• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Was Jesus a Mystic?

Inthedark

Member
I have read a number of books about the likelihood of the historical Jesus being this or that. John Domonic Crossan in Jesus A Revolutionary Biography describes him as a Jewish sage and cynic, having likely been exposed to Greek Cynicism in a nearby city to Nazereth where Cynics are known to have been. The similarities in his lifestyle and ministry and that of the cynics is striking.

Others (such as Freke and Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries) talk of exposure to mysticism in a variety of forms such as Pythagarians and other Greek (mystic pagan) philosophers whose disciples travelled the ancient Mediteranian region, or Jesus himself being a mystic invention to convey truths.

Was Jesus a Jewish mystic, open and inclusive of other mystic allegories and myths? Mystics were often open to such things with a view to reaching enlightenment or sometimes described "oneness with God".

I'd be interested to hear some views from anyone with some interest in this area.

Cheers.:)
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Jesus was a Jew. Probably closer to the Pharisee sect, as he does seem to share quite a few ideas. He probably was some sort of apocalyptic leader.

A mystic, no.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I am sure he was. I am sure that´s why he had so many problems with people understanding him.

There is a point in the bible when he literaly gets mad at people because they don´t have the faith to heal themselves. He told them hundreds of times "YOUR FAITH has healed you" "ask tyour Father in heaven ANYTHING and he WILL give it to you" and yet people still didn´t have enough faith to ask and have the deep understanding that they would recieve.

For him to have been able to do all taht he did, I really have no doubt of him being a mystic and also because he said that he is one with everyone and one with God.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Inhedark,

Was Jesus a Mystic?
All enlightened people are labelled *mystics*. So Jesus was a mystic too!
mys·tic/ˈmistik/
Noun:A person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who...

Love & rgds
 

Inthedark

Member
I am sure he was. I am sure that´s why he had so many problems with people understanding him.

There is a point in the bible when he literaly gets mad at people because they don´t have the faith to heal themselves. He told them hundreds of times "YOUR FAITH has healed you" "ask tyour Father in heaven ANYTHING and he WILL give it to you" and yet people still didn´t have enough faith to ask and have the deep understanding that they would recieve.

For him to have been able to do all taht he did, I really have no doubt of him being a mystic and also because he said that he is one with everyone and one with God.

For those who have ears to listen...or words like that if I remember rightly. He did get a wee bit frosty on occasion with others not having his understanding didn't he? He could give the practical example of how to behave but conveying the meaning of that which cannot really be expressed in words would take a miracle!

Thanks for your reply Me Myself, and yours zenzero.

Do you think there was pagan influence in his teachings?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
For those who have ears to listen...or words like that if I remember rightly. He did get a wee bit frosty on occasion with others not having his understanding didn't he? He could give the practical example of how to behave but conveying the meaning of that which cannot really be expressed in words would take a miracle!

The sad thing is that he did. He said that those who had seen him had seen the Father. Now everyone thinks he is god but they are not. Even when he clearly said that he is in everyone. He also said that he s the path to God. How do people interpret it? If you don´t say "jesuschrist" before praying, you are going to hell.


Do you think there was pagan influence in his teachings?

I hear buddhist influences. I wonder if he really went to india. For example, I remember a story that really surprised me of Krishna, when he takes a mountain and lifts it with one of his fingers (being him a little boy then) to hide the people of his village from a storm. My jaw dropped because I immidiately thought "If you had faith like the size of a grain of mustard you could tell the mountain to moove and it would move".

Besides that, I´ve heard there was talk before Jesus of buddhist saints walking on water, etc. Other deities, maybe, but I wouldn´t know. I see hinduist/buddhist or more specifically panentheist leanings around him.

I plain see a lot of siddhis
 

Inthedark

Member
There are similarities for sure Me Myself and some of this may come down to the universal truths expressed across all the great religions, I suppose there are going to be striking simiarities here and there. Whether they are direct influences or pure coincidence is hotly debated.

The pagan god-men who died and were resurrected also have striking similarities to the story of Jesus Christ. I can't help wondering if these themes were added to appeal to the Gentiles of the day. Have a read here at some of the pagan beliefs, some of them a couple of thousand years before Jesus was born....

Parallels between the Christian gospels and Pagan mythology

Any thoughts?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I´ve heard about similarities to Mithras which could have been because Mithras copied christianity or the other way around or a little of both.

I´ve heard (and never checked even superficially to be sure) that an egiptian God (I think Osiris... but blah, maybe another one) had a celebration where you ate his body and blood in the form of bread and whine too some gooooooood time before Jesus came in.

It´s hard to know what Jesus consciously mixed, coincidentally happen in his life or was later added on in his story to resemble other pagan gods.

I want to check properly your link some time after xD. To be honest many "similarities" I´ve seen have fallen immidiately after a quick search.

Some even said that Buddha was a "virgin" birth too :rolleyes:
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
He began his career under John the Baptist, so I would guess he was a apocalyptic Essene/Pharisee hybrid. There were probably some sort of mysticism in his beliefs but it would not have been total.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
If you go with either of W.T. Stace's two definitions of "mystic", then perhaps Jesus was a mystic. At least, some of the words attributed to him in the Gospel of Thomas and elsewhere sound pretty mystical. But it seems to me we don't have enough information to draw any firm conclusions here.
 
Last edited:

Student of X

Paradigm Shifter
Jesus was not only a mystic but he was a shaman too. He need not have been part of a mystical order, need not have read mystical books or meditated, in order to reach his potential. It would have all come naturally to him as a shaman, ever since he was a kid. His animal guides, spirit helpers, and of course God would have directly guided his mystical development throughout his life, with or without the support of a mystical community. The awakening of a shaman comes naturally, spontaneously. He probably underwent his shamanic awakening in the womb.

Mystics throughout history have displayed the same patterns of development. Jesus is no exception. The pattern is written on his heart, so he displays the same patterns too. Christian mysticism is an excellent tradition, imo it's the best mystical route in the world.
 
Last edited:

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend S of X,

Christian mysticism is an excellent tradition, imo it's the best mystical route in the world.
Could you explain what the tradition is and how it is comapred to place it on top of the list??

Love & rgds
 

Student of X

Paradigm Shifter
Friend S of X,


Could you explain what the tradition is and how it is comapred to place it on top of the list??

Love & rgds

Sure. Here is an excerpt that I hope explains everything, but if not feel free to ask.

'A good map then, a good mystical philosophy, will leave room for both these ways of interpreting our experience. It will mark the routes by which many different temperaments claim to have found their way to the same end. It will acknowledge both the aspects under which the patria splendida Truth has appeared to its lovers: the aspects which have called forth the theories of emanation and immanence and are enshrined in the Greek and Latin names of God.

Deus, whose root means day, shining, the Transcendent Light; and Theos, whose true meaning is supreme desire or prayer—the Inward Love—do not contradict, but complete each other. They form, when taken together, an almost perfect definition of that Godhead which is the object of the mystic’s desire: the Divine Love which, immanent in the soul spurs on that soul to union with the transcendent and Absolute Light—at once the source, the goal, the life of created things.

The true mystic—the person with a genius for God—hardly needs a map himself. He steers a compass course across the “vast and stormy sea of the divine.” It is characteristic of his intellectual humility, however, that he is commonly willing to use the map of the community in which he finds himself, when it comes to showing other people the route which he has pursued. Sometimes these maps have been adequate. More, they have elucidated the obscure wanderings of the explorer; helped him; given him landmarks; worked out right. Time after time he puts his finger on some spot—some great hill of vision, some city of the soul—and says with conviction, “Here have I been.” At other times the maps have embarrassed him, have refused to fit in with his description.

Then he has tried, as Boehme did and after him Blake, to make new ones. Such maps are often wild in drawing, because good draughtsmanship does not necessarily go with a talent for exploration. Departing from the usual convention, they are hard—sometimes impossible—to understand. As a result, the orthodox have been forced to regard their makers as madmen or heretics: when they were really only practical men struggling to disclose great matters by imperfect means.

Without prejudice to individual beliefs, and without offering an opinion as to the exclusive truth of any one religious system or revelation—for here we are concerned neither with controversy nor with apologetics—we are bound to allow as a historical fact that mysticism, so far, has found its best map in Christianity. Christian philosophy, especially that Neoplatonic theology which, taking up and harmonizing all that was best in the spiritual intuitions of Greece, India, and Egypt, was developed by the great doctors of the early and mediaeval Church, supports and elucidates the revelations of the individual mystic as no other system of thought has been able to do.

We owe to the great fathers of the first five centuries—to Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeus, Gregory of Nyssa and Augustine; above all to Dionysius the Areopagite, the great Christian contemporary of Proclus—the preservation of that mighty system of scaffolding which enabled the Catholic mystics to build up the towers and bulwarks of the City of God. The peculiar virtue of this Christian philosophy, that which marks its superiority to the more coldly self-consistent systems of Greece, is the fact that it re-states the truths of metaphysics in terms of personality: thus offering a third term, a “living mediator” between the Unknowable God, the unconditioned Absolute, and the conditioned self.

This was the priceless gift which the Wise Men received in return for their gold, frankincense, and myrrh. This solves the puzzle which all explorers of the supersensible have sooner or later to face: come si convenne l’imago al cerchio, the reconciliation of Infinite and intimate, both known and felt, but neither understood. Such a third term, such a stepping-stone, was essential if mysticism were ever to attain that active union that fullness of life which is its object, and develop from a blind and egoistic rapture into fruitful and self-forgetting love.'

http://www.christianmystics.com/Ebooks/Mysticism_Study_Nature_Development/mysticism.pdf
 
Last edited:

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
I have no opinion on what Jesus was or wasn't. But the author(s) of the Gospel known as "John" probably was what I consider a mystic. Several of the teachings in the Synoptics appear to have come from the pen of someone who was a mystic. And I think Paul was a mystic, as well, though frequently a sloppy one.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I'm not sure I'd call Paul a mystic, he did seem to have some mystical leanings, but at other times, not so much. But yeah, the Gospel of John, if Jesus really did teach that, then I'd have to say he's a mystic. The Gospel of John is a great piece of mystical literature.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Christian mysticism is an excellent tradition, imo it's the best mystical route in the world.
I disagree with that as a global statement. The "best" route varies from person to person and ultimately must be personal if that person is actually taking a trip into the mystic. The "routes" that others have taken are, at best, very general pointers.

Aside from that, as a pointer, it is easily polluted with all sorts of psychological and emotional baggage. I agree with Joseph Campbell that the most reliable way to a direct experience of the divine is to get away from the myths and symbols of one's own culture and learn how to surf the mystic through symbols and myths you did not grow up with. Then come back and use the ones of your own culture once you have developed a methodology for making myth personally meaningful and powerful.

From Campbell's interviews with Bill Moyers:

Read the myths. They teach you that you can turn inward, and you begin to get the message of the symbols. Read other people's myths, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts - but if you read the other ones, you begin to get the message. Myth helps you to put your mind in touch with this experience of being alive. It tells you what it is. It's the reunion of the separated duad. Originally you were one. You are now two in the world , but the recognition of the spiritual identity is what marriage is. It's different from a love affair. It has nothing to do with that. It is another mythological plane of experience.
 

Student of X

Paradigm Shifter
doppelgänger;2834802 said:
Aside from that, as a pointer, it is easily polluted with all sorts of psychological and emotional baggage. I agree with Joseph Campbell that the most reliable way to a direct experience of the divine is to get away from the myths and symbols of one's own culture and learn how to surf the mystic through symbols and myths you did not grow up with. Then come back and use the ones of your own culture once you have developed a methodology for making myth personally meaningful and powerful

Yup I agree. I've been reading Campbell for years. I've gotten away and learned how to surf and now I've come back to the myths and symbols of my own culture. I've undergone my own Hero Journey. It has taken many years and many tribulations.

In my opinion it's easier for an American Christian to get away, learn to surf, and return to a larger Christian understanding than it would be for other people of other faiths because of easily available guides like Campbell, Huston, Eliade, Armstrong, etc. For example a Muslim on the other side of the world wouldn't have such easy access to important guiding scholarship, and wouldn't be able get away from the myths and symbols of his own culture as easily as an American could.
 
Last edited:

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
For example a Muslim on the other side of the world wouldn't have such easy access to important guiding scholarship, and wouldn't be able get away from the myths and symbols of his own culture as easily as an American could.
They do though. They aren't as familiar to us is all. The Sufi writings are a main source of this sort of mystic avenue for Muslims, and useful to you and I as well.

Ever read "Conference of the Birds"?
 
Top