Was Jesus a Mystic?

[doppelganger]

Of the top of my head, recalling His words in the New Testament, I'd have to say He didn't talk like a mystic.

I and the father are one.
Whatever you do unto the least of these, you do unto me.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.


Yes, there's an exoteric way to read all of those. But all of them are also capable of being interpreted in a way that breathes a mystical life into them, as well.

Of course, these are all actually the words chosen by various authors to attribute to Jesus, so they are combined with other statements that might not be supportive of the view of Jesus as mystic. The Jesus of "John" though, is presented in a way that can be pretty consistently interpreted as a mystic.

 

[Inthedark]

Do we all look in the deep well and see our own Jesus in our own reflection? (as a mystic might say!). I agree with some posters in this thread that we take from Jesus what we want, seeing with our life experiences as Jesus relates to us, to one degree or another. That is human and a mystic approach. Of course we are told what to think is well and all is black and white according to the literal version of many churches, but is that really what the writings are saying?

The only way to God (pure consciousness) is through Jesus, is that something like Jesus said according to the bible? The Kingdom lies with? There are many references which sound like mysticism aren' there?

For mystics it was about circumnavigating the ego, which was a reflection of the outer you, and connecting with your consciousness within, the dot at the centre of that circle so to speak. Through this realising that we are all one and infact God in that way. Heaven and hell are here and now, depending on your state of being. Jesus makes sense as a mystic to me and it resonates with me, but not as a literal story of coming back to life after death etc.

:yes:

 

[sojourner]

Of course Jesus was a mystic. Any who draw energy from reflection, contemplation and meditation are. Jesus went apart to pray often.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Inthe dark,

but not as a literal story of coming back to life after death etc.

If one agrees with mysticism then it should also be understood and agreed that there is no permenent death and only chnage of form as God [Pure consciousness] always remains and includes everything including us.
Yes, as you have mentioned it cannot be literal but surely personal understanding is that human evolution continues to another form and that form is super human where humans are always in meditation even in their words and actions and so are connectted with that WHOLE at all times.

Love & rgds

 

[Valjean]

(had to re-read the transfiguration passages )

These are miraculous, to be sure, Max, but not followed by any mystical revelations: no discussion of Unity, of the Nature of Reality or of illusion. If These were mystical experiences neither Jesus nor Mary subsequently revealed any special metaphysical insights or teaching.
This is why I say He didn't talk like a mystic and why I don't see the Abrahamic religions as mystical.

 

[Valjean]

Of course Jesus was a mystic. Any who draw energy from reflection, contemplation and meditation are. Jesus went apart to pray often.

He may have been a mystic, but you'd never know it from the Bible. Mysticism is a fundamental alteration of one's perception of reality; a psychedelic experience.

 

[Student of X]

He may have been a mystic, but you'd never know it from the Bible.

Well, reading Romeo & Juliet, you'd never know Shakespeare was a mystic. But, he was.

Mysticism is a fundamental alteration of one's perception of reality; a psychedelic experience.

That would make every shaman a mystic, but no. It takes more than a psychedelic experience, imo. It also means undergoing certain stages of development over a period of time. Stages which Jesus went through, such as a purgative stage. After all, magicians and sorcerers undergo a fundamental alteration of their perception of reality too. But they aren't mystics.

This book makes the universal stages of mystical development plain to see.

 

[Valjean]

There's been very little neurologic research done into mystical states, Student, but I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of shamans who were mystics didn't exceed that of Christian or Buddhist monks.

While I understand that many spend their lives trying to achieve mystical insight, it doesn't appear to be a staged development. People tend to 'pop into' mystical states in sudden explosions of insight.
Interestingly, the similarity of this experience to a left temporal lobe seizure is uncanny.

I don't see any similarity of magicians and sorcerers to mystics. Could you clarify the parallels?

Characteristics of the mystical experience:
1) Unity. This is the hallmark of the mystical experience. A sense of underlying oneness beyond our usual sense of empirical multiplicity. A dissolution of the sense of separation between self and object.
2) Transcendence of time and space. A loss of temporal and spacial orientation, a feeling of being simultaneously everywhere and everywhen.
3) Deep, positive mood. An overwhelming, ecstatic sense of joy, sacredness and peace.
4) Sacredness. A non-rational, intuitive, palpitant sense of awe and wonder and holiness.
5) Objectivity/Reality. An intuitive, self-verifying direct experience of an Objective Reality underlying the subjective perception of everyday consciousness.
6) Ineffability. The impossibility of describing the experience. (I find an interesting difference here between the Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Whilst the Buddhists make little attempt to relay the mystical experience in words, we Hindus are constantly attempting to describe the indescribable in all sorts of elaborate an confusing explanations).

 

[Prophet]

I would say it is far more likely Jesus got his mystical material from Hellenization. Socrates' enlightenment movement in Athens preceded Jesus' movement by a few hundred years, and, if my memory serves me right, the Greek Empire rose under Alexander the Great not too long after that.

 

[Student of X]

There's been very little neurologic research done into mystical states, Student, but I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of shamans who were mystics didn't exceed that of Christian or Buddhist monks.

In my opinion Jesus was a shaman and a mystic. He seemed to have all or most of the abilities of a shaman (exorcism, healing, soul retrieval) plus his mystical philosophy seems to conform to the perennial philosophy.

While I understand that many spend their lives trying to achieve mystical insight, it doesn't appear to be a staged development. People tend to 'pop into' mystical states in sudden explosions of insight.
Interestingly, the similarity of this experience to a left temporal lobe seizure is uncanny.

According to Underhill the first stage is the awakening. The second is a psychological "purgation of self." The third is illumination. The fourth is the "dark night of the soul." The last is Unity.

I don't see any similarity of magicians and sorcerers to mystics. Could you clarify the parallels?

Have you ever heard of chaos magic?

 

[doppelganger]

Have you ever heard of chaos magic?

Yes, good example of mysticism working with the symbols/language of "magic". I consider the Principia Discordia to be a product of an author trying to work with genuine mystic insight.

 

[doppelganger]

According to Underhill the first stage is the awakening. The second is a psychological "purgation of self." The third is illumination. The fourth is the "dark night of the soul." The last is Unity.

I've always liked the poetic form of this in Nietzsche's "Three Metamorphoses of the Soul" in Thus Spake Zarathustra.

 

[maxfreakout]

These are miraculous, to be sure, Max, but not followed by any mystical revelations: no discussion of Unity, of the Nature of Reality or of illusion. If These were mystical experiences neither Jesus nor Mary subsequently revealed any special metaphysical insights or teaching.
This is why I say He didn't talk like a mystic and why I don't see the Abrahamic religions as mystical.

there are varying definitions of what 'mystical' means, but one of them is:
"Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God"

and according to this definition i think Mary's encounter with an angel (ie a divine agent) counts as mystical, also the angel revealed Mary's destiny as the mother of God to her, which could be understood as a kind of mystical revelation

Also, on the wiki page about the transfiguration it makes the following (referenced) statement:
"In Christian teachings, the Transfiguration is a pivotal moment, and the setting on the mountain is presented as the point where human nature meets God: the meeting place for the temporal and the eternal, with Jesus himself as the connecting point, acting as the bridge between heaven and earth"

this seems to imply some kind of divine unity, which could support the idea that this was a mystical experience. But i agree that this is an ambiguous issue

However when Jesus says 'me and the father are one', that sounds unambiguously like mystical talk to me, he is saying that his will is united with the divine will, which is another prominent theme in mystical experiences

 

[maxfreakout]

He may have been a mystic, but you'd never know it from the Bible. Mysticism is a fundamental alteration of one's perception of reality; a psychedelic experience.

what do you think about Jesus' statement that he is one with the father? Does that not imply some kind of mysticism?

Mysticism is a fundamental alteration of one's perception of reality; a psychedelic experience.

I very much agree with you on this point except i would say this ^ of mystical experience, not mysticism. Mysticism is the beliefs, doctrines and metaphysical systems that arise as a result of mystical (psychedelic) experiencing

i think the stories about Jesus are allegorical for psychedelic tripping, for example when he walks on water, that is a reference to the visual alterations of a psychedelic trip (floors and walls flowing and undulating like water), this also applies to Moses' journey through the red sea (when he looks to the side, he sees solid walls made of flowing water). The crucifixion is allegorical of mystical death and rebirth experience in the psychedelic state of consciousness

 

[Student of X]

i think the stories about Jesus are allegorical for psychedelic tripping, for example when he walks on water, that is a reference to the visual alterations of a psychedelic trip (floors and walls flowing and undulating like water), this also applies to Moses' journey through the red sea (when he looks to the side, he sees solid walls made of flowing water). The crucifixion is allegorical of mystical death and rebirth experience in the psychedelic state of consciousness

You could be right and there are certainly layers of meanings that can be unfolded in the stories. But I am of the opinion that Jesus was a super-psychic. In principle it's possible that he had mind-over-matter abilities, telepathic abilities, and psychic healing abilities. To name a few.

I have more than a passing interest in parapsychology and more than a few psychic experiences under my belt so such an opinion comes quite easily to me but I can see how other people would have a big problem with it.

 

[Valjean]

I don't really see just meeting an incorporeal entity as a mystical experience, Student. With Mary it might have been mysterious but no metaphysical insight was communicated, just a message about an upcoming pregnancy and what to name the baby.
Sort of like a ghost encounter.

Transfiguration: Who knows what level of consciousness the participants were in? Two of them vanished and the third kept mum. Note there were at least three distinct entities -- hardly a unity.

"I and my father are one" does seem to imply some sort of mystical unity, as does the trinity doctrine itself, but the concept is never really explored in Christianity.
I've never heard of any kind of "will" being associated with the mystical experience, though. The unitary position would be that "I and my father are existentially indistinguishable," in fact "my father" in this context, would be meaningless or incomprehensible.

 

[doppelganger]

"I and my father are one" does seem to imply some sort of mystical unity, as does the trinity doctrine itself, but the concept is never really explored in Christianity.

In mainstream Christian religions it really isn't. But there have always been "gnostics" and Christian mystics that have focused on identity with Christ rather Christ as redemptive agent.

 

[Valjean]

Agreed, Dopp. Since these seizures occur universally there are always 'mystics' reporting them, sometimes even starting movements.

 

[Student of X]

I don't really see just meeting an incorporeal entity as a mystical experience, Student. With Mary it might have been mysterious but no metaphysical insight was communicated, just a message about an upcoming pregnancy and what to name the baby.
Sort of like a ghost encounter.

May I ask if you have ever interacted with an incorporeal entity?

Transfiguration: Who knows what level of consciousness the participants were in? Two of them vanished and the third kept mum. Note there were at least three distinct entities -- hardly a unity.

The goal of Taoist alchemy seems to be a similar transfiguration. It seems that many or most mystical traditions have an equivalent to the transfiguration.

"I and my father are one" does seem to imply some sort of mystical unity, as does the trinity doctrine itself, but the concept is never really explored in Christianity.
I've never heard of any kind of "will" being associated with the mystical experience, though. The unitary position would be that "I and my father are existentially indistinguishable," in fact "my father" in this context, would be meaningless or incomprehensible.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"Christian mysticism stresses the importance of experiencing the dualistic god-object, while Vedanta stresses the importance of experiencing the non-dualistic, absolute, all pervading Brahman."

Ethics of the Mystic Heart
[/FONT]
I think there's room for both.

 

[maxfreakout]

I don't really see just meeting an incorporeal entity as a mystical experience, Student.

it isnt the incorporeality that makes it mystical, rather it is the divinity of the entity, it was one of God's angelic messengers


this all comes down to how one defines the term 'mystical', i tend to think of any divine encounter as being 'mystical', that is how i define/understand the term. And Mary's revelation/impregnation by an angel was clearly a divine encounter, a meeting of 2 levels

With Mary it might have been mysterious but no metaphysical insight was communicated, just a message about an upcoming pregnancy and what to name the baby.

but couldnt these ^ be the same thing? (ie a false dichotomy), i disagree that this was "just a message about an upcoming pregnancy and what to name the baby", that is needlessly trivializing the event. This was a divine angelic messenger impregnating Mary with the son of God. The 'metaphysical insight' that Mary gained, was the information that she was the mother of God

Transfiguration: Who knows what level of consciousness the participants were in?

i think the description of the event indicates that this was not based in the ordinary state/level of consciousness, ie glowing white light, divine radiance and the appearance of the prophets