Was Muhammad a good man?

[loverOfTruth]

Yeah:
1. He was not in the line of prophets.
2. Was not in the line of the covenant.
3. Denied Christ's own proclaimed significance and relevance.
4. Made no prophecies worthy of the name.
5. And made at best trivial attempts at miracles (refusing to even try when requested at times)

Yeah: certainly an obvious prophet.

Just claims without any evidence. And the fact that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not do a whole bunch of miracles like the other prophets actually proves that he is not the false prophet according to the Biblical verse I quoted.

Mark 13:21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

But of course, you would like to go against Jesus's(pbuh) advice and go for a prophet who will show false miracles. Fine, your choice.

And no prophecies ? Nice try ... feel free to read them ... too many to list here : Prophecies from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

I am aware that Muhammad, because of his being taught the bible by his uncle thought Christ a messanger. The problem is that he did not think him the savior he claimed to be.
Here is one of YOUR commentators on that surah: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. Pickthall

Messengers had come and gone. There was only one Christ the messiah. The definition of being a king/ anointed/ and savior. Muhammad believed neither of the three.

I guess Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) must have been a smart man learning the bible while there was no arabic bible present at that time and then even corrected all the mistakes of the Bible. Seems like only can be done with God's help.

Messiah is anointed which is not the same as savior...nice try in adding meaning to words.

That can cover many people with most of the scholars selecting Jesus. In fact almost every single one.

Obviously, Christian scholars will try to put Jesus(pbuh) in there even though Jesus(pbuh) couldn't be anywhere close to alike Moses(pbuh)

See what it says : '“from among their brethren, like unto thee.” Jesus(pbuh) is out questions because he is not really from the brethren of the Israelites. He is himself an Israelite. And there are a great deal more similarities between Prophets Moses and Muhammad than the similarities between prophets Moses and Jesus, may peace and blessings be upon them all.

In terms of parents, Moses had a normal mother and father and so did Muhammad. Jesus, however, was born only from a mother. In terms of birth, the birth of Moses was normal so was Muhammad’s where as Jesus’ birth was a virgin birth according to both the Muslim and Christian faiths.

Regarding family life: Moses married and had children so did Muhammad but it’s quite unlikely with Jesus. As far as we know, there are no records of him marrying or having any children.

In terms of death, Moses and Muhammad both had natural deaths from natural causes; the death of Jesus (according to the Christian faith) was a violent death- nailed to the cross.

In terms of the emphasis on his mission, we find that Moses’ mission was both spiritual and legal; he brought about a law. So did Muhammad. Jesus’ mission, on the other hand, was spiritual. Actually, he said ‘Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill’ (Mathew 5:17).

So that claim is just a baloney.

This is the third worst argument in Islamic history. The Holly Spirit showed up 500 years before Muhammad. He also performed acts in the OT for goodness sake. This is pure desperation and if I was a Muslim I would never ever mention it.

Actually, you just proved my point. Read what is says again : " But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." and in John 16 : " But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

So obviously Jesus(pbuh) was not talking about the Holy Spirit which was already there. He was talking about some comforter/advocate who was to give new information regarding God and guidance after Jesus(pbuh) left and 'He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears' . That's exactly what Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did - Qur'an is the verbatim word of God. It cannot be any clearer than that. Deny all you want.

That has no relevance but it is a commentary on the dark sides having power. People that speak to the dead or claim to, séances, witches, fortune tellers and the like actually have power but from Satan. Which is why their predictions are never perfectly accurate or eventually lead to vast trouble as Islam is currently experiencing.

Note the end of the statement 'but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven' - only Muslims today still keeping the will of the Father and even we keep saying 'if God wills'. That has nothing to do with dark powers. I have not that seen that in any commentary - may be you have your own commentary when it suits you. It is essentially talking about those very Christians who make Jesus(pbuh) the Lord and then they have a surprise on the day of Judgement since they didn't do the Will of the Father(God) but rather they prayed in the name of Jesus(pbuh). Sounds like a pretty big and clear warning to me.

I have no idea what your premise's conclusion is. I know the verses but have no idea what your saying with them.

I did not understand this either, but shalom to you as well brother.

That God is not Human and Humans shall not be worshiped. Peace.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Jesus never said anything about it being ok to rape kids...
Or hurt anyone.
So lets get that perfectly clear....

Muhammad got it backwards and was nothing more than a prophet.
And he abused his position completely.

Jesus is the Father and he taught us to love our enemies, and not kill them for rejecting "God".

 

[loverOfTruth]

Jesus never said anything about it being ok to rape kids...
Or hurt anyone.
So lets get that perfectly clear....

Muhammad got it backwards and was nothing more than a prophet.
And he abused his position completely.

Jesus is the Father and he taught us to love our enemies, and not kill them for rejecting "God".

Not sure about what all you are talking about ...

but you got one thing right ... that is Muhammad(pbuh) was no more than a Prophet/Messenger of God and so was Jesus(pbuh). See it for yourself - based on New Testament Scholar Bart Ehrman's How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee: Bart D. Ehrman: 9780061778186: Amazon.com: Books
And what he concluded is more like the Islamic version that is : "First he was a prophet. People made him a God." and that Jesus(pbuh) talked about another "Son of Man who was soon to bring judgment upon the earth."
You can read the article here : Did Jesus think he was God? New insights on Jesus’ own self-image - Salon.com

And by the way, if Jesus is the Father, so why did he pray to the Father(God) ? He was praying to himself ?

"One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God." Luke 6:12

"And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?&#8221"
Mark 15:34

And if Jesus is the Father, how come he didn't know the hour ? Did he forget ?
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32

And if Jesus is the Father, then who created Jesus as he himself was created and came out of a human womb. He created himself ?

And if Jesus is the Father, how come he didn't know anything and had to be taught by the Father ?
"So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." John 8:28

And if Jesus is the Father, who was running the show in the heavens when he decided to enter a human womb and come to the earth ?

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (Al Qur'an 4:171)
Peace.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Jesus never existed. Let's get that perfectly clear.

Actually Jesus did walk the earth.

 

[Sha'irullah]

WOW, hate maybe a bad choice of words but uninterested is more satisfying.

What changed your mind and your previous words of hate and love ?
Wasn't it because of my tricky question which proved my point that you are fixed in your bias attitude.

Here is whereyou have stopped making any sense. Please start answering questions and not making lune calls.
I never changed my mind on anything I simply answered your ludacrous statements. I understand that because Islam does not teach respect towards others it becomes apsychological factor for many Muslims but start making intelligent statements not false accusations

 

[FearGod]

Here is whereyou have stopped making any sense. Please start answering questions and not making lune calls.
I never changed my mind on anything I simply answered your ludacrous statements. I understand that because Islam does not teach respect towards others it becomes apsychological factor for many Muslims but start making intelligent statements not false accusations

You said the following

I never said Muhammad was an oppressor, I only started that his ethical system does not live up to advanced ethics we have today. But now that I think about it Muhammad is still hated by 1/4 the world's population and the love towards Kim Jong-il is strong along with his twisted son.

I need decent answer and not twisting one.

How can you know that people love Kim,are you in their hearts ?
How did you know that 1/4 hate Mohammed ?

I am not accusing you as to be a liar but just i need to know how you can know about people's feelings.

 

[1robin]

False, selective interpretation of the stories - well done.
Yes, Isaac(pbuh) and his descendants was to be honored ... so was Ismail(pbuh) and his descendants. You just picked the verse you liked about Isaac.

"I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring " Genesis 21:13 NIV
That is about Ismail(pbuh).

I didn't select anything except what was the most relevant. I know it is inconvenient for you but false accusations won't help. God made Isaac the heir of his covenant and the line of prophets. He even says at one point he only has one son to indicate that Ishmael was purely Abraham's son by a girl who was not his wife. God being just did not blame Ishmael for his fathers sins and offered him a blessing. He made a great nation out of his descendants and blessed them for a time but they were never in the one and only (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) covenant and were never prophets. He also said Ismael's people would be wild donkeys and would trouble their brothers constantly. How true. The point being Muhammad did not in any way, shape, or form come from the one and only line of prophets God authorized. This debate ends here and does so without question. The rest is irrelevant but to kill time I will respond anyway.

Once again nice cherry picking. What you quoted doesn't prove anything. The Qur'an repeatedly honors all the prophets of God in this world and the next. We do recognize and honor the biblical prophets. So that doesn't prove anything. But what you didn't quote is this :

I guess God's word is stacked against you that cherry picking claims are your only weak defense. The debate is about prophet hood. I "cherry picked" verses about prophet hood. Christians do not acknowledge the Quran as anything but a plagiarized text from a very troubled man and not authoritative on anything. So I am not bound to believe anything it says, however as Muhammad said the bible was to be used to judge the Quran you are bound by it's teachings. God never broke his covenant with the Jews, In fact he established an improved version of the covenant he never broke with them when Christ came. God is faithful even if we are not. His promise to Abraham was permanent.

New Living Translation
True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?

God upheld his part of the covenant whether the Jews did or not. They were never stripped of it and the line of prophets remained exactly as it was established all the way through Christ.

"Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind." (Al Qur'an 5:12-13)

I did not quote and do not quote anything from the Quran as if it is God's word. I only quote it when even it proves my point to indicate your own sources are in agreement with me. I never quote any of it as authoritative on anything except historical events at times. Since the Islamic might of five nations that outnumber Israel 80-1 cannot defeat them in over 5 wars I think it clear who has the covenant and who is acting like a donkey and troubling their neighbors. The above IMO appears to be Muhammad's excuse why he is now claiming prophet hood even though not authorized to do so. He is self authorizing his prophet hood by inventing what he could not know even if it was true.

Continued below:

 

[1robin]

So as I have showed you above, you couldn't prove your point from either the Bible or the Qur'an - rather the Bible states that the Nation of Ismail will be honored and the Qur'an clarifies the end of covenant with the Children of Israel due to their breaking the promises.

You did not. My point was proven in the first paragraph and nothing Muhammad ever said changed that. The line of prophets ended with Christ as the (beginning) alpha and OMEGA (end). The Holy spirit came afterwards but immediately afterwards and is not a prophet anyway, and certainly not Muhammad. God's covenant with Abraham and Isaac was not only if they were good. It included punishments if they strayed and decimations if they betrayed God but the covenant remained. The covenant included blessing cursing's, and the line of prophets. Israel sinned just as much before Christ as after and still the only prophets came from that line. They were not especially rotten just as Muhammad wanted to form a tyrannical empire and needed an excuse to claim prophet hood..

You stated that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) matched the false Prophet test according to the Bible. And these verses clearly shows that He not only did not meet the false prophet criteria of the Bible but rather passed the True Prophet test. But obviously you'll have to ignore that.

Do you ever read what I post. I showed three times false prophets deny Christ as savior. That he did.

Once again, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not deny Jesus, the Christ - neither did he deny the Father(God) of Jesus(pbuh). In fact, he confirmed that Jesus(pbuh) was the Christ the Messiah. So who's the one lying here ?

He denied that Christ was he (the savior and unique son of God). How about the test of speaking not what God had revealed: When the Messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated within himself and fervently desired such an outcome. Then God revealed:


By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire . . .and when he came to the words:
Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-‘Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?
Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:
These are the high-flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (Al-Tabari, p. 108)

Did Muhammad make any such false statement?

When Muhammad conquered the pagan Mecca, it worshipped 360 idols. The four most important among them were the moon god, "Sin", also known as "Hubal", also known as "Allah", and his three daughters: Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Al-Manat.

Muhammad's attempt to impose monotheism by keeping just Allah and ridding the other 359 Meccan idols faced resistance from Meccans who held Allah's three daughters very dear.

Eager to be accepted as a prophet in his native Mecca, Muhammad initially conceded that Allah approved of Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Al-Manat. But unable to reconcile three extra goddesses with his declared monotheism, Muhammad later reversed himself, confessing, "I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to him words which he has not spoken." (Al Tabari, The History of Al-Tabari, vol. 6, p.111) and said he had mistaken the words of "Satan" (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, pp.165-166) as Allah's.

Given Allah's true identity, the words of Allah and Satan would not be hard to confuse. Had Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of the God of the Bible, however, someone who hears from Satan, mistakes Satan's words as God's and fabricates "things against" God is a false prophet whom God said above, "shall die".
MUHAMMAD FALSE PROPHET - Muhammad Proven A False Prophet

One more brilliant trickery of yours. You have the word 'savior' in parenthesis. The verse does not say that (and which verse is that anyway?) ... And Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not deny Jesus, the Christ. Fail again.

There is nothing brilliant in parenthesis. Jesus said he came to forgive all men's sin's and die upon the cross, and that only by belief in him can anyone see God. Did Muhammad believe any of that. If not that makes Jesus a liar (or more likely Muhammad) and since all Islamic prophets are sinless then Muhammad denied he was even a prophet.

So far I have seen nothing from the Bible proving Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) as false prophet - only seen attempts to make it appear so with tricks and lies. Well anyway, I'll continue ...

Do not accuse me of lying and expect the debate to continue. Lying requires motives which you do not have access to. So your accusation is a lie. You can claim I am mistaken all day long if you wish but not a liar.


Lets add in here Muhammad's call to "prophet hood"

1. He was met by a being he called Gabriel who did not initially identify himself and scared Muhammad to death.
2. He was told to recite even though the angel knew he was "supposedly illiterate"
3. The angle then tortured him until he did so.
4. In Muhammad's word's he was squeezed until he thought he might die.
5. Muhammad initially thought he was possessed by a Jin.
6. His most faithful companions reported snorts, foaming at the mouth, animal noises, etc.... during revelations. Every single description of Muhammad's strange behavior exactly matches what Jesus mentioned concerning a demon possessed boy in the NT. I can find it for you if needed.
7. Every single time Gabriel appears in the bible he instantly identifies himself and says not to fear and that he bears good news. These are not the same entities.

What about any of that makes you have faith in his prophet hood. BTW I have not seen any prophecies or miracles yet.

 

[1robin]

Just claims without any evidence. And the fact that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not do a whole bunch of miracles like the other prophets actually proves that he is not the false prophet according to the Biblical verse I quoted.

Those claims are in the same book Muhammad said to use to judge the Quran. If is was good enough for him why not you?

Mark 13:21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

What does that have to do with Muhammad. I never even hinted he had a messiah complex. I said he was a false prophet..

But of course, you would like to go against Jesus's(pbuh) advice and go for a prophet who will show false miracles. Fine, your choice.

What the heck are you talking about. Jesus gave many signs of a false prophet and claiming to be the messiah was just one of many types.

And no prophecies ? Nice try ... feel free to read them ... too many to list here : Prophecies from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

I have and they are all weak. Only one even qualifies as a prophecy to begin with. I am not doing it again but if you post one or two I will respond.

I guess Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) must have been a smart man learning the bible while there was no arabic bible present at that time and then even corrected all the mistakes of the Bible. Seems like only can be done with God's help.

I imagine he was fairly smart but he also had an uncle with a mangled understanding of the bible he learned from. That is why so many of his biblical stories are mangled beyond recognition. There were also many heretical groups of Jews known to have migrated to Arabia in Muhammad's time which further explains where Muhammad's heretical biblical teachings come from.

Messiah is anointed which is not the same as savior...nice try in adding meaning to words.

The same messiah you mention claimed to forgive all men's sins, and that no one who does not believe he is all that he claimed to be (the unique son of God, co-occupant of God's throne, the same as the father, and eternal) will ever see God, and to have to die on the cross. Muhammad go along with any of those? I guess he is an-antichrist then.

Obviously, Christian scholars will try to put Jesus(pbuh) in there even though Jesus(pbuh) couldn't be anywhere close to alike Moses(pbuh)

I am not even going to respond to source bias claims. Islam lives on them like water.

Continued below:

 

[1robin]

See what it says : '“from among their brethren, like unto thee.” Jesus(pbuh) is out questions because he is not really from the brethren of the Israelites. He is himself an Israelite. And there are a great deal more similarities between Prophets Moses and Muhammad than the similarities between prophets Moses and Jesus, may peace and blessings be upon them all.

Only Jews are from Jews. That prophet was said to do many miracles. Did Christ or Muhammad do more? Can Muhammad match these similarities?
(1) Both Moses and Jesus were born when Israel was under bondage (Moses in Egypt Ex.1:8,10, and Jesus during Israel's Roman bondage. Mt.2:1,Lk.2:1-2)

(2) Edicts were issued by the gentile powers of both Pharaoh and Herod for their death at birth. (Ex.2:3, Mt.2:15)

(3) Both were miraculously delivered from death during their infancy from their enemies of Israel (Ex.2:3, Lk.2:7;Mt 2:14,15) and were preserved in childhood.

(4) Both had been born and found in unusual places. Moses was found in the water floating in a basket of bulrushes (Ex.2:3) Jesus in a manger (cave) wrapped in burial cloths (Lk.2:7) (5) Both Moses and Jesus were protected and preserved by the faith of their parent. Moses was hidden by faith (Ex.2:2-3 and Heb.11:23) Jesus’ life was preserved by his parents obeying the message in a dream. (Mt.2:13-14)

(6) Both Moses and Jesus stayed safely in Egypt for a time. Moses (Ex.2:10) Jesus dwelt safely in Egypt (Mt.2:14-15)

(7) Both had their brethren and family speak against them. Moses had Mariam and Aaron speak against him taking a Cu****e wife (Numb.12:1) Jesus had his family criticize and reject him (Mt.13:54-57, Jn.7:3)

(8) Both Moses and Jesus were reared in the house that was not their natural parents. (Moses in the house of Pharaoh (Ex.2:10) Jesus by Mary the mother of his humanity and his stepfather Joseph.

(9) Both predicted Israel's history (Deut.28:15-28; Mt.23:34,24:1,2,8,34)

(10) Both spoke out against Israel's enemies and persecutors. (Deut.23:3-4; Mt.25:41-48)

(11) Both were considered a snare to Israel (Ex10:7; 1Pt.2:8=Isa.8:14)

(12) Both cleansed leprosy. From Moses’ time no one that was Jewish was cleansed until Jesus came (Numb.12:10-16, Mk.1:40-41). This is a very significant factor that proves Jesus was the prophet Moses spoke of, since no other cured one of the brethren of this disease from Moses' time.

(13) Both were used of God to feed Israel miraculously, Moses with manna in the wilderness (Ex.16:14-17) Jesus with the five loaves and two fish fed four and five thousand two times. (Mt.14:19-21) Jesus also called himself the true manna that came from heaven in Jn.6, comparing himself to the miracle that sustained Israel alive through the desert.

(14) Both had the forces of nature obey them (the seas) Moses (Ex.14:21-22) Jesus (Mt.8:26-27)

(15) Each had seventy helpers Moses (Num.11:16-17) Jesus ( Lk.10:1).

(16) Both fasted 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness to bring a covenant to Israel. Moses on the top of Mt. Sinai (Ex.24:18, 34:28, Deut.9:9) Jesus in the desert as the Son of God (Mt.4:2)

(17) Both had a face to face relationship with God unlike any other person. Moses (Ex.33:9-11, Deut.34:10; Numb.12:7-8) Jesus was with God=face to face from eternity (Jn.1:1,18)

(18) God spoke audibly and directly from heaven to both Moses and Jesus. Moses (Ex.20:22, 24:12-16) Jesus (Mt.3:17; Jn.12:28)

(19) Both were God's spokesman to and for the people. Moses (Ex.9:35; Numb.12:2) Jesus (Heb.1:1-3). They Spoke as oracles of God (Moses Deut. 18:18) Jesus (Jn.14:24, 5:24)

(20) Both Moses and Jesus reflected and shown the glory of God. Moses reflected his glory temporarily. (Ex.34:29-35; 2 Cor.3:7-14) Jesus at the transfiguration, his face shown brighter than the sun revealing his true nature (Mt.17:2; Jn.1:14)

(21) Both were known for their humility and meekness as God's servants. Moses (Numb.12:3) Jesus (Mt.11:29; Phil.2:3-8)

(22) Both contended with masters of deception and darkness Moses with Pharaohs magicians (Ex 7:11, 1 Tim.3:8) Jesus with the Devil (Mt 4:1).

(23) Both prayed for the people intercessory prayers and were willing to bear the consequences of the people's sins. Moses asked to be blotted out of the book of life for the peoples sake (Ex.32:32-33). Jesus asked for them to be kept from falling away (Jn. 17:9-17). Jesus asked for those to be forgiven while he bore the consequences in their stead. (Lk.23:34, 2 Cor.5:19, 1 Pt.2:21-24, Isa.53:8)

(25) Both Moses and Jesus were rejected by their own brethren for a time and accepted by the gentiles. Moses (Ex.2:14-22, 32:1) Jesus was rejected by his own people and received by another who were not his own. (Isa.53:3; Mt.12:21; Mk.6:4; Lk.20:9-17, Rom.11:20)

(26) Both Moses and Jesus established a priesthood. Moses began the Aaronic priesthood which was temporary under the law (Lev.9; Numb.8:20-26; Heb.9:19-22). Jesus established a eternal priesthood under the new covenant of grace which He alone functions as the high priest forever. (Heb.7:17,19,23,25-28; 9:12)

(27) Both sprinkled the blood of the covenant on the altar and the people. Moses (Ex.24:7-8; Lev.8:19) Jesus (Heb.9,12:24; 1Pt.1:2)

(28) Both were sent by God to reveal His name, person and law to the people. To Moses God said to tell them I Am sent you. (Ex.3:13-14) Jesus said God sent him as his exact representative revealing his name (I Am) and nature to the people. (Jn.8:42; 17:6,11-12; Col.2:9; Heb.1:3)

(29) Both were involved in giving the covenant to the people Jn.1:17 the law came through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” At the feast of Pentecost Moses gave the law. At the feast (Pentecost) in the new covenant Jesus gave the Holy Spirit (Acts 2).

(30) Both brought deliverance to the Jewish people. Those who followed Moses out of the bondage of slavery to Egypt. (Ex.3:7-8,10;12:31-33,42) Jesus brought people out of a greater bondage, slavery to sin. (Rom.3:24-25,6:6-7,8:2-4; Eph.1:7;Heb.9:26)

(31) Both had an angel guard their graves. After Moses died Michael the Arch-angel guarded his body. (Jude 9) And when Jesus rose an angel guarded his tomb. (Mt.26:2-6)

(32) Both re-appeared after they died, Moses ( Mt 17:3 with Jesus before his death) Jesus (Acts 1:3)

In terms of parents, Moses had a normal mother and father and so did Muhammad. Jesus, however, was born only from a mother. In terms of birth, the birth of Moses was normal so was Muhammad’s where as Jesus’ birth was a virgin birth according to both the Muslim and Christian faiths.

Regarding family life: Moses married and had children so did Muhammad but it’s quite unlikely with Jesus. As far as we know, there are no records of him marrying or having any children.

In terms of death, Moses and Muhammad both had natural deaths from natural causes; the death of Jesus (according to the Christian faith) was a violent death- nailed to the cross.

In terms of the emphasis on his mission, we find that Moses’ mission was both spiritual and legal; he brought about a law. So did Muhammad. Jesus’ mission, on the other hand, was spiritual. Actually, he said ‘Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill’ (Mathew 5:17).

So that claim is just a baloney.

I gave 33 and you gave 4 and declared victory. Typical!!!!

Continued again, sorry.

 

[1robin]

Actually, you just proved my point. Read what is says again : " But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." and in John 16 : " But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

So obviously Jesus(pbuh) was not talking about the Holy Spirit which was already there. He was talking about some comforter/advocate who was to give new information regarding God and guidance after Jesus(pbuh) left and 'He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears' . That's exactly what Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did - Qur'an is the verbatim word of God. It cannot be any clearer than that. Deny all you want.

Jesus was speaking to the apostles who had not been born again and did not have the Holy Spirit. They received it a month after Christ left in the upper-room. It certainly was not Muhammad running around in there causing them to speak in tongues and from that point turning them from lambs into lions for the message not afraid to die of suffer imprisonment after that event. He was also speaking about the Holy Spirits coming to live as a possession in the heart of the saved man. The Holy Spirit had appeared before but he always acted and then left. This was part of the new covenant and if Christ did not depart it could not be enacted. That last part requires serious OT and NT knowledge that most Muslims do not have. But the first part is easy to understand and this additional part even easier. It also says the Holy spirit appeared TO THE APOSTLES in order to remind them of what they were recording. Was that Muhammad as well. This is an argument so bad it embarrasses me for you.

Note the end of the statement 'but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven' - only Muslims today still keeping the will of the Father and even we keep saying 'if God wills'. That has nothing to do with dark powers. I have not that seen that in any commentary - may be you have your own commentary when it suits you. It is essentially talking about those very Christians who make Jesus(pbuh) the Lord and then they have a surprise on the day of Judgement since they didn't do the Will of the Father(God) but rather they prayed in the name of Jesus(pbuh). Sounds like a pretty big and clear warning to me.

I do not think Muslims who are never first on the scene of international tragedy and are actually the causes of many of those tragedies, flying planes into buildings, or chanting death to America is the streets by the thousands, claiming Israel does not have the right to exist, denying women's rights, making it illegal to get out if Islam, having the most oppressive media and police states on earth and so many more I am getting tired listing them are doing anything for God.

That God is not Human and Humans shall not be worshiped. Peace.

The divine part of Jesus was not human and the human part of Jesus was not divine so no worries there. Selah,

 

[loverOfTruth]

I didn't select anything except what was the most relevant. I know it is inconvenient for you but false accusations won't help. God made Isaac the heir of his covenant and the line of prophets. He even says at one point he only has one son to indicate that Ishmael was purely Abraham's son by a girl who was not his wife. God being just did not blame Ishmael for his fathers sins and offered him a blessing. He made a great nation out of his descendants and blessed them for a time but they were never in the one and only (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) covenant and were never prophets. He also said Ismael's people would be wild donkeys and would trouble their brothers constantly. How true. The point being Muhammad did not in any way, shape, or form come from the one and only line of prophets God authorized. This debate ends here and does so without question. The rest is irrelevant but to kill time I will respond anyway.

Wrong again on multiple fronts.

Hagar was the wife of Abraham records the Bible:
" Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave-girl, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife." Genesis 16: 3

Both Isaac and Ismail were considered Sons even at Abraham's(pbuh) death.

"And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which {is} before Mamre." Gen. 25:9

So once again your theory fails according to your own scripture.

I guess God's word is stacked against you that cherry picking claims are your only weak defense. The debate is about prophet hood. I "cherry picked" verses about prophet hood. Christians do not acknowledge the Quran as anything but a plagiarized text from a very troubled man and not authoritative on anything. So I am not bound to believe anything it says, however as Muhammad said the bible was to be used to judge the Quran you are bound by it's teachings. God never broke his covenant with the Jews, In fact he established an improved version of the covenant he never broke with them when Christ came. God is faithful even if we are not. His promise to Abraham was permanent.

New Living Translation
True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?

God upheld his part of the covenant whether the Jews did or not. They were never stripped of it and the line of prophets remained exactly as it was established all the way through Christ.

You were trying to show me from the Qur'an that Israelis still had the covenant and you did not quote the verse that showed that it is not true. So in essence you were cherry picking to make your point whether you believe in the Qur'an or not. Typical you.

I did not quote and do not quote anything from the Quran as if it is God's word. I only quote it when even it proves my point to indicate your own sources are in agreement with me. I never quote any of it as authoritative on anything except historical events at times. Since the Islamic might of five nations that outnumber Israel 80-1 cannot defeat them in over 5 wars I think it clear who has the covenant and who is acting like a donkey and troubling their neighbors. The above IMO appears to be Muhammad's excuse why he is now claiming prophet hood even though not authorized to do so. He is self authorizing his prophet hood by inventing what he could not know even if it was true.

Continued below:

Now unable to show anything with scriptural evidence...you start talking non-sense which has nothing to do with the debate.

 

[loverOfTruth]

You did not. My point was proven in the first paragraph and nothing Muhammad ever said changed that. The line of prophets ended with Christ as the (beginning) alpha and OMEGA (end). The Holy spirit came afterwards but immediately afterwards and is not a prophet anyway, and certainly not Muhammad. God's covenant with Abraham and Isaac was not only if they were good. It included punishments if they strayed and decimations if they betrayed God but the covenant remained. The covenant included blessing cursing's, and the line of prophets. Israel sinned just as much before Christ as after and still the only prophets came from that line. They were not especially rotten just as Muhammad wanted to form a tyrannical empire and needed an excuse to claim prophet hood..

Once again wrong. Jesus(pbuh) was not the last in the line of Prophets. Now, in John we read "And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No."John 1:19-21

We notice that there are three distinct prophecies here: 1) Elias, 2) Jesus, 3) That prophet. The Jews were not waiting for two prophecies, but three. This can be further clarified by reading John:
"And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be:
a) not that Christ,
b) nor Elias,
c) neither that prophet?"John 1:25

If "that prophet" were Jesus (pbuh) wouldn't the third question in both verses be redundant? Further, we must remember that "That prophet" can not apply to any prophet before the time of Jesus (pbuh) because at the time of Jesus (pbuh) the Jews were still waiting for all three. So that 3rd Prophet is Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

Do you ever read what I post. I showed three times false prophets deny Christ as savior. That he did.

You just claimed so far but did not show a single verse with actual reference showing that. There's no verse that says if one denies Jesus as Savior, then he is a false Prophet.

He denied that Christ was he (the savior and unique son of God). How about the test of speaking not what God had revealed: When the Messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated within himself and fervently desired such an outcome. Then God revealed:

Not sure what this has to do with anything. Even Jesus(pbuh) was rejected by his own people...all the prophets were...so what are you trying to say ?
'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11)

By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire . . .and when he came to the words:
Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-‘Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?
Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:
These are the high-flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (Al-Tabari, p. 108)

Did Muhammad make any such false statement?

When Muhammad conquered the pagan Mecca, it worshipped 360 idols. The four most important among them were the moon god, "Sin", also known as "Hubal", also known as "Allah", and his three daughters: Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Al-Manat.

Muhammad's attempt to impose monotheism by keeping just Allah and ridding the other 359 Meccan idols faced resistance from Meccans who held Allah's three daughters very dear.

Eager to be accepted as a prophet in his native Mecca, Muhammad initially conceded that Allah approved of Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Al-Manat. But unable to reconcile three extra goddesses with his declared monotheism, Muhammad later reversed himself, confessing, "I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to him words which he has not spoken." (Al Tabari, The History of Al-Tabari, vol. 6, p.111) and said he had mistaken the words of "Satan" (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, pp.165-166) as Allah's.

Given Allah's true identity, the words of Allah and Satan would not be hard to confuse. Had Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of the God of the Bible, however, someone who hears from Satan, mistakes Satan's words as God's and fabricates "things against" God is a false prophet whom God said above, "shall die".
MUHAMMAD FALSE PROPHET - Muhammad Proven A False Prophet

That BS has been refuted long long time ago ....
Refutation to Robert Morey's Moon-god Myth - by Shabir Ali

Reply To Robert Morey's Moon-God Allah Myth: A Look At The Archaeological Evidence

"ALLAH" NAME OF "MOON-GOD"?

and the final one : The "Allah is the Moon-God" Nonsense Could be the Stupidest Anti-Muslim Conspiracy Theory Yet, Page I | loonwatch.com

if you need anymore...please let me know

There is nothing brilliant in parenthesis. Jesus said he came to forgive all men's sin's and die upon the cross, and that only by belief in him can anyone see God. Did Muhammad believe any of that. If not that makes Jesus a liar (or more likely Muhammad) and since all Islamic prophets are sinless then Muhammad denied he was even a prophet.

You are trying to fill in the dots and make up stuff here. I have shown you scripture from Bible showing a false Prophet would deny Jesus the Christ - as simple as that. It does not say he will deny Jesus the Christ as Savior. And Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) did not deny Jesus the Christ. You keep adding the word Savior and have not yet provided any scripture that says that. Please bring reference.

Do not accuse me of lying and expect the debate to continue. Lying requires motives which you do not have access to. So your accusation is a lie. You can claim I am mistaken all day long if you wish but not a liar.


Lets add in here Muhammad's call to "prophet hood"

1. He was met by a being he called Gabriel who did not initially identify himself and scared Muhammad to death.
2. He was told to recite even though the angel knew he was "supposedly illiterate"
3. The angle then tortured him until he did so.
4. In Muhammad's word's he was squeezed until he thought he might die.
5. Muhammad initially thought he was possessed by a Jin.
6. His most faithful companions reported snorts, foaming at the mouth, animal noises, etc.... during revelations. Every single description of Muhammad's strange behavior exactly matches what Jesus mentioned concerning a demon possessed boy in the NT. I can find it for you if needed.
7. Every single time Gabriel appears in the bible he instantly identifies himself and says not to fear and that he bears good news. These are not the same entities.

What about any of that makes you have faith in his prophet hood. BTW I have not seen any prophecies or miracles yet.

Muhummed's experience in the cave of Hira, later to be known as Jabal-un Noor - The Mountain of Light, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfilment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaish. Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Readin g', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Cathol ics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghose - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : "READ!").

Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly know "AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12).

And what nonsense are you talking about regarding the fear the people felt when the Angel Gabriel came. It is exactly the same. Read for yourself.

"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. " Luke 1:29

""Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. " Luke 1:11

It's the exact same story. Amazing how you can twist the truth, add some more falsehood to it and present it to prove your point. Well done.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Actually Jesus did walk the earth.

I don't understand. I just told you the truth about Jesus. Why are you having trouble getting it straight?

 

[Amechania]

So far, by a large margin, people have selected "Muhammad was awful and should be condemned." Two billion people follow this man's teachings. How could he be so awful? Do all these people do awful things? Or do they try to live moral lives, love one another, and respect the beauty of that which is greater than themselves, as this man taught?

 

[gnostic]

Women were sold in the market as any goods prior to prophet Mohammed,tribes fighting each others in daily basis,prostitution,killing the baby female once born.

Now what you want to believe,the stories or what really happened,didn't that barbarian society reach Spain and helped Europe to overcome the dark ages.

You may say,no,they did nothing and Europe overcame the dark ages without the help of muslims or you may say that the muslims only restored the ancient science to Europe,but whatever you say and whatever i say,still both of us can't offer any evidence but just to believe what each of us wanted to believe.

This topic is about whether Muhammad was a good man or not; it is not about what the Islamic empires did or did not do.

Muhammad had nothing to do with the empires reaching Europe or with Muslims being involved in science. There are no evidences to support what happen century or centuries after his death.

We are only interested in what he did do or not do, while he was alive, in either public life (politics and military) or private life (marriage, children, etc).

And the stories after his death, were mainly done by Muslims (historians and biographers). Like I said before, these stories now told, are one-sided. No one on the Banu Nadir or the Banu Qurayzu, were involved in writing history to explain their side of the stories.

Do you not understand?

All the stories I've seen so far, come from Muslim sources. It is these sources that I have used, to say whether he is a good man or not.

As I said earlier, he was good and bad man.

That he allowed for the women and children of the Banu Qurayzu, and the men executed who didn't embrace Islam, after the siege of their stronghold and after they had surrenders unconditionally, doesn't show the prophet to be a "good man".

What it does show is that, he was like any warlord of his time, he won't blink when it come to selling women and children into slavery. Selling them is after all, is a more profitable than executing them, in which they can buy more much-needed arms or supplies to fight more battles and wars.

Did he do good too?

I would say "yes". He did built trust and compassion in the community, and women were in better position, status-wise, then those of the non-Muslim Arab women, and certainly better off than the European women.

He wasn't always ruthless, but so was Julius Caesar. Caesar could be ruthless or magnanimous.

The problem is, that you can only see the good in him, and I can't really blame for taking this stance. But I see him both good and bad, and the "bad" or his ruthlessness is that he wasn't merciful towards the women and children after the siege of the Qurayzu stronghold.

He didn't show them the same mercy as he had showed the Meccans when they had surrendered.

The fates of both Qurayzu and Nadir could have being the fate of the Meccans if they didn't surrender in 630. I think what happened in Medina, as well as other victories against the Meccan forces, cowed Mecca into finally surrendering in 630.

So being ruthless against the Qurayzu in 627 and magnanimous to Mecca in 630, was a brilliant stroke of Machiavellian genius, on Muhammad's part. It showed that Muhammad can be both ruthless and merciful.

 

[Sha'irullah]

You said the following

I need decent answer and not twisting one.

You are the one twisting answers

How can you know that people love Kim,are you in their hearts ?
How did you know that 1/4 hate Mohammed ?

I meant 3/4 the 1/4 is the Muslim population, I addressed this earlier, or not. Frankly I do not care. I also specifically said that the best word would be uninterested or unconcerned which you for some reason made a mockery of.

 

[FearGod]

You are the one twisting answers

Where did i ?

I meant 3/4 the 1/4 is the Muslim population, I addressed this earlier, or not. Frankly I do not care. I also specifically said that the best word would be uninterested or unconcerned which you for some reason made a mockery of.

Yes,you changed and twisted your own words after i trapped you with your lies.

On the other hand I am accusing you of being a liar.

Where did i ?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Did Muhammad oppose homosexuality based on religious reasons?
Did he oppose women having a political voice or having equality to men?
Did he wage religious based wars?

 

[FearGod]

Did Muhammad oppose homosexuality based on religious reasons?
Did he oppose women having a political voice or having equality to men?
Did he wage religious based wars?

God doesn't ask muslims to do the punishment for homosexuality as the quran shows that such a attitude is diffused among unfaithful nations and God is the only one who may punish one nation by erasing it from existence as he did with people of Lot.

Women were buried alive before Islam and treated badly.

Wars were a military ones,warriors against warriors,the message of Islam was a peaceful one as to stop oppression and wrong attitudes among people but the disbelievers tried to stop the message by force and God sent the permission to Mohammed to fight back and God said that even though that fighting is a bad choice but if needed then it will be the best choice.

[youtube]kngj0TJjOkc[/youtube]
Emotional This Made Our Prophet Cry! YouTube - YouTube

The last sermon of the prophet which have been witnessed by more than a hundred thousand person (men and women)

[youtube]i3Xc1MfX9X8[/youtube]
The Prophet Muhammad's Last Sermon - YouTube