to have first come to Japan in the early 1900s when Muslim Tatars were escaping Russian expansionism.[10] The Muslim community in Japan has a history of over 100 years, although some sources contest more than this amount.[10][11][12] In 1909 it was documented by historian Caeser E. Farah that Abdul-Rashid Ibrahim was the first Muslim who successfully converted the first ethnic Japanese, and in 1935 Kobe Mosque—Japan's first Islamic building—was constructed.[10][13]

Some sources have stated that in 1982 the Muslims numbered 30,000 (half were natives).[10] Some ethnic Japanese women during the economic boom of the 1980s converted when large swathes of immigrants from Asia came and integrated with local population.[14] The majority of estimates of the Muslim population have been put at around 100,000 in estimates.[10][15][16]

Islam remains a minority religion in Japan, and there is no evidence as to whether Islam is growing or not. Conversion is more prominent among young ethnic Japanese married women, as documented by the Japan Times as early as the 1990s.[14] Furthermore in 2000 Keiko Sakurai had estimated the number of ethnic Japanese Muslims in Japan at 63,552, and around 70,000–100,000 foreign Muslims residing in the country.[11] However according to essayist Michael Penn states that 90% of Muslims are foreign and about 10% are ethnic, but the true figure is unknown and this is just another speculative estimate.[15]

In Japan the government does not take religion into account as part of the demographic concern under religious freedom. As Penn states, "The Japanese government does not keep any statistics on the number of Muslims in Japan. Neither foreign residents nor ethnic Japanese are never asked about their religion by official government agencies".[15]

Mosques[edit]

•Kobe Mosque in Kobe, Japan
•Tokyo Jama Masjid

According to japanfocus.org,[17] 'There are currently between 30 and 40 single-story mosques in Japan, plus another 100 or more apartment rooms set aside, in the absence of more suitable facilities, for prayers.

Islam in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Japan.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
hi paarsurrey - remember i said 4:94-4:97 - not in isolation

so tell me how you'd interpret these verses, they seem extremely clear to me - if you fight, you get the best spots in paradise.

Is there a harm in reading five preceding and five following verses or even the whole chapter, if the need there be? Please.

Regards
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Yes he has to move goal posts constantly.

Just to hide the truth.

paarsurrey -

It does seem that whenever I read one verse or a set of verses, I'm always told that I read the wrong collection of verses. To me, the words are the words. The Quran I read was created by a couple of Islamic scholars who undoubtedly put thousands of hours of effort into the translation and who I'd have to guess are really, really, really experts in Islam.

So, you tell me, which of the verses in Surah 4 that I listed are the "correct" ones to read in order to "properly" understand the message.

Again, the message seems pretty clear to me: If you fight for Allah - you get better seats in Paradise, and if you live with non-believers you should leave.
 

Scimitar

Eschatologist
its like beating a dead horse with you - er - ice horse - ahem.

I give up - I gave you links - I gave you recommendations - had you spent your time reading those, you'd not be here regurgitating the same tired nonsense.

I'm really sorry to have wasted my time with you.

Oh well, dead horse is a dead horse, no matter how cool he thinks himself to be.

Best,

Scimi
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
its like beating a dead horse with you - er - ice horse - ahem.

I give up - I gave you links - I gave you recommendations - had you spent your time reading those, you'd not be here regurgitating the same tired nonsense.

I'm really sorry to have wasted my time with you.

Oh well, dead horse is a dead horse, no matter how cool he thinks himself to be.

Best,

Scimi

ad hominem attacks, always the sign of a strong argument.

Scimitar - you gave me pretzel logic, I'm still waiting for a nice clean response, no mental gymnastics. Occam's razor! Parsimony, dude :)
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey -

It does seem that whenever I read one verse or a set of verses, I'm always told that I read the wrong collection of verses. To me, the words are the words. The Quran I read was created by a couple of Islamic scholars who undoubtedly put thousands of hours of effort into the translation and who I'd have to guess are really, really, really experts in Islam.

So, you tell me, which of the verses in Surah 4 that I listed are the "correct" ones to read in order to "properly" understand the message.

Again, the message seems pretty clear to me: If you fight for Allah - you get better seats in Paradise, and if you live with non-believers you should leave.

You have already made up your mind and do not seem to be open for understanding.

Sorry, I cannot help you, if you don't open up your mind as reasonably suggested by me.

When you are inclined to do it; you will be welcome.

Thanks and regards
 

Harikrish

Active Member
That is like saying all Christians countries threaten the world with weapons of mass destruction because they possess nuclear weapons. Except for Pakistan, no other Islamic country possess such weapons. Islam is a religion of peace.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
That is like saying all Christians countries threaten the world with weapons of mass destruction because they possess nuclear weapons. Except for Pakistan, no other Islamic country possess such weapons. Islam is a religion of peace.

Harikrish,

I'd agree that there are many problems in the world. And I'd agree that Christians have a bad track record. And I'd agree that "the West" has its share of problems, and I'm from the West.

We're all alive in 2014 and we're all faced with a situation that our ancestors created. It's up to us to make it better. Personally, I also spend a lot of time working on fixing some problems that the West has.

AND, I spend time discussing Islam, because I believe Islam is ALSO a source of some of the world's problems. I think it's preposterous that Muslims defend Islam as being perfect and in no need of reform, and that's why I'm on this forum.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
That is like saying all Christians countries threaten the world with weapons of mass destruction because they possess nuclear weapons.

Which is ignorance as we are taking care of problems in islam, that islam cannot and refuses to deal with due to fanaticism and fundamentalism




Islam is a religion of peace.
.

Well right now it is perceived as a religion of terrorism and ignorance.

And not one member of this forum that is still a member of islam, fights against any reform for the positive.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Kazakhstan: [1]


Islam is the largest religion practiced in Kazakhstan, as 70% of the country's population is Muslim according to a 2009 national census.[1] Ethnic Kazakhs are predominantly Sunni Muslims of the Hanafi school.[2] There are few AhmadiMuslims, who face persecution in the country.[3]

From its Geography, Kazakhstan is the northernmost Muslim-majority country in the world. Kazakhs make up over half of the total population, and other ethnic groups of Muslim background include Uzbeks, Uyghurs and Tatars.[4] Islam first arrived on the southern edges of the region in the 8th century from Arabs.

The Nur-Astana Mosque in the capital Astana, is the largest mosque in Kazakhstan

History[edit]

Mosque in Semey, Mashkhur Jusup central mosque, Pavlodar
Islam was brought to the Kazakhs during the 8th century when the Arabs arrived in Central Asia. Islam initially took hold in the southern portions of Turkestan and thereafter gradually spread northward.[5] Islam also took root due to the zealous missionary work of Samanid rulers, notably in areas surrounding Taraz[6] where a significant number of Kazakhs accepted Islam. Additionally, in the late 14th century, the Golden Horde propagated Islam amongst the Kazakhs and other Central Asian tribes.

During the 18th century, Russian influence rapidly increased toward the region. Led byCatherine, the Russians initially demonstrated a willingness in allowing Islam to flourish as Muslim clerics were invited into the region to preach to the Kazakhs whom the Russians viewed as "savages" and "ignorant" of morals and ethics.[7][8]

Russian policy gradually changed toward weakening Islam by introducing pre-Islamic elements of collective consciousness.[9] Such attempts included methods of eulogizing pre-Islamic historical figures and imposing a sense of inferiority by sending Kazakhs to highly elite Russian military institutions.[9] In response, Kazakh religious leaders attempted to bring religious fervor by espousing pan-Turkism, though many were persecuted as a result.[10]

During theSoviet era, Muslim institutions survived only in areas where Kazakhs significantly outnumbered non-Muslims due to everyday Muslim practices.[11] In an attempt to conform Kazakhs into Communist ideologies, gender relations and other aspects of the Kazakh culture were key targets of social change.[8]

In more recent times, Kazakhs have gradually employed determined effort in revitalizing Islamic religious institutions after the fall of the Soviet Union. While not strongly fundamentalist, Kazakhs continue to identify with their Islamic faith,[12] and even more devotedly in the countryside. Those who claim descent from the original Muslim warriors and missionaries of the 8th century, command substantial respect in their communities.[13] Kazakh political figures have also stressed the need to sponsor Islamic awareness. For example, the Kazakh Foreign Affairs Minister, Marat Tazhin, recently emphasized that Kazakhstan attaches importance to the use of "positive potential Islam, learning of its history, culture and heritage."[14]

Soviet authorities attempted to encourage a controlled form of Islam under the Spiritual Administration of the Muslims of Central Asia and Kazakhstan as a unifying force in the Central Asian societies, while at the same time prohibiting true religious freedom. Since independence, religious activity has increased significantly. Construction of mosques and religious schools accelerated in the 1990s, with financial help from Turkey, Egypt, and, primarily, Saudi Arabia.[15] In 1991 170 mosques were operating, more than half of them newly built. At that time an estimated 230 Muslim communities were active in Kazakhstan.
Islam in Kazakhstan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Kazakhstan.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Harikrish,

I'd agree that there are many problems in the world. And I'd agree that Christians have a bad track record. And I'd agree that "the West" has its share of problems, and I'm from the West.

We're all alive in 2014 and we're all faced with a situation that our ancestors created. It's up to us to make it better. Personally, I also spend a lot of time working on fixing some problems that the West has.

AND, I spend time discussing Islam, because I believe Islam is ALSO a source of some of the world's problems. I think it's preposterous that Muslims defend Islam as being perfect and in no need of reform, and that's why I'm on this forum.

Please adopt the step I suggested to you in post # 1697 for a meaningful discussion and understanding the movement of reformation already at hand in Islam.

Thanks and regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Please adopt the step I suggested to you in post # 1697 for a meaningful discussion and understanding the movement of reformation already at hand in Islam.

Thanks and regards

Hi paarsurrey,

I have done that and I'll say again: Please explain 4:94 - 4:97.

The way I read these verses, Allah will give the best part of paradise to those Muslims who fight the non-believers.

If you disagree, then what do YOU think the message is?
 
Mohammad was persecuted much in the same way Jesus was persecuted, both suffered for their religious beliefs. What makes their situations so unique is that they both lived devoted to the same God, the God of Moses, and Abraham. Mohammad claimed to have been brought to heaven by the Angel Gabriel; in heaven he reportedly saw Abraham, and Jesus. Mohammad held Jesus as a much-respected prophet of God. When Mohammad began preaching Jews persecuted him for his strong belief in Jesus and his teachings. Mohammad repeatedly was prosecuted for his faith in God and his backing of Jesus.

Mohammad’s’ last public sermon decried that Muslims, and followers of all religions with the belief in the one true God, should live in brotherhood and tolerance. Soon after this sermon Mohammad passed on. So what has happened to this message? Have the politically driven Islamic leaders of today hijacked and bastardized a religion, and its religious decree, meant to preserve peace and harmony? How can Mohammad have preached so much about tolerance yet radical Muslim leaders of today spout nothing but hate and hate filled rhetoric?

If you read about Mohammad’s teachings you will see that he was disgusted in issues that involved persecution, or discrimination based on religion. Conversely, you have some Muslim leaders around the world crying out that Jews should be destroyed, or Christians should be obliterated.

Don’t most Muslims remember that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are all considered faiths of the book ? Don’t they see how similar our beliefs are? Have they forgotten how hallowed Mohammad held Jesus and his teachings? How can these Radical Islamic individuals spout so much hatred in the name of Islam when it is so contradictory to its belief base? I ask you now, who is the real enemy of Islam, is it the brothers and sisters of believers or is it the Imams, and Islamic Presidents, who use Islam as a sword when it cuts to their needs?

I love Muslims and their beliefs; I despise the leaders who hi-jack this religion to further their own needs and desires. It’s time the Muslim populations take a look at the real teachings of Islam and then ask themselves, who is the real enemy of Mohammad’s’ teachings?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I despise the leaders who hi-jack this religion to further their own needs and desires.

Agreed.

It’s time the Muslim populations take a look at the real teachings of Islam and then ask themselves, who is the real enemy of Mohammad’s’ teachings?


My main problem is the required fanaticism and fundamentalism, the literalism.


One has to believe in magic, that a man talked to an angel instead of using the pre existing beliefs that were in his geographic location. Shame on the warrior for that rhetoric. It forces life away from reality.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
When Mohammad began preaching Jews persecuted him for his strong belief in Jesus and his teachings.

Rightfully so with all the lies he told about a man he knew nothing about.


Mohammad claimed to have been brought to heaven by the Angel Gabriel; in heaven he reportedly saw Abraham, and Jesus.

What source for these lies?


Abraham never existed, He factually has no historicity, we now know he was a literary creation as well as many of islams made up prophets, stolen from Judaism.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Mohammad’s’ last public sermon decried that Muslims, and followers of all religions with the belief in the one true God, should live in brotherhood and tolerance.

I doubt there is a credible source for this.


We are not talking about a persecuted man, but a warrior who spread his religion with a sword.

He did not set an example that is for sure. Without violence, there would be no islam.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
PeaceSeeker,

Where can we find the "real teachings of Isam" that you refer to? Are they in the Quran and the Hadith? Elsewhere?

The Quran is fundamentally NOT a peaceful book, and Muhammad did NOT lead a peaceful life, so I'm not sure I know where we can find these "real teachings" ?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi paarsurrey,

I have done that and I'll say again: Please explain 4:94 - 4:97.

The way I read these verses, Allah will give the best part of paradise to those Muslims who fight the non-believers.

If you disagree, then what do YOU think the message is?

I will just highlight the clues that are there in the context, if one, does not keep them in mind one will get the wrong understanding:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:189] And do not devour your wealth among yourselves through falsehood, and offer it not as bribe to the authorities that you may knowingly devour a part of the wealth of other people with injustice.
[2:190] They ask thee about the new moons. Say, ‘They are means for measuring time for the general good of mankind and for the Pilgrimage.’ And it is not righteousness that you come into houses by the backs thereof; but truly righteous is he who fears God. And you should come into houses by the doors thereof; and fear Allah that you may prosper.
[2:191] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:192] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.
[2:193] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[2:194] And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.
[2:195] The violation of a Sacred Month should be retaliated in the Sacred Month; and for all sacred things there is the law of retaliation. So, whoso transgresses against you, punish him for his transgression to the extent to which he has transgressed against you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
[2:196] And spend for the cause of Allah, and cast not yourselves into ruin with your own hands, and do good; surely, Allah loves those who do good.
[2:197] And complete the Hajj and the ‘Umrah for the sake of Allah: but if you are kept back, then make whatever offering is easily available; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. And whoever among you is sick or has an ailment of the head, should make an expiation either by fasting or almsgiving or a sacrifice. But when you are safe, then he, who would avail himself of the ‘Umrah together with the Hajj, should make whatever offering is easily obtainable. But such of you as cannot find an offering should fast three days during the Pilgrimage, and seven when you return home; these are ten complete. This is for him whose family does not reside near the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in punishing.
[2:198] The months of the Hajj are well known; so whoever determines to perform the Pilgrimage in these months, should remember that there is to be no foul talk, nor any transgression, nor any quarrelling during the Pilgrimage. And whatever good you do, Allah knows it. And furnish yourselves with necessary provisions, and surely, the best provision is righteousness. And fear Me alone, O men of understanding.

OOOOOOOOOOOO

The context is very clearly it is about the Hajj, the preceding verses mention Hajj and the later verses also mention it. These verses are not general and as the context make it clear are about the Meccans who prohibited Muslim from performing Hajj. The Meccans while Muhammad and his followers were in Mecca did not allow them to perform the religious rites as per their beliefs, Hajj was one of them.
The Meccans instead persecuted the Muslims, burned their houses, tortured and killed them. They even arrested them in an enclave:

Muhammad before Medina
According to tradition, in 617 the leaders of Makhzum and Banu Abd-Shams, two important clans of Quraysh, declared a public boycott against the clan of Banu Hashim, their commercial rival, in order to put pressure on the clan to withdraw its protection from Muhammad.[1][2] The terms imposed on Banu Hashim, as reported by Ibn Ishaq, were "that no one should marry their women nor give women for them to marry; and that no one should either buy from them or sell to them, and when they agreed on that they wrote it in a deed."[3] The boycott lasted for two or three years but eventually collapsed mainly because it was not achieving its purpose; the boycott had caused extreme privation and the sympathizers within the Quraysh finally united to annul the agreement.[2][4]

Meccan boycott of the Hashemites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muslims are being advised that under these conditions of extreme persecution they should not live/befriend with Meccans and for freedom of religion they should migrate.

Likewise if one follows the clues in the context, one gets the correct understanding of the verses.


Regards
 
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