Was Jesus a Mystic?

[maxfreakout]

May I ask if you have ever interacted with an incorporeal entity?

this is a very common experience in psychedelic tripping (especially with tryptamine-based drugs)

 

[maxfreakout]

I've never heard of any kind of "will" being associated with the mystical experience,

consider Abraham's experience of the substitute sacrifice of Isaac (one of the foundational events of judaism), it clearly involves an interaction of different levels of willpower, the divine level, the father Abraham's level, and the son Isaac's level. A father is instructed by God to tie up and murder his own son.

 

[maxfreakout]

That would make every shaman a mystic, but no.
It takes more than a psychedelic experience, imo. It also means undergoing certain stages of development over a period of time. Stages which Jesus went through, such as a purgative stage. After all, magicians and sorcerers undergo a fundamental alteration of their perception of reality too. But they aren't mystics.

every shaman has undergone the process of shamanic transformation/rebirth, that is how they become a shaman, this is essentially the same thing as the process that 'mystics' undergo. A shaman doesnt just have one psychedelic experience in order to become a shaman, it requires a whole process of transformation and training, and many exposures to the psychedelic state, a shaman has to learn to master the chaos of the psychedelic state in order to be able to help other people through it (this is basically what their job is, facilitating other people's trips)

This book makes the universal stages of mystical development plain to see.

i think underhill's system is unnecessarily convoluted, these multiple stages of transformation are not clearly individuated

 

[Willamena]

this is a very common experience in psychedelic tripping (especially with tryptamine-based drugs)

Um, you just implied that you do drugs, frequently.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I have read a number of books about the likelihood of the historical Jesus being this or that. John Domonic Crossan in Jesus A Revolutionary Biography describes him as a Jewish sage and cynic, having likely been exposed to Greek Cynicism in a nearby city to Nazereth where Cynics are known to have been. The similarities in his lifestyle and ministry and that of the cynics is striking.

Others (such as Freke and Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries) talk of exposure to mysticism in a variety of forms such as Pythagarians and other Greek (mystic pagan) philosophers whose disciples travelled the ancient Mediteranian region, or Jesus himself being a mystic invention to convey truths.

Was Jesus a Jewish mystic, open and inclusive of other mystic allegories and myths? Mystics were often open to such things with a view to reaching enlightenment or sometimes described "oneness with God".

I'd be interested to hear some views from anyone with some interest in this area.

Cheers.

As far as my signature is concerned, absolutely.

 

[maxfreakout]

Um, you just implied that you do drugs, frequently.

everybody takes drugs all the time, oxygen is a drug

 

[angellous_evangellous]

oxygen is a drug

Water is a drug
Dirty Socks are drugs
Dogs are drugs

This is your brain on drugs

 

[Student of X]

every shaman has undergone the process of shamanic transformation/rebirth, that is how they become a shaman, this is essentially the same thing as the process that 'mystics' undergo. A shaman doesnt just have one psychedelic experience in order to become a shaman, it requires a whole process of transformation and training, and many exposures to the psychedelic state, a shaman has to learn to master the chaos of the psychedelic state in order to be able to help other people through it (this is basically what their job is, facilitating other people's trips)

True, but a shaman is only a shaman insofar as he performs certain jobs for his community. He or she need not have a God to do them. He could do them with an animal guide or with the spirit of an ancestor.

A mystic undergoes rebirth as a shaman does but a mystic is only a mystic insofar as he is on a path toward union with the Divine, or a similar path such as Jungian individuation. She need not fill a role in a community.

A magician or sorcerer must undergo a transpersonal state too, but doesn't use his gifts for his community as a shaman or to grow closer to the formless Absolute or to a God as a mystic does. He uses his gifts and knowledge for personal gain.

 

[Valjean]

May I ask if you have ever interacted with an incorporeal entity?

One bizarre experience at the age of five or six of being physically attacked by the 'spirit ('?) of my brother sleeping nearby. Nothing mystical about it, though.

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"Christian mysticism stresses the importance of experiencing the dualistic god-object, while Vedanta stresses the importance of experiencing the non-dualistic, absolute, all pervading Brahman."
Ethics of the Mystic Heart

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I think there's room for both.

Good point, Student. I'm speaking from neurological and Eastern mystical perspectives, but I'm finding the Christian "mystical" viewpoints very interesting.

it isnt the incorporeality that makes it mystical, rather it is the divinity of the entity, it was one of God's angelic messengers

this all comes down to how one defines the term 'mystical', i tend to think of any divine encounter as being 'mystical', that is how i define/understand the term. And Mary's revelation/impregnation by an angel was clearly a divine encounter, a meeting of 2 levels

Always good to clarify definitions, my friend. From my perspective mystical consciousness has nothing to do with any 'encounters', it's an expansion of individual consciousness; a neurological blowout, so to speak.

but couldnt these ^ be the same thing? (ie a false dichotomy), i disagree that this was "just a message about an upcoming pregnancy and what to name the baby", that is needlessly trivializing the event. This was a divine angelic messenger impregnating Mary with the son of God. The 'metaphysical insight' that Mary gained, was the information that she was the mother of God

But how is this a metaphysical insight, Max? Metaphysical insight is a 'divine psychosis', an awakening to an expanded awareness.

i think the description of the event indicates that this was not based in the ordinary state/level of consciousness, ie glowing white light, divine radiance and the appearance of the prophets

These were all very impressive, I'm sure, but not all hallucination involves an expansion of consciousness.

consider Abraham's experience of the substitute sacrifice of Isaac (one of the foundational events of judaism), it clearly involves an interaction of different levels of willpower, the divine level, the father Abraham's level, and the son Isaac's level. A father is instructed by God to tie up and murder his own son.

Sory, Max, but you've lost me on this one. What does this have to do with mind expansion or alterations of consciousness?

i think underhill's system is unnecessarily convoluted, these multiple stages of transformation are not clearly individuated

I tend to agree. While I think she had genuine mystical experiences, her description of them are oft intertwined with Christian mysticism and Catholicism. I tend to see her final stage -- Unity -- as the first stage of genuine mystical consciousness. Her previous stages just reflect a psychological jihad.

Um, you just implied that you do drugs, frequently.

-- Struck me as a simple pharmacological statement, and what would drug usage imply, in this case?

 

[Sunstone]

Although the words "mystic" and "mystical" have a number of meanings, I tend to restrict my usage of those terms to the sort of experience that comes about when subject/object perception ends while some form of experiencing continues. That sort of experience is often described by people as an experience of oneness or of the One. That experience is by most accounts tremendously transformative.

Anythiing else commonly refered to as "mystical", I think of as "paranormal".

I think it's possible that Jesus had a mystical experience, didn't digest it well, and ended up misguided by it.

I don't think Paul had a mystical experience. Sounds more like he had an epileptic fit or something.

But who really knows?

 

[Caladan]

I think some people want Jesus to be a Mystic, so they paint him as a mystic.
today it seems to be a popular writing method, enter the word 'Mystic' in popular literature and it is sure to get you some readers. the Christian 'Mystics', Jesus as a 'Mystical' figure of the ancient Eastern Mediterranean, even the Sufi 'Mystics'.
to be honest, while most writers of such terminology bring an optimistic view of popular concepts such as oneness and unity, I don't think they are a substitute for academic study of early Christianity. or any other topic for the matter.
it's more of a reassurance for people who want to unify all world views and believe that the core of religion is about universal oneness. which BTW I did not say is either right or wrong.

 

[maxfreakout]

.
it's more of a reassurance for people who want to unify all world views and believe that the core of religion is about universal oneness. which BTW I did not say is either right or wrong.

I think this ^ is the general view of mysticism and esotericism


exoteric religion is divisive, esoteric (mystical) religion is unitive

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

exoteric religion is divisive, esoteric (mystical) religion is unitive

Nonsense.

 

[maxfreakout]

Nonsense.

Do you think that all scholarship is "nonsense"?

read 'The transcendent unity of religions' by the prominent Islamic scholar Frithjof Schuon, his thesis in that book is that religions are united at the esoteric level (as equivalent expressions of divine oneness), and divided at the exoteric level (pseudo-separateness).

 

[Student of X]

One bizarre experience at the age of five or six of being physically attacked by the 'spirit ('?) of my brother sleeping nearby. Nothing mystical about it, though.

Thanks for sharing. Mystical or not, experiences like yours can find a home in most or all religions and mystical traditions. Would you agree?

Good point, Student. I'm speaking from neurological and Eastern mystical perspectives, but I'm finding the Christian "mystical" viewpoints very interesting.

Given the universal nature of mystical experiences, I would be surprised and concerned if you weren't finding them interesting.

Always good to clarify definitions, my friend. From my perspective mystical consciousness has nothing to do with any 'encounters', it's an expansion of individual consciousness; a neurological blowout, so to speak.

From my perspective, mystical consciousness does have something to do with encounters. You are encountering the Divine. Whether the Divine takes on a symbolic, mythological, local form or remains formless is irrelevant.

Form or lack thereof is secondary, but you my friend seem to be making it primary.

 

[Valjean]

Perhaps the difference is between encountering the Divine and becoming the Divine.

 

[Student of X]

Perhaps the difference is between encountering the Divine and becoming the Divine.

Yes, the ultimate goal of mysticism is unity with the Divine, as Jesus demonstrated. That is what separates the mystic from the sorcerer.

When you climb a ladder, the goal is to reach the top. Do you then turn and heap contempt on the lower rungs?

 

[Valjean]

The lower rungs are beneath me...

 

[Student of X]

No they are a part of you. Just as the lower chakras are. Even after your higher ones have been activated.

 

[doppelganger]

Although the words "mystic" and "mystical" have a number of meanings, I tend to restrict my usage of those terms to the sort of experience that comes about when subject/object perception ends while some form of experiencing continues. That sort of experience is often described by people as an experience of oneness or of the One. That experience is by most accounts tremendously transformative.

Anythiing else commonly refered to as "mystical", I think of as "paranormal".

I agree. I distinguish between unexplained experiences to which someone wants to attach paranormal and superstitious explanations and actual mysticism. The former frequently interferes with the latter. Superstitious thinking is not conducive to carrying mystic experience practically into the world of thought, perception and behavior.