Was Jesus A Narcissist?

[apophenia]

Actually I hit on 1 and 7 and got sidetracked with splitting

Believe me I have no desire to save people or do any sort of messiahing. In fact just the opposite

The Greeks had alot to say about hubris. Believe me, Jesus fits that bill

I see what you mean.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I see what you mean.

Are you accusing moi of splitting? That I am projecting my own narcissistic tendencies unto Jesus?

 

[apophenia]

Are you accusing moi of splitting? That I am projecting my own narcissistic tendencies unto Jesus?

C'mon ... you walked right into it ... with two 'believe me"s on the same page where you introduced splitting.

I hope you can see the humour in that. I can.

Or I guess I could answer you with "the lady protesteth too much". LOL

 

[blackout]

Truly, truly I say to you....

 

[YmirGF]

Or I guess I could answer you with "the lady protesteth too much". LOL

Indeed. I am well aware of the attributes of a narcissistic personality and I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the idea that this potentially mythical figure was a narcissist.
I tend to agree that this is an exercise in projection.

 

[4consideration]

While I disagree with your conclusions about Jesus, it seems that you have, perhaps inadventently, demonstrated a limitation of pyschoanalysis as being only applicable to issues involving the ego.

If you will refer to the portion below highlighted in red, it occurs to me that it makes no sense to require that which is unreal to be present as part of a determination of psychological health or balance, as it seems to be requiring some measure of disorder to exist in every person. I do recognize that ego is a recognized and noticeable occurrence. But, I do not see that it is necessary for a person to be who he is, as in required to for him exist and be healthy. Many teachers in spiritual matters have pointed to the illusionary (even if we call it ideal) nature of defining ourselves in terms of mental concepts, or false identities that do not exist in reality unless we make them up for ourselves.

If Jesus was actually the embodiment of Truth, he would have no ego -- because the ego is a false self (ideal self, at times perhaps -- but I would submit not always "ideal," as the ego often presents negative illusions of self, like unworthiness or inferiority.)


Splitting
Main article: Splitting (psychology)

People who are diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder use splitting as a central defense mechanism. According to psychoanalyst Kernberg, “the normal tension between actual self on the one hand, and ideal self and ideal object on the other, is eliminated by the building up of an inflated self concept within which the actual self and the ideal self and ideal object are confused. At the same time, the remnants of the unacceptable images are repressed and projected onto external objects, which are devalued.”[14] The merging of the "inflated self concept" and the "actual self" is seen in the inherent grandiosity of narcissistic personality disorder. Also inherent in this process are the defense mechanisms of devaluation, idealization and denial.[15] Other people are either manipulated as an extension of one's own self, who serve the sole role of giving "admiration and approval"[16] or they are seen as worthless (because they are unable to collude with the narcissist's grandiosity).[17]

Perhaps many people need to strike a balance between what is real and what is an illusion created about the self by the mind. However, I do not see evidence that Jesus did that. Actually, I think that Jesus often presented his messages in the form of teaching what his followers could actually do (with the proper understanding) rather than, "Tah Dah, look what I can do."
​

 

[CynthiaCypher]

C'mon ... you walked right into it ... with two 'believe me"s on the same page where you introduced splitting.

I hope you can see the humour in that. I can.

Or I guess I could answer you with "the lady protesteth too much". LOL

I can see it. But this thread is not about Cindy's narcissism but Jesus'. Cindy is so humble and altruistic that she can even laugh at herself

 

[ChristineES]

Jesus couldn't have been a narcissist. After all, according the Gospels- he healed people, taught people, fed people, had compassion, etc. I can't compare Jesus to Jim Jones or to Charles Manson and I won't even try.

Edit: I guess I should point out that I once watch a show on one of the Discovery channels about narcissists and Manson and Jim Jones were both featured on that show.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

While I disagree with your conclusions about Jesus, it seems that you have, perhaps inadventently, demonstrated a limitation of pyschoanalysis as being only applicable to issues involving the ego.

If you will refer to the portion below highlighted in red, it occurs to me that it makes no sense to require that which is unreal to be present as part of a determination of psychological health or balance, as it seems to be requiring some measure of disorder to exist in every person. I do recognize that ego is a recognized and noticeable occurrence. But, I do not see that it is necessary for a person to be who he is, as in required to for him exist and be healthy. Many teachers in spiritual matters have pointed to the illusionary (even if we call it ideal) nature of defining ourselves in terms of mental concepts, or false identities that do not exist in reality unless we make them up for ourselves.

If Jesus was actually the embodiment of Truth, he would have no ego -- because the ego is a false self (ideal self, at times perhaps -- but I would submit not always "ideal," as the ego often presents negative illusions of self, like unworthiness or inferiority.)


Splitting
Main article: Splitting (psychology)

People who are diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder use splitting as a central defense mechanism. According to psychoanalyst Kernberg, “the normal tension between actual self on the one hand, and ideal self and ideal object on the other, is eliminated by the building up of an inflated self concept within which the actual self and the ideal self and ideal object are confused. At the same time, the remnants of the unacceptable images are repressed and projected onto external objects, which are devalued.”[14] The merging of the "inflated self concept" and the "actual self" is seen in the inherent grandiosity of narcissistic personality disorder. Also inherent in this process are the defense mechanisms of devaluation, idealization and denial.[15] Other people are either manipulated as an extension of one's own self, who serve the sole role of giving "admiration and approval"[16] or they are seen as worthless (because they are unable to collude with the narcissist's grandiosity).[17]

Perhaps many people need to strike a balance between what is real and what is an illusion created about the self by the mind. However, I do not see evidence that Jesus did that. Actually, I think that Jesus often presented his messages in the form of teaching what his followers could actually do (with the proper understanding) rather than, "Tah Dah, look what I can do."
​

He made grandiose statements about himself, in his mind he not only believed himself to be the messenger of a divine being, but hinted he was a divine being himself. How delusional is that?

He didn't teach his followers what they could actually do, he fed them a false image of reality. He told them that they would be able to do anything if they just believed in him, he fed them the delusion that somehow they would replace the ruling powers and become the ruling powers themselves.

There is nothing that Jesus teaches them that has any bearing in reality, just like any other cult leader he sways his followers with lies and deceptions. And some pretty big lies at that.

Everyone has to remember that this man was a cult leader and used the same tactics that cult leaders then and now use

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Jesus couldn't have been a narcissist. After all, according the Gospels- he healed people, taught people, fed people, had compassion, etc. I can't compare Jesus to Jim Jones or to Charles Manson and I won't even try.

Edit: I guess I should point out that I once watch a show on one of the Discovery channels about narcissists and Manson and Jim Jones were both featured on that show.

Jim Jones and David Koresh fed people, taught people and showed love and compassion to their followers at times. A narcissist often uses compassion and altruism as a means of control, just look a the Canaanite woman incident in Matthew

 

[ChristineES]

He made grandiose statements about himself, in his mind he not only believed himself to be the messenger of a divine being, but hinted he was a divine being himself. How delusional is that?

He didn't teach his followers what they could actually do, he fed them a false image of reality. He told them that they would be able to do anything if they just believed in him, he fed them the delusion that somehow they would replace the ruling powers and become the ruling powers themselves.

There is nothing that Jesus teaches them that has any bearing in reality, just like any other cult leader he sways his followers with lies and deceptions. And some pretty big lies at that.

Everyone has to remember that this man was a cult leader and used the same tactics that cult leaders then and now use

Although I don't know if you really believe that Jesus was a narcissist or you are just making a debate, I am finished with this debate. Jesus didn't teach anything that was outside the Jewish faith, the way I see it.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Although I don't know if you really believe that Jesus was a narcissist or you are just making a debate, I am finished with this debate. Jesus didn't teach anything that was outside the Jewish faith, the way I see it.

If he taught that he was indeed divine then he did teach something that is way beyond the pale of the Jewish faith

 

[InChrist]

He made grandiose statements about himself, in his mind he not only believed himself to be the messenger of a divine being, but hinted he was a divine being himself. How delusional is that?

If Jesus was a mere human then you are correct, the statements He made were grandiose and delusional. But If He was God then His statements were expressed with much reservation and humility.

 

[idav]

If Jesus was a mere human then you are correct, the statements He made were grandiose and delusional. But If He was God then His statements were expressed with much reservation and humility.

No way. Bible God is one of the biggest narcissist I know of. Why would god think he is all that anyway?

Jesus is less narcissistic if he doesn't believe himself to literally be god. Humbleness is in realizing the power comes from the father and not of jesus own accord.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

If Jesus was a mere human then you are correct, the statements He made were grandiose and delusional. But If He was God then His statements were expressed with much reservation and humility.

And I agree with you. If he truly was the Son of God then there is no grandiose statements made but if his claims weren't true then he was just another narcissistic cult leader.

I will show that Jesus shows all criteria has a narcissist and not only that but the tactics he used in his ministry are the same used by other cult leaders such as Gautama Buddha and many more. It's up to you guys to prove me wrong

 

[YmirGF]

And I agree with you. If he truly was the Son of God then there is no grandiose statements made but if his claims weren't true then he was just another narcissistic cult leader.

Now, if only reality was so clearly black or white. No other options?

I will show that Jesus shows all criteria has a narcissist and not only that but the tactics he used in his ministry are the same used by other cult leaders such as Gautama Buddha and many more. It's up to you guys to prove me wrong

This should be a walk in the park. So, let me get this straight, you are going to somehow show that a potentially mythical person was a narcissist? Oddly, I don't think I have ever heard someone refer to Buddha as a "cult leader". That is rich. :cover:

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Now, if only reality was so clearly black or white. No other options?

This should be a walk in the park. So, let me get this straight, you are going to somehow show that a potentially mythical person was a narcissist? Oddly, I don't think I have ever heard someone refer to Buddha as a "cult leader". That is rich. :cover:

Of course Jesus, Mohammed and Gautama Buddha were cult leaders. What else could they be?

 

[YmirGF]

Of course Jesus, Mohammed and Gautama Buddha were cult leaders. What else could they be?

Well, that is certainly a penetrating analysis. Your exposition ought to be a real piece of work. You have actually studied psychology, right?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Well, that is certainly a penetrating analysis. Your exposition ought to be a real piece of work. You have actually studied psychology, right?

A little. Freud is my hero.

 

[YmirGF]

A little. Freud is my hero.

You're not serious? Uncle Sigmund? Oh... this ought to be rich...
What are your thoughts on that monstrosity sometimes referred to as Anna Freud?