1robin
Christian/Baptist
The bible's test for prophet hood condemn Muhammad as a false prophet. I believe every single one results in his receiving a F on the prophet test.
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Was Muhammad a good man?
- Thread starter kassault37
- Start date
Tumah
Veteran Member
Sadly, there is no :irony: icon.
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
This is by no means a trick question. How many people express extreme gratitude towards Muhammad? Wouldn't they be Muslims if they did. Hate may be a bad choice of words but uninterest is more satisfying.
Also I do mot recall saying 1/4 as Muslims are less than .25 and that means the other 75% do not care for him.
You can keep calling your comment a trap but it is nust misleading.
Denny Crane!
Member
He was adequate for his time. But necessarily to succeed he was a product of his time and a warlord and all of the other things he was which means his morality can not be our morality for the modern age.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
WOW, hate maybe a bad choice of words but uninterested is more satisfying.
What changed your mind and your previous words of hate and love ?
Wasn't it because of my tricky question which proved my point that you are fixed in your bias attitude.
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loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Really ? Which bible have you been reading ?
First, let's examine what are the signs of a false Prophet according to the Bible and see if Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) fits into that description or not.
1) Matthew 24: 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) certainly does not fit the description of the false prophet given by Jesus(pbuh) here. Why not ? First of all, neither Muslims nor Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ever claimed he was the Christ/Messiah, that title was never given to him in the Quran, the term Christ/Messiah is only given to Jesus(pbuh) in the Quran. Secondly, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) never came in Jesus’ name; Muhammad(pbuh) came in Allah’s(God) name and that's why every chapter in the Qur'an starts with 'IN THE NAME OF Allah(God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful'.
2) Mark 13:21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) certainly does not fit the description of the false prophet given by Jesus(pbuh) here. Why not ? Once again neither Muslims nor Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ever claimed he was the Christ/Messiah. The next description Jesus(pbuh) gives is that the false prophet will perform several great signs and wonders to deceive
people. Even though Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did perform some miracles in his life time, that wasn't his forte unlike some former Prophets such as Moses(pbuh) etc. In fact, the pagans accused Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) of not performing great miracles and signs since he did not go around everyday performing miracles, and doing great wonders. This is what the Dajjal (anti-Christ) will do. So either way, the Prophet Muhammad does not match that description.
3)1 John 4: 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the anti christ, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) certainly does not fit the description of the false prophet given by Jesus(pbuh) here rather he perfectly fits the description of the true prophet. Why ? Note that the person who confesses that Jesus(pbuh) is the Christ, is from God. Those who do not confess that Jesus(pbuh) is the Christ are the anti-Christ. Therefore, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is from God since Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did confess that Jesus(pbuh) is the Christ/Messiah; and he never said that Jesus(pbuh) is NOT the Christ as can be clearly seen from the Holy Qur'an:
"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;" (Al Qur'an 3:45)
So you can clearly see that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) does not in anyway fit the description of the false Prophet stated in the Bible, rather he fits the description of the True prophet of God as stated there in.
Moreover, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) fits into the description of the prophet to come from the prophecies stated in the Bible perfectly. You can read more details in the following sites but I'll just breifly mention them here.
1) In Deuteronomy 18, Moses(pbuh) stated that God told him: “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.” (Deuteronomy 18:18-19).
2) In John 16, Jesus(pbuh) states that “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you."(12-14)
Points to note here are [2]:
Finally, Read Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
It is quite telling as to how Jesus(pbuh) in the Bible states 'ONLY the one who does the will of God will enter the kingdom of heaven' and that 'those who does things in Jesus's(pbuh) name will not enter the kingdom of heaven' and yet you claim that 'salvation is through faith in one man' in Jesus's(pbuh) name. You take Paul's word over Jesus's(pbuh). Who's the real false prophet ? The one who teaches God is human being or the one who teaches God is Not a human being.
What does the Bible say about that ?
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie,not a human being, that he should change his mind.Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? "
All these together cannot make things any clearer than that. Think about it !!!
Peace to you.
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
None needed here. Biblical prophets made accurate prophecies, did not mangle the teachings of Christ, and all descended from the line of prophets God specified emphatically.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
His morality was not even normal for his age. Beheading bound captives until he was exhausted, marrying juveniles, enslaving captives, killing poets who spoke against you, claiming the moon split in half, and raiding caravans on his own authority (not Allah's), etc..... was not run of the mill for any culture.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Judging from the past this will be of no avail but here goes anyway.
Ok then lets start a little further back where Ishmael was given the left handed or second blessing and Isaac was given the right hand or primary blessing. Only Isaac's line was to produce prophets not Ishmael's. Even the Quran says this same thing but since I disregard it then let's take the bibles CONTEMPORARY verses on it:
New International Version
But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."
Moses, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Jesus and all the prophets came from Isaac. God blessed Ishmael (even though he was to be a wild *** of a man and trouble his brothers) but he acted in a covenant relationship only through Isaac.
The testimony of the Quran is that it is in entire agreement with the Taurat in that the children of Israel are exalted above the rest of mankind by God and that He raised amongst this race prophets and messengers. It testifies that through the race of Israel the world would be blessed in the culmination of the the Messiah, the Word of God
And We gave him Isaac and Jacob; and We placed among his descendants the gift of prophecy and the Scriptures;
and We gave him his reward in this world, and in that to come he shall be one of the righteous. (Al Ankabut 29:25)
Message for Muslims: Ishmael not in prophetic line
So from both your texts and mine the debate is over. Muhammad claimed lineage through Ishmael and that line had no prophets as God emphatically stated. However I will humor you and answer you next points anyway.
This is NOT why I said Muhammad was a false prophet.
I did NOT use any of the above in my accusations.
This has nothing to do with anything I claimed.
I did not say Muhammad was THE false prophet. I said he was A false prophet. His miracles are trivial and at times laughable. His attempt at prophecy is so lacking that Islam is many times called a non-prophet organization in the west. However you bring up a few examples and we can discuss them. I also did NOT call him the antichrist, though Islam is a front runner for the anti-Christ system.
Let me add the parallel verse that makes this more meaningful.
New International Version
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.
Christ being Greek for Messiah or savior is what Muhammad most certainly denied. Another verse is that anyone who denies that I am he (savior) is a false prophet.
Continued below:
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Yeah:
1. He was not in the line of prophets.
2. Was not in the line of the covenant.
3. Denied Christ's own proclaimed significance and relevance.
4. Made no prophecies worthy of the name.
5. And made at best trivial attempts at miracles (refusing to even try when requested at times)
Yeah: certainly an obvious prophet.
I am aware that Muhammad, because of his being taught the bible by his uncle thought Christ a messanger. The problem is that he did not think him the savior he claimed to be.
Here is one of YOUR commentators on that surah: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. Pickthall
Messengers had come and gone. There was only one Christ the messiah. The definition of being a king/ anointed/ and savior. Muhammad believed neither of the three.
No he did not, see the above.
That can cover many people with most of the scholars selecting Jesus. In fact almost every single one.
This is the third worst argument in Islamic history. The Holly Spirit showed up 500 years before Muhammad. He also performed acts in the OT for goodness sake. This is pure desperation and if I was a Muslim I would never ever mention it.
That has no relevance but it is a commentary on the dark sides having power. People that speak to the dead or claim to, séances, witches, fortune tellers and the like actually have power but from Satan. Which is why their predictions are never perfectly accurate or eventually lead to vast trouble as Islam is currently experiencing.
That is my favorite subject and will debate it anywhere separately but it has nothing to do with Muhammad. He certainly was not doing Christ's will.
I have no idea what your premise's conclusion is. I know the verses but have no idea what your saying with them.
I did not understand this either, but shalom to you as well brother.
gnostic
The Lost One
Yes and no.
He was good at the start, but he became increasingly egotistic and ambitious when he got power in his hands, just like any tyrant.
Powers corrupt, and Muhammad wasn't immune to the corruption.
When people started questioning or disagreeing with him, Muhammad treated this as act of treason, the same way any autocratic despot, turn violently against them.
He was good at the start, but he became increasingly egotistic and ambitious when he got power in his hands, just like any tyrant.
Powers corrupt, and Muhammad wasn't immune to the corruption.
When people started questioning or disagreeing with him, Muhammad treated this as act of treason, the same way any autocratic despot, turn violently against them.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
How did you know that he did so ?
gnostic
The Lost One
FearGod said:
History is written by the victors, and their a lot of propaganda found in Islamic traditions, and in history and biographies.
Whether anything written about him is true, is anyone guess.
Everything is everyone else's false, not the Muslims' fault, and certainly never Muhammad's fault. One-sided.
And the corruption began with his arrival in Medina, when he became a mediator. The mistake was letting him gaining foothold of power.
Actually, I think he is a genius strategist. He is not a native, but he cleverly turn people against each other, driving out one tribe, and then fight one enemy after another. He used the strategy of divide-and-conquer; like I said clever.
When the Banu Qurayza surrender unconditionally after the siege, instead of providing mercy, he had the men killed, except for those who converted, and have the women and children enslaved. The ruling wasn't his, but he did approve it.
Don't get me wrong. I understand the strategy he used against his enemies and how he treated the war prisoners.
And when he entered Mecca, they (the Meccans) surrendered without bloodshed. Muhammad did granted them mercy that he didn't in Medina.
You might think that he was merciful, but it is act, because I have seen such actions before, and it was not so much being merciful, but excellent strategy and a very clever ploy.
Do you know of Roman history, FearGod?
In the civil war between Gnaeus Pompey Magnus and Gaius Julius Caesar, in which Caesar won and Pompey dead, he went on to defeat other supporters of Pompey in Syria, Africa and Spain, before returning to Rome.
My point in all this brief history lesson is that Caesar had a lot of enemies, in Rome, from the Senate and other officials. But instead of ordering proscription, Caesar offered amnesty for all who had opposed him. This act surprised both enemies and allies. For a while, his enemies offered praises, and the Rome's populace loved Caesar.
Muhammad is like Caesar. The act of mercy is nothing more than a ploy to win the supports of the populace, and have mass-converts. It is a very Machiavellian move, but also quite brilliant. I can admire Muhammad's genius as a strategist in battle and in politics, like Caesar, but it is not my idea of a good man.
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
How can you assent one story and reject the other,what is your evidence and proof that one story was correct and the other was false since it happened more than a thousand years ago.
For example it is recorded that the prophet warned his fighters as not to cause any harm to women,children and even not to harm the nature such as the trees,while you believe the other story which tells that he was cruel.
How you judge one story to be correct and the other to be false,is it by the story itself,if Mohammed bad in the story then it was a true story and if the story shows Mohammed as a good man then it is a false story,but of course it can't be both correct,it either he was good or he was bad,so how you judge,what is your evidences.
gnostic
The Lost One
feargod said:
But that's the thing about religion, there are no evidences. We have history, biography and traditions written by the winners.
Muhammad's life is written one-sided, so finding evidences are nigh impossible.
The silence from the other side, speak volumes, any true story are squashed by Muhammad's supporters. Even the Quran is one-sided.
There is nothing unbiased about his history, and it is colored by his companions and his supporters.
How am I supposed to get any truth from these history, biography or traditions?
I can't. The only thing i can do is look at what his companions and biographers have written.
You are asking for the impossible, feargod, when you ask for evidences, when the only evidences were written by his supporters.
feargod said:
You are white-washing the truth. Selling people into slavery is harmful.
What do you know about being a slave being a good thing? Do you have no conscience?
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
You lack the evidence,so you only pick up and believe the bad stories and reject the other ones.
gnostic
The Lost One
feargod said:
There no good stories or bad stories, they are the same stories. They are the stories told by Muslim historians, biographers, and theologists.
Like, I said it is one-sided story. You are just refusing to that the stories are biased.
The stories about the Banu Quraysu and Banu Nadir are only told by Muslims, and not by anyone in either of these tribes. We only read that Muhammad blah-blah is good or Muhammad blah-blah is right, and that these tribes blah-blah are bad or blah-blah are traitors.
It is nothing more than propaganda, when you only ever hear the Muslims' side of the story?
Fine, whatever I say or write will not have any impact on whatever you believe in, in any case, because you are only willing one side of the story.
So, instead of me disagreeing with you, then let me agree with you: selling women and children are good and merciful, executing those who don't convert or who don't believe that Muhammad as a prophet, deserved beheading or to be hung, so all is good and just.
Does that make you happy?
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
False, selective interpretation of the stories - well done.
Yes, Isaac(pbuh) and his descendants was to be honored ... so was Ismail(pbuh) and his descendants. You just picked the verse you liked about Isaac.
"I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring " Genesis 21:13 NIV
That is about Ismail(pbuh).
Once again nice cherry picking. What you quoted doesn't prove anything. The Qur'an repeatedly honors all the prophets of God in this world and the next. We do recognize and honor the biblical prophets. So that doesn't prove anything. But what you didn't quote is this :
"Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind." (Al Qur'an 5:12-13)
So as I have showed you above, you couldn't prove your point from either the Bible or the Qur'an - rather the Bible states that the Nation of Ismail will be honored and the Qur'an clarifies the end of covenant with the Children of Israel due to their breaking the promises.
You stated that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) matched the false Prophet test according to the Bible. And these verses clearly shows that He not only did not meet the false prophet criteria of the Bible but rather passed the True Prophet test. But obviously you'll have to ignore that.
Once again, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not deny Jesus, the Christ - neither did he deny the Father(God) of Jesus(pbuh). In fact, he confirmed that Jesus(pbuh) was the Christ the Messiah. So who's the one lying here ?
One more brilliant trickery of yours. You have the word 'savior' in parenthesis. The verse does not say that (and which verse is that anyway?) ... And Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not deny Jesus, the Christ. Fail again.
So far I have seen nothing from the Bible proving Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as false prophet - only seen attempts to make it appear so with tricks and lies. Well anyway, I'll continue ...
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Women were sold in the market as any goods prior to prophet Mohammed,tribes fighting each others in daily basis,prostitution,killing the baby female once born.
Now what you want to believe,the stories or what really happened,didn't that barbarian society reach Spain and helped Europe to overcome the dark ages.
You may say,no,they did nothing and Europe overcame the dark ages without the help of muslims or you may say that the muslims only restored the ancient science to Europe,but whatever you say and whatever i say,still both of us can't offer any evidence but just to believe what each of us wanted to believe.