One of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is that Jesus had died and allowed for the shedding of his blood for the sake of granting forgiveness to people. In other words Jesus had died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified or that he was crucified!
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Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
- Thread starter sesame
- Start date
GO WITH ME IN THAT STORY PLZ AND EXPLAIN IT:-
If there is a father has 10 sons, all of them don't obey him but one who obey him completley then the father want to forgive those 9 disobeying sons, so he decide to kill and torture the only obeying one !!!!!.........
WHAT IS UR OPINION IN THAT FATHER? ALSO WHAT ABOUT THE DEED, IS IT LOGIC?!!!!.....
If there is a father has 10 sons, all of them don't obey him but one who obey him completley then the father want to forgive those 9 disobeying sons, so he decide to kill and torture the only obeying one !!!!!.........
WHAT IS UR OPINION IN THAT FATHER? ALSO WHAT ABOUT THE DEED, IS IT LOGIC?!!!!.....
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
That's not quite a "fundamental belief of Xy." Not all Xians buy into substitutionary atonement.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Here is my understanding, briefly. God promised Abraham that through his seed (singular) all nations would be blessed. Abraham begat Isaac who begat Jacob who begat twelve sons from whom we get the twelve tribes of Israel, the Jewish people. The Jewish people were promised a Messiah but blindness in part came on them because of disobedience and so that salvation could come to all nations, the gentiles. Christ came as Messiah and told them the Kingdom of God had come to them, but they rejected (not permanently) him and crucified him. He was a rock of offense or stumblingstone to them for a time so that salvation could come to the gentiles. He is a stone that will crush all rulers and he will rule and reign forever when he comes again.
The Jews were not blind because they rejected Jesus, they rejected him because they were blind. God knew they would be disobedient as we all are and it was all part of his great plan to bring salvation to all of us. But we must remember, our Saviour came from the Chosen People, the Jewish people and God loves them and is not finished with them by any means. So, Jesus did come as Messiah, but was crucified, but he knew that would happen. He was sent to be Messiah, but knew he would be crucified, so its really both, he was sent to be crucified and he was crucified, for you and me. Its all part of God's great plan to freely save all who call upon him. That is just my understanding.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
I don't think He- PBUH- to be crucified in that disgraceful manner for a crime that He didn't perpetrate while He's the son of God as christians believe-but not Muslims-. Simply, God would forgive all people if they admit they were wrong and show penitence without effusing His son's blood in this revoltiong manner-even some people say that he was crucified naked-. Muslims believe that He is a great Prophet but not the son of God, He-PBUH-a great human but not more than this.
That's what the Qura'n says regarding Jesus:
003.033 God did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
003.034 Offspring, one of the other: And God heareth and knoweth all things.
003.035 Behold! a woman of 'Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things."
003.036 When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and God knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."
003.037 Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From God: for God Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."
003.038 There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!
003.039 While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "God doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from God, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous."
003.040 He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren?" "Thus," was the answer, "Doth God accomplish what He willeth."
003.041 He said: "O my Lord! Give me a Sign!" "Thy Sign," was the answer, "Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three days but with signals. Then celebrate the praises of thy Lord again and again, and glorify Him in the evening and in the morning."
003.042 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
003.043 "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
003.044 This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger!) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
003.045 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
003.046 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
003.047 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
003.048 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
003.049 "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
003.050 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
003.051 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
003.052 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
003.053 "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
003.054 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God.
003.055 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
003.056 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
003.057 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."
003.058 "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."
003.059 The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
003.060 The Truth (comes) from God alone; so be not of those who doubt.
The Holy Quran - English Translation -Islam: The Eternal Path to Jannah
That's what the Qura'n says regarding Jesus:
003.033 God did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
003.034 Offspring, one of the other: And God heareth and knoweth all things.
003.035 Behold! a woman of 'Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things."
003.036 When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and God knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."
003.037 Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From God: for God Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."
003.038 There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!
003.039 While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "God doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from God, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous."
003.040 He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren?" "Thus," was the answer, "Doth God accomplish what He willeth."
003.041 He said: "O my Lord! Give me a Sign!" "Thy Sign," was the answer, "Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three days but with signals. Then celebrate the praises of thy Lord again and again, and glorify Him in the evening and in the morning."
003.042 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
003.043 "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
003.044 This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger!) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
003.045 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
003.046 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
003.047 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
003.048 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
003.049 "And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
003.050 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
003.051 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
003.052 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
003.053 "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
003.054 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God.
003.055 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
003.056 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
003.057 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."
003.058 "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."
003.059 The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
003.060 The Truth (comes) from God alone; so be not of those who doubt.
The Holy Quran - English Translation -Islam: The Eternal Path to Jannah
tarekabdo12
Active Member
You can also see in Surat Mariam( Mary ) what the Qura'n says regarding Jesus:
019.016 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
019.017 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
019.018 She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
019.019 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
019.020 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
019.021 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
019.022 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
019.023 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
019.024 But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
019.025 "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
019.026 "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
019.027 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
019.028 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
019.029 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
019.030 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
019.031 "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
019.032 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
019.033 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
019.034 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
019.035 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
019.036 Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
019.037 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!
http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/quran19.html
God compares Jesus to Adam who was created without a father or a mother and to Yahiah, the son of Zakaria who was born to a barren old woman.
019.016 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
019.017 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
019.018 She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."
019.019 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
019.020 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
019.021 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
019.022 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
019.023 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
019.024 But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
019.025 "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
019.026 "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
019.027 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
019.028 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
019.029 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
019.030 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
019.031 "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
019.032 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
019.033 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
019.034 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
019.035 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
019.036 Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
019.037 But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!
http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/quran19.html
God compares Jesus to Adam who was created without a father or a mother and to Yahiah, the son of Zakaria who was born to a barren old woman.
no-body
Well-Known Member
My favorite interpretation is the schizophrenic one where Jesus did not have to be crucified because of free will but humanity (or more often, the jews) did it anyway because it was prophesied but somehow it could have been avoided and they still get the blame but God gets all the credit.
Skwim
Veteran Member
God being omniscient and all knew full well what would become of the son he sired. So, yes, the crucification would have been part of the plan.
javajo
Well-Known Member
I believe we all have sinned. The penalty of sin is death. Jesus paid the penalty, he died. Hebrews 9:22 says that without the spilling of blood no one can be forgiven. If one believes the Old Testament is God's Word, Isaiah 53 seems to foretell and describe in great detail Christ's death and why he died:
4 He suffered the things we should have suffered.
He took on himself the pain that should have been ours.
But we thought God was punishing him.
We thought God was wounding him and making him suffer.
5 But the servant was pierced because we had sinned.
He was crushed because we had done what was evil.
He was punished to make us whole again.
His wounds have healed us.
6 All of us are like sheep. We have wandered away from God.
All of us have turned to our own way.
And the Lord has placed on his servant
the sins of all of us.
7 He was beaten down and made to suffer.
But he didn't open his mouth.
He was led away like a sheep to be killed.
Lambs are silent while their wool is being cut off.
In the same way, he didn't open his mouth.
8 He was arrested and sentenced to death.
Then he was taken away.
He was cut off from this life.
He was punished for the sins of my people.
Who among those who were living at that time
could have understood those things?
9 He was given a grave with those who were evil.
But his body was buried in the tomb of a rich man.
He was killed even though he hadn't harmed anyone.
And he had never lied to anyone.
10 The Lord says, "It was my plan to crush him
and cause him to suffer.
I made his life a guilt offering to pay for sin.
But he will see all of his children after him.
In fact, he will continue to live.
My plan will be brought about through him.
11 After he suffers, he will see the light that leads to life.
And he will be satisfied.
My godly servant will make many people godly
because of what he will accomplish.
He will be punished for their sins.
12 So I will give him a place of honor among those who are great.
He will be rewarded just like others who win the battle.
That is because he was willing to give his life as a sacrifice.
He was counted among those who had committed crimes.
He took the sins of many people on himself.
And he gave his life for those who had done what is wrong."
Death, yes. Crucifixion on a cross? No.
"More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:8-11)
"More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:8-11)
javajo
Well-Known Member
My Bible reads different: "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
no-body
Well-Known Member
Do you really believe that the instrument Jesus died on matters? Do you guys go around wearing little stake pendants?
Tellurian
Active Member
In first century Palestine a guy was executed. His opponents asked his followers about why that man's alleged abba did not save him, if he was actually a "son of god". The only excuse his followers could come up with was that it was supposed to happen that way. Then his followers went about creating a fictional story about how their executed leader had supposedly fulfilled the Isaiah 53 story. This exaggeration turned the executed man into a fictional character and a supposed role model for others.
When asked why his alleged father/god would want to have his alleged son executed, they could only come up with the explanation that his death caused everyone's sins to be removed. How that was supposed to happen, or why a death was required for it to happen, or why the Jewish god created that death requirement, or why his followers were expected to repeatedly carry out a cannibalization ritual has never been explained as far as I know.
When asked why his alleged father/god would want to have his alleged son executed, they could only come up with the explanation that his death caused everyone's sins to be removed. How that was supposed to happen, or why a death was required for it to happen, or why the Jewish god created that death requirement, or why his followers were expected to repeatedly carry out a cannibalization ritual has never been explained as far as I know.
Many Sages One Truth
Active Member
Jesus was not crucified as a sacrifice for sin, he was crucified because his enemies hated him. The atonement belief, that is the idea of Jesus being a sacrifice for sins, is a belief that has constantly evolved throughout Christian history to how it is viewed today. The sacrificial element is already there, seeing as Jesus gave up his life for his mission, and for his friends (his disciples). However, the sacrifice doesn't necessarily extend beyond that. Already in the time of the Apostles though and after we see the idea of invoking Jesus' death as a kind of merit slowly coming out of the mold. The case seems to be that it evolved from that into the modern atonement belief.
javajo
Well-Known Member
The doctrine of the Atonement is not modern, but I believe it is true and I thank God for it. I believe we can trust in Christ to have paid the penalty of sin, which is death, or we can pay the penalty ourselves. Since he already paid it, its a no-brainer for me to accept the free gift. Its brilliant, actually. God is able to be just toward sin and still save us. Amazing. That's my belief.
Nope. Actually, I'd want to completely disassociate myself from the instrument of death which is why I don't get the use of the cross in worship.
Many Sages One Truth
Active Member
Have you ever done any study into Christian history concerning the doctrine of the atonement to see how "modern" it may be?