Was Islam spread by the sword?

[paarsurrey]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Circassians: [6]

History

Circassia was a small independent nation on the northeastern shore of the Black Sea. For no reason other than ethnic hatred, over the course of hundreds of raids the Russians drove the Circassians from their homeland and deported them to the Ottoman Empire. At least 600,000 people lost their lives to massacre, starvation, and the elements while hundreds of thousands more were forced to leave their homeland. By 1864, three-fourths of the population was annihilated, and the Circassians had become one of the first stateless peoples in modern history.
— Walter Richmond, The Circassian Genocide [48]

Language

Circassians mainly speak the Circassian language, a Northwest Caucasian language with numerous dialects, the primary ones being Adyghe (West Circassian) and Kabardian (East Circassian). Circassians also speak Turkish and Arabic in large numbers, having being exiled by Russia to lands of the Ottoman Empire, where the majority of them live today.

Lesser numbers of Circassians speak Russian, English, and German.
The native language is spoken among all the Circassian communities around the world, with about 125,000 speakers who live in the Russian Federation, some of whom live in the Republic of Adygea where the Adyghe language is defined as the official language. The world's largest Adyghe-speaking community is the Circassian community in Turkey — it has about 150,000 Adyghe speakers.

The Circassians who migrated to the United States are facing an asimiliation crisis. Each new generation of circassians are not preserving their language. Historians predict the language will be extinct within the next 50 years in the U.S.

Religion

The ethnic religion of Circassians (Adyghes) was Habze — a philosophical and religious system of personal values and the relationship of an individual to others, to the world around him, and to the Higher Mind. In essence, it represents monotheism with a much-defined system of worshipping One God — the Mighty Tha (Tha, Thashxue). During the time of the settlement of Greek cities / colonies on the coast of the Black Sea there was an intermingling of cultures. Circassian mythology has noticeable aspects from Greek mythology. In return, there is evidence that Greek mythology also borrowed from Circassian legends. In the 6th century, under Byzantine influence, many Adyghes became Christian, but under the growing influence of the Ottomans, many of them became Muslims.

Throughout Circassian history the ethnic religion of Circassians has interacted with Christianity and Islam.

Christianity reached and spread throughout the Caucasus and was first introduced between the 4th century[40] and the 6th century[41] under Greek Byzantine influence and later through the Georgians between the 10th century and the 13th century. During that period, Circassians began to accept Christianity as their national religion, but did not fully adopt Christianity as elements of their ancient indigenous religious beliefs still survived.

Islam reached the northeastern region of the Caucasus, principally Dagestan, as early as the 7th century, but was first introduced to the Circassians between the 16th century and in the middle of the 19th century under the influence of the Crimean Tatars, the Ottoman Turks and the Persians.
In the modern times, it has been reported that some Circassians practice their traditional religious faith Habzism, whose adherents constitute 12% of the population of Karachay-Cherkessia and 3% of the population of Kabardino-Balkaria.[67][68]

There have also been reports of violence against those practising the older religion. Aslan Tsipinov, an advocate of Habzism in Kabardino-Balkaria, was murdered by radical Islamists in 2010, who had warned him months earlier to stop publicizing the rituals of the original Circassian faith.[69][70]

Today, the majority of Circassians are predominantly Sunni Muslim and adhere to the Hanafi school of thought, or law, the largest and oldest school of Islamic law in jurisprudence within Sunni Islam. There is also a small number of Catholics, the faith having been introduced to the area during the Middle Ages by Venetian and Genoese traders, who now account for just under 1% of Russia's Circassians.[71]

Circassians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Circassians.

Regards

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

paarsurrey, he's welcome to his opinion.. despite it, Islam remains the fastest growing religion in the world, with most of its conversions coming from the west - and from these women are outnumbering the men converts by a ratio of 4/1 according to CIA factbook. So an opinion is always welcome - even though it may not reflect the reality.

Was Islam spread by the sword? You'd have to ask yourself - in this current age, is Islam spreading by the sword? According to our apparent reality, it is not - it is spreading through the understanding and study of Islam by non Arab persons who have somehow been attracted to Islam for x,y or z reasons... much like it has always spread throughout history... btw, your opinion 1robin, does not reflect any known reality that an historian can attest to - and that is a fact.

Scimi

I paid the Homo sapiens not defend the human and wise don't defend from evil
And Islam from the historical evidence
And the long March was spread by the sword
In the first movement in the first stages
As for the other phases are an encouragement to
And many Islamic carrot
They allow polygamy
Have fun with women
Enjoy with slaves and **** them
Let the men have their trophies
Booty in the Islamic wars are permissible
Racial discrimination
Inequality
All means of coaxing
This religion is faith
If where all these pleasures
It's no different from ancient religions
Before Christianity
The sex was permissible where
Today Islam is spread by other means
Ignorance in fact Islam is a movement and a colonial outpost and Satanic ideology
And also the Arab oil money
Exploitation of the West away from the Christian roots that have contributed to the revival of scientific
Exploitation of the West in the teachings of tolerance
The exploitation of women in the West
All these reasons contributed to the spread of Islam
The complete ignorance by the teachings of Islam
Why is spread
But every day the world wakes to the fact this ideology
Deadly
And the criminal human right and human
​

 

[Scimitar]

so what you are saying is that you paid a man for a hot dog and then thought you'd share it with a Moozlum? Hmmm.... I think that's accurate... right?

You NEED to learn English man, your Arabic to English translation is rubbish.

And the person you paid took your money and did not translate it - it looks the same as your other nonsensical and cryptically idiotic posts... wasteman,

 

[Scimitar]

Famous historian, De Lacy O'Leary

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross roads” (Page 8 ): “History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”

Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.

14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians.

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

More than 80% non-Muslims in India.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non- Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

Indonesia and Malaysia.

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”

East Coast of Africa.

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, “Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?”

Famous Historian, Thomas Carlyle.

The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book “Heroes and Hero worship”, refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: “The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can.”

No compulsion in religion.

With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Quran says in the following verse:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error”
[Quran 2:256]

Scimi

 

[Scimitar]

Syrian archaeological dig reveals myth of Islam spreading by the sword

by Mike Addelman
Source: The University of Manchester

An archaeologist working in Syria has solved the mystery of why one of Islam’s earliest fortresses dropped out of the historical record around 1,100 years ago.

Senior Lecturer Dr Emma Loosley from The University of Manchester was one of an international team of experts invited into the world-renowned Khanuqa Gap by the Syrian Department of Antiquities before its secrets – and 11,000 years of human history – may be lost to a controversial dam project.

Dr Loosley, who has been unable to return to Syria because of the current conflict, found that 1,100 years ago a fire raged through what was regarded as an impregnable fortress.

Her work has also helped show that, contrary to popular understanding, the earliest Muslim expansion across the Middle East was largely peaceful and typified by coexistence with Christians.

Like Jerusalem’s Dome of the Rock, the citadel – called Zalabiyeh – was one of the first buildings to be inhabited by Muslims as they spread across the Syrian desert.

It was constructed during the Byzantine Empire before being renovated under the Umayyad Dynasty during Islam’s first period of expansion from Mecca in the early seventh century.

The first of four Arab caliphates following the death of Muhammed, the Umayyad dynasty left Mecca to establish one of the largest empires the world had yet seen.

Zalabiyeh, its sister citadel Halabiyeh and dozens of other crucially important sites may be flooded as part of a major HEP project.

Dr Loosley’s undergraduate student Joshua Bryant, who worked with her, was able to date the citadel to c.500 AD by analysing the way its walls were constructed.

He received a University award for his dissertation which he hopes to publish in a journal – a rare feat for an undergraduate.

Dr Loosley excavated burned beams and roof tiles – alongside other finds -including a fully functioning barracks, a human tooth, copper belt buckle, plaster spinning wheel, fragments of an alabaster mirror, and painted wall plaster.

She also found some ovens still crammed with charred chicken bones and ash.

The evidence points to a fire which forced the soldiers to leave but also a peaceful takeover of the previously Byzantine controlled citadel by Umayyad soldiers.

The artefacts are in Syria awaiting further analysis by Dr Loosley once – or if – she is able to return.

She said: “There is little evidence of any violence in the years before the citadel burned down, but there is intriguingly so much more to learn.

“We don’t even know if the soldiers who took over control from the Byzantines were Muslims or Christians even though they were subjects of the Umayadd caliph.

“Coexistence typified those times: some even argue that one reason why so many Christians converted to Islam is because the major sources of tension and conflict were between Christian factions themselves.”

She added: “The Khanuqa Gap is a major crossing point on the River Euphrates and so has been politically, economically and socially important to human beings for 11,000 years.

“It contains evidence of continuous human settlement through many civilisations including Assyrian, Roman, Arab – an astonishing area to work in and one of the most important in the world.

“So our work to understand as much as we can before it disappears is hugely important and I hope to be able go back as soon as it is safe to do so.”

The work was funded by the British Academy and the Osmane Aidi foundation.

A version of Dr Loosley’s book, Christian Responses to Islam and Muslim-Christian Relations in the Modern World, edited with Anthony O’Mahony is published by Manchester University Press in January 2012.

Seems the Myth of Islam spreading by the sword is losing its momentum in the modern age as evidence and proof stacks up against the likes of the fools who tried to prove otherwise here have a nice day all.

It still amuses me to see non Muslims think they are the authority on anything Islamic - total fail on their parts hehehe

Scimi

 

[Scimitar]

Was Islam spread by the sword?

No.

For example:

Spread of Islam in Circassians: [6]

History

Circassia was a small independent nation on the northeastern shore of the Black Sea. For no reason other than ethnic hatred, over the course of hundreds of raids the Russians drove the Circassians from their homeland and deported them to the Ottoman Empire. At least 600,000 people lost their lives to massacre, starvation, and the elements while hundreds of thousands more were forced to leave their homeland. By 1864, three-fourths of the population was annihilated, and the Circassians had become one of the first stateless peoples in modern history.
— Walter Richmond, The Circassian Genocide [48]

Language

Circassians mainly speak the Circassian language, a Northwest Caucasian language with numerous dialects, the primary ones being Adyghe (West Circassian) and Kabardian (East Circassian). Circassians also speak Turkish and Arabic in large numbers, having being exiled by Russia to lands of the Ottoman Empire, where the majority of them live today.

Lesser numbers of Circassians speak Russian, English, and German.
The native language is spoken among all the Circassian communities around the world, with about 125,000 speakers who live in the Russian Federation, some of whom live in the Republic of Adygea where the Adyghe language is defined as the official language. The world's largest Adyghe-speaking community is the Circassian community in Turkey — it has about 150,000 Adyghe speakers.

The Circassians who migrated to the United States are facing an asimiliation crisis. Each new generation of circassians are not preserving their language. Historians predict the language will be extinct within the next 50 years in the U.S.

Religion

The ethnic religion of Circassians (Adyghes) was Habze — a philosophical and religious system of personal values and the relationship of an individual to others, to the world around him, and to the Higher Mind. In essence, it represents monotheism with a much-defined system of worshipping One God — the Mighty Tha (Tha, Thashxue). During the time of the settlement of Greek cities / colonies on the coast of the Black Sea there was an intermingling of cultures. Circassian mythology has noticeable aspects from Greek mythology. In return, there is evidence that Greek mythology also borrowed from Circassian legends. In the 6th century, under Byzantine influence, many Adyghes became Christian, but under the growing influence of the Ottomans, many of them became Muslims.

Throughout Circassian history the ethnic religion of Circassians has interacted with Christianity and Islam.

Christianity reached and spread throughout the Caucasus and was first introduced between the 4th century[40] and the 6th century[41] under Greek Byzantine influence and later through the Georgians between the 10th century and the 13th century. During that period, Circassians began to accept Christianity as their national religion, but did not fully adopt Christianity as elements of their ancient indigenous religious beliefs still survived.

Islam reached the northeastern region of the Caucasus, principally Dagestan, as early as the 7th century, but was first introduced to the Circassians between the 16th century and in the middle of the 19th century under the influence of the Crimean Tatars, the Ottoman Turks and the Persians.
In the modern times, it has been reported that some Circassians practice their traditional religious faith Habzism, whose adherents constitute 12% of the population of Karachay-Cherkessia and 3% of the population of Kabardino-Balkaria.[67][68]

There have also been reports of violence against those practising the older religion. Aslan Tsipinov, an advocate of Habzism in Kabardino-Balkaria, was murdered by radical Islamists in 2010, who had warned him months earlier to stop publicizing the rituals of the original Circassian faith.[69][70]

Today, the majority of Circassians are predominantly Sunni Muslim and adhere to the Hanafi school of thought, or law, the largest and oldest school of Islamic law in jurisprudence within Sunni Islam. There is also a small number of Catholics, the faith having been introduced to the area during the Middle Ages by Venetian and Genoese traders, who now account for just under 1% of Russia's Circassians.[71]

Circassians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't see any sword in spread of Islam in Circassians.

Regards

^ and that too

 

[1robin]

You are simply wrong.

Regards

Declarations are not arguments and every one of those can be proven.

 

[Harikrish]

The question to be asked. Was Islam driven out from countries by the sword?

Islamic state was established in India for a 1000 years. Yet the Indians rejected Islam and Muslim influence. .Today the Muslims in India are less than 14 percent of the population and are among the least educated and poorest.

How many Muslim countries have implemented the Sharia law? If Islam is so good why are the Muslim countries refusing to follow the Sharia law and adopting secular democracies instead.

All the beheading and killings going on in the Middle East is the beginning of an Islamic revival. It is only by the sword can Islam force its converts to blindly follow its Jihadist agenda.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Islam in India...

Islam in Spain...

Islam in North Africa...

How did Islam originally make it's way into Mecca to begin with?

 

[jonathan180iq]

Famous historian, De Lacy O'Leary

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross roads” (Page 8 ): “History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”

Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.

14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians.

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

More than 80% non-Muslims in India.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non- Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

Indonesia and Malaysia.

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”

East Coast of Africa.

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, “Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?”

Famous Historian, Thomas Carlyle.

The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book “Heroes and Hero worship”, refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: “The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can.”

No compulsion in religion.

With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Quran says in the following verse:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error”
[Quran 2:256]

Scimi

According to Paarsurrey, we can't trust History. It was written by men. Men are flawed and never say anything right. The only source we can use is the holy Quran itself...

 

[Flankerl]

Famous historian, De Lacy O'Leary

As if you've ever read a single book he wrote.

Famous Historian, Thomas Carlyle.

As if you've ever read a single book he wrote.

Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert.

"The decline of the Golden Age began before the completion of the Christian Reconquista, with the penetration and influence of the Almoravides, and then the Almohads, from North Africa. These fundamentalist sects abhorred the liberality of the Islamic culture of al-Andalus, including the position of authority some dhimmis held over Muslims. When the Almohads gave the Jews a choice of either death or conversion to Islam, many Jews emigrated. Some, such as the family of Maimonides, fled south and east to the more tolerant Muslim lands, while others went northward to settle in the growing Christian kingdoms."

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews#Jews_in_Muslim_Iberia

More than 80% non-Muslims in India.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non- Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

The important numbers are the last ones of British India before and during the partition.
Around 7.000.000 Indian Muslims fled India and around 7.000.000 Indian Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians... fled Pakistan.



But i know who iam talking to.

 

[icehorse]

Scimitar said:

More than 80% non-Muslims in India.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non- Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

But this summary doesn't mention that during that time, conquering Muslims murdered about 80 MILLION Hindus.

Now I'm not putting Christianity ahead of Islam. But I am suggesting that we should ALL be honest about the bloody pasts that religions were a part of.

 

[1robin]

According to Paarsurrey, we can't trust History. It was written by men. Men are flawed and never say anything right. The only source we can use is the holy Quran itself...

Not when it is convenient for Islam. For some reason these crazy scholars got all that perfect.

 

[1robin]

Famous historian, De Lacy O'Leary

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross roads” (Page 8 ): “History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.”

Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.


With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Quran says in the following verse:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error”
[Quran 2:256]

Scimi

Why is ever challenge to Islam answer with the word Spain. What happened to them after Spain that was so bad it is treated by Muslims as if it never occurred?

 

[jonathan180iq]

It's also crap... How did Islam come to have an influence in Spain to begin with? Was it not a huge invading army, spreading Islam where it was not wanted?

711? The war with King Roderic?
712? An army nearly 20,000 strong invading the peninsula?

It's not like this wave of peace-keeping holy men invaded a soverign nation and prayed them into submission...

Suggesting otherwise is idiocy.

 

[Scimitar]

But this summary doesn't mention that during that time, conquering Muslims murdered about 80 MILLION Hindus.

Now I'm not putting Christianity ahead of Islam. But I am suggesting that we should ALL be honest about the bloody pasts that religions were a part of.

80 million Hindu myth debunked in a previous post - you shoulda checked - but hey coz I'm a nice guy, here you go - along the way debunking the figures so that the claim looks like a stupid racist attempt by EDL type hooligans:

I came again across the claim that “Islam is the bloodiest religion ever” and has killed 270 million people. This claim was made on Facebook by a supporter of the English Defence League. The usual twaddle about “educate yourself”, which is right up there with other catchphrases like “Do your research” and “Open your eyes”.

This is the original comment to which I was responding.

"This is a world problem. They have killed 270 million non-Muslims. Isn’t that enough? And they do it brutally. You must educate yourself."

As I suspected that an EDL supporter’s ‘research’ amounts to believing and repeating whatever it says on some Islamophobic website and knowing the claimed death toll was ridiculous, I decided to investigate the claims. Below is my reply to the EDL supporter, which was very comprehensive, in its entirety. I came across the website and the claim was made by Bill Warner, who gave sources for his claims. I therefore actually went and investigated his sources, discovering that for the most part he was claiming things that weren’t even mentioned in his sources.

Right, let’s have a look at the source of this claim. This gives the sources: http://cafejohn.com/is-islam-the-bloodiest-ideology-ever/

Africans

Thomas Sowell estimates that eleven million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and fourteen million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached the plantation, five others died by being killed in the raid or died on the forced march from illness and privation. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have the collateral death of about 120 million people. Muslims ran all the wholesale slave trade in Africa. Death toll: 120 million Africans”

First of all the 5 to 1 ratio is based on an estimate by one man, who was in one part of Africa for a limited period of the history of slavery, and who was making a guess. Secondly 25 million times 5 is 125 million. A more reliable estimate, i.e. not one based on a single eye witness making a rough guess, is Rummel.

Rummel estimates a total death toll of 17,267,000 African slaves (1451-1870)

Among slaves going to Orient: 2,400,000 dead
Among slaves staying in Africa: 1,200,000 dead
Among slaves going to New World: 13,667,000 dead

Also [Thomas Sowell estimates] 11 million of those slaves were transported by Christian slavers, who seem to be strangely absent from the narrative, with huge numbers dying on the way.

Christians
The number of Christians martyred by Islam is nine million. A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another fifty million died in wars by jihad. So to account for the one million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have: 60 million Christians”

David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10, the source of the nine million Christians killed, pops up all over the place when it comes to doing just what you’re doing. Martyrdom according to them can include accidents, killing people for money, martyrdom where only the victim knows they’re a martyr and domestic violence. In other words any Christian that is killed for any reason is a martyr. They also speak of “End Times” as part of their future projection, a religious fundamentalist belief that somewhat makes me doubt the credibility of their claims.

They claim that 9.1 million Christians have been killed by Muslims, but also say that 7.47 million have been killed by shamanists, 5.3 million by other Christians and 31.7 million have been killed by atheists.

David B. Barrett also wrote the World Christian Encyclopedia that "consistently gave a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets", so he inflates figures in other words.
"A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another fifty million died in wars by jihad."

Hooray, a ‘rough estimate’! What Moore actually says is:
"Between the tolls exacted from prisons, concentration camps, forced marches and exiles, warfare, famine, and brutal military occupation, it is reasonable to conclude that up to 50 million Orthodox Christians have perished in the first eight decades of the twentieth century."

In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust

That’s as a cause of all persecution, not just Muslims. So that includes Communism and Nazism. He [Raphael Moore] gives the death toll of Orthodox Christians by the Ottoman Empire as 3,650,000. So that knocks 46,350,000 off the 270 million figure straight away.

Hindus
Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of eighty million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. Death toll: 80 million Hindus”
Koenraad Elst is a contributer to various Far Right publications and has a particular dislike for Islam that he compares to Nazism. That’s not a good start if we are looking for an unbiased source!

So this is what he [Koenraad Elst] uses for his belief that Muslims killed 80 million Hindus: Negationism In India - Chapter Two - Negationism In India
"As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention Prof. K.S.Lal’s estimates about the population figures in medieval India (Growth of Muslim Population in India). According to his calculations, the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate). More research is needed before we can settle for a quantitatively accurate evaluation of Muslim rule in India, but at least we know for sure that the term crime against humanity is not exaggerated." K. Elst, Negationism in India.
So in other words the Muslim genocide against Hindus is based on nothing more than population decline over 525 years! That could be a natural decline, famines or plagues! Seeing as white British birthrates have dropped over the last 40 years, shall we say the Muslims are committing genocide against British whites?

TBC

 

[Scimitar]

Buddhists
Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly ten million. Death toll: 10 million Buddhists”
The reference for that is given as “Barrett and Johnson, table 4”, which in fact lists the types of Christian martyrs and makes no mention of Buddhists whatsoever. In fact they only mention the 1.81 million Christians killed by Buddhists. The only other references to the 10 million figure are the various neo-Nazi and anti-Muslim websites that abound. So that’s another 10 million that can’t be accounted for.

Jews
The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.”
No references for this at all, but the Jews only formed a few scattered tribes in Arabia anyway (they weren’t a majority that was wiped out by Islam) and still constitute a minority. Jews never had the status of Christians in Christian countries anyway and actually were better treated in Muslim ones. Christians had a nasty habit in indulging in pogroms. Please tell us what happened to the American Indian native religions when America was settled by Christians?
"This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad."
Rough as in give or take 256,350,000!

Let’s go back to the person who compiled all this information and came up with the 270 million figure.

"For the first time I have seen the estimate of Islamic death toll in an interview with Bill Warner, the director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam. I have put the numbers into the context of other well know brutal world atrocities."

Bill Warner’s website has on its blog page an article that compares the Koran to Mein Kampf, which is a breach of Godwin’s Law straight away. If this was an academic paper about Islam that would discredit it immediately. It also contains an article entitled “An Ethical Basis for War Against Political Islam” and there’s this too:

http://www.zimbio.com/Islam/articles/jPX5qkzcZIq/TWO+BILL+WARNER+Bill+Warner+director+Center

"We must form political units that work in unison. Our nation started with conventions. Kafirs must get together in forums, groups and conventions. Before any government goes to war against political Islam, it must be pressured to do so by its citizens."
"Any convention must form an intellectual basis for war. That is, it must define the enemy. It is the purpose of the enemy, Islam, to annihilate our kafir civilization."

So in other words he wants World War III against Muslims. Well his figure of 270 million killed by Muslims is just bound to be completely unrelated to him saying that Islam is an enemy that must be destroyed!

I’ve since encountered this ridiculous claim by someone who obviously lusts for a genocidal world war on his website “Political Islam”, which is here: Political Islam It’s been repeated everywhere and is always used as a reason to terrify people about Muslims.
According to the actual sources provided by Warner that give actual figures of people killed by Muslims, not his guesses, and including Rummel’s genocide figures that I used, the death toll comes down to:
3.6 million non-Christian Africans not 120 million (2,400,000 dead slaves going to the Orient + 1,200,000 dead slaves staying in Africa).
9.1 million Christians not 60 million. Even that may be an over-estimate though, because of the questionable methods of David B. Barrett. Warner claims 9 million Christians were martyred by Islam, but then includes all 50 million Orthodox Christians killed by Communism and Nazism as being victims of Islam. He also includes "one million African Christians killed in the 20th century", which he gives no source for to prove whether they were all killed by Muslims or if that figure is even true. So he says 9 million Christians have been killed by Islam in total, then adds another 51 million to that total!
An indeterminate number of Hindus not 80 million. Obviously Hindus are killed by Muslims, but with no actual figures we will have to ignore Warner’s 80 million figure.

An indeterminate number of Buddhists not 10 million. Obviously Buddhists are killed by Muslims, but with no actual figures we will have to ignore Warner’s 10 million figure.

No genocide of the Jews in Saudi Arabia. This seems to stem from the incident at the Battle of the Trench in 627 in which the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza, who were allies of the Muslims, swapped sides and fought against them. As a result of their treachery 400 to 900 men of the tribe were killed and the women and children were enslaved. However this sentence was carried out in accordance to Jewish law, as in the Torah, on the decree of the chief of another Jewish tribe who were still allied to the Muslims. This plus mistranslated passages in the Koran is part of the Islamophobic belief that Islam is anti-Semitic and Mohammed rampaged round Arabia slaughtering Jews. The fact of the matter is that they were not killed for being Jews but for being traitors. For comparison during the First Crusade in 1096 at least 800 Jews were killed at Worms and 1,100 Jews were killed at Mainz by Christians for being Jews. Yet the English Defence League model themselves on crusaders. During the Black Death in 1349 Jews were suspected of causing the plague by poisoning wells, so 600 Jews were burned alive in Basel, between 900 and 2,000 Jews were burned alive in Strasbourg, another 420 Jews were massacred in Worms, 6,000 Jews died in Mainz and another 4,000 Jews in Breslau. Tens of thousands of Jews were murdered during the Black Death, all by Christians for being Jewish.

Total = 12.7 million not 270 million people killed by Muslims over about 1,400 years and not specifically in the name of Islam either. The Ottomans didn’t kill the Armenians in the name of Islam for instance. A similar number of Jews, Poles, Soviet POWs, Romani, disabled people, socialists, trade unionists, homosexuals, pacifists and Jehovah’s Witnesses were exterminated over a 6 year period by Christians.

Previously in my haste I accidentally left out the Africans who died in North Africa and the Middle East, and didn’t include the 3.65 million Christian victims of the Ottoman Empire and the mysterious 1 million African Christians figure in the rounded down Christian total of 9 million. A double count of Christian deaths in other words. That was 9 million + 3.65 million + 1 million = 13.65 million. This time it goes 9.1 million + 3.6 million = 12.7 million, meaning that Bill Warner was out by 257.3 million.

And that should quieten down the rest of these so called members who are jumping on this ridiculously stupidly thought out premise of Muslims killing 80 million Hindus in India... pfft... you do realise that what you are regurgitating is not historically accurate information - and any serious historian (of whom, I keep company with) would shake their heads in frustration at the loss of intellect displayed by members here.

best.

Scimi

 

[Scimitar]

SO PLEASE TRY AGAIN pfft... I know method, I know how to research history, and I am well versed comparatives as well as other things I have not let you know...

SO PLEASE TRY AGAIN.

Scimi

 

[icehorse]

Scimitar - As you well know comparing one source to another source proves nothing. What's really required is to find many sources. The initial source I used was wikipedia, which I find to generally be even handed.

How about you commit to laying off the ad hominem attacks? Or is that what your mentors teach you to do? If you really want to discuss this stuff, discuss the ideas... what say you?

 

[Scimitar]

wikipedia is editable by any nincompoop - I don't use wiki as scholarly research material - I have libraries at my disposal - online ones - and the argument from authority is validated over the argument from ignorance - so you really don't have a point Ice, sorry to tell it like it is, but you don't.

Scimi