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Was Jesus A Narcissist?

Quantrill

Active Member
As I pointed out in Matthew 15:21-28 he shows a pronounced lack of empathy. That's just one of many references in which he does.

Jesus Christ knew who He was. The Son of God, and worthy of our worship. It is not wrong or narcissm to worship One Who is worthy of that worship.

As to Matt. 15:21-28, Jesus first came presenting Himself to the Jews as their King and Messiah. The works He did proved His claim. The woman in these passages was a Gentile. The offer was not to her, but to Israel. Yet she recognized this, and Jesus healed her situation because of her faith and acceptance of her position.

Quantrill
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
You could just look up Matthew 15:21-28 and read it for yourself which is what I want people to do.

I don't think that is the best verse to support your cause. Mainly because even though Jesus is not initially showing empathy to this lady (actually he is showing more than his disciples), he eventually did.

We also have to consider why him, as well as all of his disciples, seemed to have a problem with this woman. It was because she was an "other." And generally, people have a tendency to be opposed to the "other." This was something that was deeply ingrained in his culture. The fact that he was able to get over it (while his disciples didn't want to), shows something about his character, and that he is able to change who he has empathy to. He shows a 180 here.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Already have, that's not the point: if you want to use a verse or passage to make or illustrate a point in a debate, thing to do is to show that passage, explain the significance of that passage and how it relates to your point in your own words, and give people a chance to address the conclusions you present in relation to all that.

That's if you really wanted to get into a debate about any of this in the first place. If all you wanted to do was give JC a good finger-wagging, well, we don't have a Finger-Wagging forum here.

And so, having read that passage what is your opinion?
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I don't think that is the best verse to support your cause. Mainly because even though Jesus is not initially showing empathy to this lady (actually he is showing more than his disciples), he eventually did.

We also have to consider why him, as well as all of his disciples, seemed to have a problem with this woman. It was because she was an "other." And generally, people have a tendency to be opposed to the "other." This was something that was deeply ingrained in his culture. The fact that he was able to get over it (while his disciples didn't want to), shows something about his character, and that he is able to change who he has empathy to. He shows a 180 here.

It's just the way he did it, He doesn't recognize her need has legitimate until she acknowledges his superiority and her inferiority. He constantly does that in many incidents.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
And so, having read that passage what is your opinion?

You're just going to ignore everything I just said, aren't you. :)

OK, I've got some free time tonight, might as well spend some of it pretending I believe you actually want to have a genuine debate about all this.

One possible interpretation of that passage: Jesus knew from the beginning of the scene that he was going to heal the woman's child, but he decided to use the instance to teach his followers something.

He starts out by reacting to the woman's plea in accordance with what was probably a commonly held prejudice among the Jewish people of his time and place. This doesn't put her off. All it does is cause her to humble herself still further.

(one possible) moral: the state of a person's mind is more important than the State they were born in. Attitude is more important than ethnicity.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
It's just the way he did it, He doesn't recognize her need has legitimate until she acknowledges his superiority and her inferiority. He constantly does that in many incidents.

I agree that one could make such an argument. In fact, I believe there is a verse in Mark in which Jesus gets angry when a leper asks him to heal him.

This one though, it is more of a cultural reaction. Jesus show's no empathy because she is an "other." And in a historical context, it really isn't surprising, as all reject her (however, Jesus is a little bit nicer about it at first, he just stays silent, while others are telling him to send her away).
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
It's just the way he did it, He doesn't recognize her need has legitimate until she acknowledges his superiority and her inferiority. He constantly does that in many incidents.

Not his own superiority. The perceived superiority of his people: "He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”'
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I agree that one could make such an argument. In fact, I believe there is a verse in Mark in which Jesus gets angry when a leper asks him to heal him.

This one though, it is more of a cultural reaction. Jesus show's no empathy because she is an "other." And in a historical context, it really isn't surprising, as all reject her (however, Jesus is a little bit nicer about it at first, he just stays silent, while others are telling him to send her away).

He could have told the disciples to shut up and show compassion but he didn't. You're right though, it wasn't the best reference to show Jesus' lack of empathy. I will move on to his views of family and his family values.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I agree that one could make such an argument. In fact, I believe there is a verse in Mark in which Jesus gets angry when a leper asks him to heal him.

This one though, it is more of a cultural reaction. Jesus show's no empathy because she is an "other." And in a historical context, it really isn't surprising, as all reject her (however, Jesus is a little bit nicer about it at first, he just stays silent, while others are telling him to send her away).

I remember that one too, can you give me the Mark passage?
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
He could have told the disciples to shut up and show compassion but he didn't.

Telling people to be compassionate doesn't usually have much of an effect other than to elicit an appropriate but empty gesture or two.

Showing people what self-importance and the cold-heartedness that often results from it looks like is a much more powerful lesson. He was a teacher, after all.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Telling people to be compassionate doesn't usually have much of an effect other than to elicit an appropriate but empty gesture or two.

Showing people what self-importance and the cold-heartedness that often results from it looks like is a much more powerful lesson. He was a teacher, after all.

I am not saying he wasn't a teacher who wanted to show people a different way of doing or thinking. He was a genius, but still he was a narcissist and a cult leader but being a genius still does not excuse his narcissism.

Look at Buddha, a very smart man, but this very smart man was a misogynist. So genius doesn't mean that they weren't without flaws.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not saying he wasn't a teacher who wanted to show people a different way of doing or thinking. He was a genius, but still he was a narcissist and a cult leader but being a genius still does not excuse his narcissism.

Never mind. I've never learned how to counter the ''just cuz" stratagem.

All I have are explanations and demonstrations to illustrate them. What's all that compared to evasiveness and pointless repetition?

Look at Buddha, a very smart man, but this very smart man was a misogynist. So genius doesn't mean that they weren't without flaws.

And the fact that gravity effects matter doesn't necessarily mean that green cheese tastes better than diet pepsi. what's your point?
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Never mind. I've never learned how to counter the ''just cuz" stratagem.

All I have are explanations and demonstrations to illustrate them. What's all that compared to evasiveness and pointless repetition?



And the fact that gravity effects matter doesn't necessarily mean that green cheese tastes better than diet pepsi. what's your point?

Maybe when I can finish debating the historicity of Jesus and whether Q is or isn't a valid document and other such contentions I could just move on and show people what I am getting at
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe when I can finish debating the historicity of Jesus and whether Q is or isn't a valid document and other such contentions I could just move on and show people what I am getting at

That would be nice. Taking a second here and there to try and determine what other people are getting at wouldn't hurt either.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
That would be nice. Taking a second here and there to try and determine what other people are getting at wouldn't hurt either.

And I am trying to do that also, especially for my fellow Christians, I want to address thier objections and the objections of others excepting the Jesus Myth conspiracy theorist who are getting on my nerves
 
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Me Myself

Back to my username
I am not interested in disproving whether he was the son of God or not. It doesn't matter. I wish to prove that he exhibited all nine narcissistic traits.

And if he was the son of God we could excuse his grandiosity, but if he were , why would exhibit all nine traits? You can't excuse all nine

He was emphatic. There was some tough love going in there too though, but that doesn´t mean he didn´t feel their pain as along as he was doing what he did for their best interest (going to heaven? :D )

He probably had enough emphaty for them to not wanting them to go to hell? :shrug:
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
As for Jesus lack of empathy I would like everyone to turn their Bibles to Matthew 15:21-28

I am not saying he wasn't a teacher who wanted to show people a different way of doing or thinking. He was a genius, but still he was a narcissist and a cult leader but being a genius still does not excuse his narcissism.
It is my opinion that Jesus show a profound lack of empathy in this incident. He withholds what this woman needs until he extracts what he wants from her. He wants her to validate his superiority over her and fulfill his narcissistic supply.
Total narcissistic move on Jesus' part

I disagree that this has anything to do with narcissism. I do agree that he does not express empathy, but he does help her.

She asks him to "have pity" on her. He seems to refuse to view her with pity.

Whether you interpret a "demon" to be an actual entity, or a big problem with an unknown cause, coming from somewhere else -- the very concept of a demon causing trouble puts the person in a role of victim -- something bad, coming from somewhere else.

He does appear to withhold help at first, but only until she asserts that she deserves what she is asking for. At that point she seems to be abandoning the victim role and providing a reason as to why he ought to help her. As soon as she provides the argument that she is worthy (even just a little bit) of what she is asking for, the daughter get better immediately. The story does not actually say that Jesus did anything.

She sees his help as valuable, and she is very open to receive it.

He does not refer to himself when he answers her insistence that she ought to get something from him (Matthew 15:28) "Jesus then said in reply, 'Woman you have great faith! Your wish will come to pass.' That very moment her daugther got better."

He refers to her faith.

(I think that he is acknowledging that there is a connection between the person and their condition, not as blame, but a connection that can be affected by exercising faith, or assuming the ability to participate -- to respond, response-ability. Instead of merely leaving her with a perception of victimhood and him coming in to "save the day" he left her with some understanding that she may be able to use in the future.)

She is talking about scraps. Yet, he calls her faith "great." It looks like faith does not have to be present in massive amounts, just genuine in nature.

Additionally, I see this story as building upon a previous instruction by Jesus in a story that you had also pointed out. But we did not look at the end of that story. I am referring to Matthew 12:43-45.

After referring to Jonah, Jesus cautions against jumping in and evicting an "unclean spirit" because it will roam in search of a place to rest, and finding none will return to where it began, but "with seven spirits more evil than itself."

I see this as a very practical instruction about cause and effect. What you send "out there" IS going to come back around, only bigger and better or bigger and worse -- depending upon the nature of what you send "out there."

In that story, he had already shown his disciples that they should not be, what we may call today "enablers." Basically, you can cause more harm than good by simply saving people from the results of their actions, if you do not also help them to understand their own connection to the cause of the matter. If a "demon" returns to find a dwelling unoccupied, it looks like the situation that created an opening for the problem has not been resolved and replaced with a better understanding -- one that would have no room for that problem.

I think this is practical and useful information, even if not soft and squishy and "feel good."
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
The "symptoms" of Narcissism as posted by the OP, doesn't seem like a disorder. Just regular humans being snobby.

Or is it just alot of people are Narcissist?
 
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