Was Islam spread by the sword?

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Kazakhstan: [2]


Islam is the largest religion practiced in Kazakhstan, as 70% of the country's population is Muslim according to a 2009 national census.[1] Ethnic Kazakhs are predominantly Sunni Muslims of the Hanafi school.[2] There are few Ahmadi Muslims, who face persecution in the country.[3]

Islam and the state[edit]

In 1990 Nursultan Nazarbayev, then the First Secretary of the Kazakhstan Communist Party, created a state basis for Islam by removing Kazakhstan from the authority of the Muslim Board of Central Asia, the Soviet-approved and politically oriented religious administration for all of Central Asia. Instead, Nazarbayev created a separate muftiate, or religious authority, for Kazakh Muslims.[16]

With an eye toward the Islamic governments of nearby Iran and Afghanistan, the writers of the 1993 constitution specifically forbade religious political parties. The 1995 constitution forbids organizations that seek to stimulate racial, political, or religious discord, and imposes strict governmental control on foreign religious organizations. As did its predecessor, the 1995 constitution stipulates that Kazakhstan is a secular state; thus, Kazakhstan is the only Central Asian state whose constitution does not assign a special status to Islam. Though, Kazakhstan joined the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation in the same year.

This position was based on the Nazarbayev government's foreign policy as much as on domestic considerations. Aware of the potential for investment from the Muslim countries of the Middle East, Nazarbayev visited Iran, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia; at the same time, he preferred to cast Kazakhstan as a bridge between the Muslim East and the Christian West. For example, he initially accepted only observer status in the Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO), all of whose member nations are predominantly Muslim. The president's first trip to the Muslim holy city of Mecca, which occurred in 1994, was part of an itinerary that also included a visit to Pope John Paul II in theVatican.[16]

Islam in Kazakhstan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Kazakhstan.

Regards

 

[icehorse]

Hi paarsurrey,

You had a long and complex explanation that ended with:

Likewise if one follows the clues in the context, one gets the correct understanding of the verses.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that somehow, you've correctly put the various pieces of history and Quranic context together and arrived at the intended message.

For 1400 years, millions of Muslims have come up with different, more violent interpretations. Over this 1400 year period, somewhere between 250 and 300 MILLION people have been murdered "in the name of Islam". (BTW, Christianity's record is also in that same 250-300 million murders neighborhood.)

So I applaud your peaceful interpretation. And I might even agree that most Muslims hold peaceful interpretations.

But at least 1/3 of the Muslims in the world do not. This is not a tiny fringe - this is 500 million people. 500 million people who think apostasy is a crime. 500 million people who think women are second class citizens. 500 million people who think that freedom of expression should be limited so that criticizing Islam would be a crime. 500 million people who think Jews and gays should be persecuted.

These beliefs are held across many cultures and have been held for 1400 years.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi paarsurrey,

You had a long and complex explanation that ended with:

For the sake of discussion, let's say that somehow, you've correctly put the various pieces of history and Quranic context together and arrived at the intended message.

For 1400 years, millions of Muslims have come up with different, more violent interpretations. Over this 1400 year period, somewhere between 250 and 300 MILLION people have been murdered "in the name of Islam". (BTW, Christianity's record is also in that same 250-300 million murders neighborhood.)

So I applaud your peaceful interpretation. And I might even agree that most Muslims hold peaceful interpretations.

But at least 1/3 of the Muslims in the world do not. This is not a tiny fringe - this is 500 million people. 500 million people who think apostasy is a crime. 500 million people who think women are second class citizens. 500 million people who think that freedom of expression should be limited so that criticizing Islam would be a crime. 500 million people who think Jews and gays should be persecuted.

These beliefs are held across many cultures and have been held for 1400 years.

I am not proving that all Muslims are correct at all times.

Any one of them or many collectively could be wrong in their understanding of a verse of Quran or many verses as could be non-Muslin or many of them collectively.

My submission is that the Muslims or non-Muslims should understand Quran correctly, reasonably and rationally with an unbiased approach, from its context, as is customary to understand any other book.

Regards

 

[icehorse]

Hi paarsurrey,

If I apply my normal rules of criticism to this book (the same rules I use for ALL books), then this book gets a bad grade. If - for the sake of discussion - we say that your interpreation is correct, then at least 1/3 of the people who read it, misunderstand it. That's the book's fault, not the reader's fault.

When a book is written clearly, almost everyone who reads it will understand it.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi paarsurrey,

If I apply my normal rules of criticism to this book (the same rules I use for ALL books), then this book gets a bad grade. If - for the sake of discussion - we say that your interpreation is correct, then at least 1/3 of the people who read it, misunderstand it. That's the book's fault, not the reader's fault.

When a book is written clearly, almost everyone who reads it will understand it.

I don't agree with you.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

I don't agree with you.

Regards

reality does not agree with you

 

[icehorse]

I don't agree with you.

Regards

outhouse

paarsurrey - which part don't you agree with?

(And remember, these so-called "misinterpretations" have caused 200-300 MILLION murders over the last 1400 years)

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi paarsurrey,

If I apply my normal rules of criticism to this book (the same rules I use for ALL books), then this book gets a bad grade. If - for the sake of discussion - we say that your interpreation is correct, then at least 1/3 of the people who read it, misunderstand it. That's the book's fault, not the reader's fault.

When a book is written clearly, almost everyone who reads it will understand it.

You may judge/misjudge or grade/upgrade anything for you.
It does not concern me.

Regards

 

[icehorse]

You may judge/misjudge or grade/upgrade anything for you.
It does not concern me.

Regards

Oh, my mistake, I thought we were both voluntarily in a debate forum

 

[paarsurrey]

Oh, my mistake, I thought we were both voluntarily in a debate forum

You wanted to know meaning of a verse and did not tell that you want to judge Quran for me.
We can still discuss the verse.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Korea: [1]

In South Korea, Islam (이슬람&#44368 is a small minority religion. The Muslim (both Korean and foreign-born) community is centered on Seoul, where the first large 20th-century mosque was built in 1976 using the funds of the MalaysianIslamic Mission and other Islamic countries.

In addition to fewer than 30,000 indigenous Korean Muslims, are South Asian, Middle Eastern (i.e. Iraqi), Indonesianand Malaysian immigrants in South Korea, the majority of whom are Muslims. They have been guest workers since the 1990s, taking the total Muslim population in the country to around 35,000.[1]

It is believed that there is no significant presence of Islam in North Korea, where autonomous religious activity in general is almost non-existent.

Seoul Central Mosque.

Early history[edit]

During the middle to late 7th century, Muslim traders had traversed from the Caliphate to Tang China and established contact with Silla, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea.[2] In 751, a Chinese general of Goguryeo descent, Gao Xianzhi, led the Battle of Talas for the Tang dynasty against the Abbasid Caliphate but was defeated. The earliest reference to Korea in a non-East Asian geographical work appears in the General Survey of Roads and Kingdoms by Estakhri in the mid-9th century.[3]

The first verifiable presence of Islam in Korea dates back to the 9th century during the Unified Silla period with the arrival of Persian and Arab navigators and traders.

According to numerous Muslim geographers, including the 9th-century Muslim Persian explorer and geographer Ibn Khordadbeh, many of them settled down permanently in Korea, establishing Muslim villages.[4]

Some records indicate that many of these settlers were from Iraq.[5] Other records suggest that a large number of the Alawid Shia faction settled in Korea.[6] Further suggesting a Middle Eastern Muslim community in Silla are figurines of royal guardians with distinctly Persian characteristics.[7] In turn, later many Muslims intermarried with Korean women. Some assimilation into Buddhism and Shamanism took place owing to Korea's geographical isolation from the Muslim world.[8]

In 1154, Korea was included in the Arab geographer Muhammad al-Idrisi's world atlas, Tabula Rogeriana. The oldest surviving Korean world map, Kangnido, drew its knowledge of the Western Regions from the work of Islamic geographers.[9]

Islam in Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Korea.

Regards

 

[1robin]

I don't agree with you.

Regards

The consensus view of literary scholars is the Quran is a literary train wreck. It is not remarkable in any way. Entire sites are devoted to producing verses better than any it contains and I have even done so without even feeling challenged. Whatever merit the Quran has, it is not in a literary sense. It is written without chronological coherence and compiled for memorization not comprehension.

 

[icehorse]

You wanted to know meaning of a verse and did not tell that you want to judge Quran for me.
We can still discuss the verse.

Regards

Hi paarsurrey, Two questions:

1 - I summarized the verses about how fighters get the best spots in Paradise, in my own words. Can you summarize these verses in your own words?

2 - You keep posting examples of the "peaceful" spread of Islam. (I put "peaceful" in quotes because some of your own examples of "peaceful" were not peaceful - BASED ON YOU OWN POSTS).

But here's the question - Islam has spread into various regions of the world over many years. For the sake of discussion, let's say that there have been 500 examples of the spread of Islam. (The number 500 isn't important, I just picked a large, simple number.) If violence was used 450 times, 90% we probably would NOT say that Islam was peaceful. How about if violence was used 250 times, 50% - would you say Islam was peaceful? (Probably not.) How about if violence was used 50 times, 10% ? Maybe?

So, how often can Islam use violence and still be peaceful in your definition? 10%? 20%? more?

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi paarsurrey, Two questions:

1 - I summarized the verses about how fighters get the best spots in Paradise, in my own words. Can you summarize these verses in your own words?

2 - You keep posting examples of the "peaceful" spread of Islam. (I put "peaceful" in quotes because some of your own examples of "peaceful" were not peaceful - BASED ON YOU OWN POSTS).

But here's the question - Islam has spread into various regions of the world over many years. For the sake of discussion, let's say that there have been 500 examples of the spread of Islam. (The number 500 isn't important, I just picked a large, simple number.) If violence was used 450 times, 90% we probably would NOT say that Islam was peaceful. How about if violence was used 250 times, 50% - would you say Islam was peaceful? (Probably not.) How about if violence was used 50 times, 10% ? Maybe?

So, how often can Islam use violence and still be peaceful in your definition? 10%? 20%? more?

There is no teaching of violence/killing/massacre/loot-age/persecution/burning the houses etc in Quran.

If somebody does it against the teaching, it is his responsibility.

Regards

 

[icehorse]

There is no teaching of violence/killing/massacre/loot-age/persecution/burning the houses etc in Quran.

If somebody does it against the teaching, it is his responsibility.

Regards

I know, these probably all have "context":

2:178, 2:190, 2:244, 2:193, 2:216, 3:157, 3:169-171, 3:195, 4:39, 4:74, 4:76, 4:89,
4:91, 5:38, 5:45, 5:80, 7:4-5, 8:15-17, 8:59-60, 9:5, 9:39, 9:73, 9:111, 9:123,

Ok, that's just the first 9 surah. and I did NOT include the many, many, many times that the book says that non-believers are doomed to hellfire, and that Allah is really, really, really angry.

There are what, another hundred Surah?

 

[1robin]

I know, these probably all have "context":

2:178, 2:190, 2:244, 2:193, 2:216, 3:157, 3:169-171, 3:195, 4:39, 4:74, 4:76, 4:89,
4:91, 5:38, 5:45, 5:80, 7:4-5, 8:15-17, 8:59-60, 9:5, 9:39, 9:73, 9:111, 9:123,

Ok, that's just the first 9 surah. and I did NOT include the many, many, many times that the book says that non-believers are doomed to hellfire, and that Allah is really, really, really angry.

There are what, another hundred Surah?

You can't go more than a few minutes without reading that Allah hates some group or other. There are more than thirty verses telling Muslims to fight other groups for the primary reason that they are not Muslims, 500 instances of telling groups they are going to Hell, over 100 verses on violent Jihad in general, Allah seems to be as mad as Muhammad most of the time. Not so strange a coincidence.

 

[outhouse]

You can't go more than a few minutes without reading that Allah hates some group or other. There are more than thirty verses telling Muslims to fight other groups for the primary reason that they are not Muslims, 500 instances of telling groups they are going to Hell, over 100 verses on violent Jihad in general, Allah seems to be as mad as Muhammad most of the time. Not so strange a coincidence.

And like YEC literalist.


They cherry pick/quote mine which verses to read literal out of context :slap:

 

[1robin]

There is no teaching of violence/killing/massacre/loot-age/persecution/burning the houses etc in Quran.

If somebody does it against the teaching, it is his responsibility.

Regards

Then why did Muhammad do exactly that the first chance he had after being given soldiers to stop tribal disagreements? Instead the robbed caravans, which was a time honored Arabic tradition. I have given the lists of his first battles. 90% were for loot against caravans. I can't even get a Muslim to respond to them. Start with the battle of Badr. It was a Caravan raid given on Muhammad's word alone and for the recorded reason that the caravans that year were especially wealthy.

 

[paarsurrey]

I know, these probably all have "context":

2:178, 2:190, 2:244, 2:193, 2:216, 3:157, 3:169-171, 3:195, 4:39, 4:74, 4:76, 4:89,
4:91, 5:38, 5:45, 5:80, 7:4-5, 8:15-17, 8:59-60, 9:5, 9:39, 9:73, 9:111, 9:123,

Ok, that's just the first 9 surah. and I did NOT include the many, many, many times that the book says that non-believers are doomed to hellfire, and that Allah is really, really, really angry.

There are what, another hundred Surah?

Please select one from them.

Regards

 

[icehorse]

Please select one from them.

Regards

Human brains simply do not work the way you'd like them to, and 1400 years of bloody Islamic history are proof of that.

paarsurrey, you seem to take a somewhat scholarly approach to studying the scripture - that's a worthy undertaking. But MOST humans have not and will not take that approach. IF they read at all, they read the words in front of their eyeballs and they come away with general impressions. It's extremely rare for a person to read a verse, stop, go back several pages, take some notes, go forward a few pages, take more notes, think about the culture at the time and so on, to try to derive a message out of a verse.

You can claim that you have the correct analysis. But even in 2014, Muslims all over the world ARE KILLING EACH OTHER over disagreements about how to interpret the scripture.