Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

[TransmutingSoul]

How do Baha'i's reconcile with the fact that Muhammad stated that6 he is the final prophet and messenger of God and that none will come after him considering that you may consider him a messenger of God?

I have seen this explained many times by Baha'i. I agree it is a plausible explanation.

Muhammad was the seal of the prophets. The age of Prophecy from Adam to Muhammad had ended.

The Holy books then all talk of an age of fulfilment, the Bible prays for Thy Kingdom Come.

Thus the Bab and Baha'u'llah have ushered in the age of Fulfilment and if I remember correctly it will last for 500,000 years.

Peace be with you always.

 

[Danny1988]

Its unlikely that Muhammad wrote anything - he was, by all accounts, illiterate.

Its a perfectly sensible way to ensure peace with the neighbours who are left after you have destroyed everyone who doesn't agree with you...which brings me to...

...perhaps, but isn't the point of the final battle of Armageddon the complete destruction of all Christ's enemies - i.e. everyone who doesn't believe in him? And that image of the "wicked" being trampled so that their blood runs as deep as the bridles of the horses...and doesn't Christ ride at the head of the four horsemen and slaughter people with a long sword so that his white garments are spattered with their blood? Its a pretty gory end that's prognosticated for the irredeemable non-Christians - I reckon being pushed into the sea is pretty tame by comparison. And what about the poor people of Chorazin and Bethsaida - didn't Christ himself predict a heavier penalty than was meted out to Tyre (whilst we are on pushing nations into the sea) and Sidon and Sodom and Gomorrah - that was a pretty violent end for God's enemies wouldn't you say?

I did say that Christians are only allowed to kill in self defense, so all the above mentioned countries and cities such as Sodom and Gomorrah are actually at war with Gods people so war against them is justified.

Christ is coming back to destroy Gods enemies, it will be the biggest and final battle in human history. Christ never taught anyone to conquer the world by the sword, to do that is to kill people and steal their possessions. He taught conquest by sharing the Gospel, so people would be saved from their sins.

Time is running short, He could return at any moment so we should all prepare to meet Him by repenting and believing in Him for the forgiveness of our sins so we can inherit eternal life in paradise.

 

[Danny1988]

I am more inclined towards the peaceful Muhammad, than I am with waring men. This is the Ashtiname of Muhammad and I see this more reflects the Koran.

English Translation of the Ashtiname by Anton F. Haddad

This is a letter which was issued by Mohammed, Ibn Abdullah, the Messenger, the Prophet, the Faithful, who is sent to all the people as a trust on the part of God to all His creatures, that they may have no plea against God hereafter. Verily God is Omnipotent, the Wise. This letter is directed to the embracers of Islam, as a covenant given to the followers of Jesus the Nazarene in the East and West, the far and near, the Arabs and foreigners, the known and the unknown.

This letter contains the oath given unto them, and he who disobeys that which is therein will be considered a disbeliever and a transgressor to that whereunto he is commanded. He will be regarded as one who has corrupted the oath of God, disbelieved His Testament, rejected His Authority, despised His Religion, and made himself deserving of His Curse, whether he is a Sultan or any other believer of Islam. Whenever Christian monks, devotees and pilgrims gather together, whether in a mountain or valley, or den, or frequented place, or plain, or church, or in houses of worship, verily we are [at the] back of them and shall protect them, and their properties and their morals, by Myself, by My Friends and by My Assistants, for they are of My Subjects and under My Protection.

I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.

No one is allowed to plunder these Christians, or destroy or spoil any of their churches, or houses of worship, or take any of the things contained within these houses and bring it to the houses of Islam. And he who takes away anything therefrom, will be one who has corrupted the oath of God, and, in truth, disobeyed His Messenger.

Jizya should not be put upon their judges, monks, and those whose occupation is the worship of God; nor is any other thing to be taken from them, whether it be a fine, a tax or any unjust right. Verily I shall keep their compact, wherever they may be, in the sea or on the land, in the East or West, in the North or South, for they are under My Protection and the testament of My Safety, against all things which they abhor.

No taxes or tithes should be received from those who devote themselves to the worship of God in the mountains, or from those who cultivate the Holy Lands. No one has the right to interfere with their affairs, or bring any action against them. Verily this is for aught else and not for them; rather, in the seasons of crops, they should be given a Kadah for each Ardab of wheat (about five bushels and a half) as provision for them, and no one has the right to say to them 'this is too much', or ask them to pay any tax.

As to those who possess properties, the wealthy and merchants, the poll-tax to be taken from them must not exceed twelve drachmas a head per year (i.e. about 200 modern day US dollars).

They shall not be imposed upon by anyone to undertake a journey, or to be forced to go to wars or to carry arms; for the Muslims have to fight for them. Do no dispute or argue with them, but deal according to the verse recorded in the Quran, to wit: ‘Do not dispute or argue with the People of the Book but in that which is best’ [29:46]. Thus they will live favored and protected from everything which may offend them by the Callers to religion (Islam), wherever they may be and in any place they may dwell.

Should any Christian woman be married to a Muslim, such marriage must not take place except after her consent, and she must not be prevented from going to her church for prayer. Their churches must be honored and they must not be withheld from building churches or repairing convents.

They must not be forced to carry arms or stones; but the Muslims must protect them and defend them against others. It is positively incumbent upon every one of the follower of Islam not to contradict or disobey this oath until the Day of Resurrection and the end of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtiname_of_Muhammad

Peace be with you.

All that sounds good but it doesn't address the problem of people using the Koran to justify acts of terror and war against the "infidels". I have heard debates on this subject and the conclusion was that the Koran can be used to justify a war against infidels.

You can't use the teaching of Christ to declare war or use violence against anyone, unless they are literally attacking you.

 

[stvdv]

I know you were - and I did not mean to be unkind - but my experience is that almost everyone who cites the parable of the blind men and the elephant are completely convinced that it is everyone else that has a limited understanding - which is kind of the point in the tail of the tale of John Godfrey Saxe's poetic retelling:

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

And that version of the moral of the tale (tale not tail this time) suggests that the entire notion of "Messengers of God" is mistaken because it demands that certain individuals have a clearer image of God than they possibly could have on account of them being humans and limited to human understanding. "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18) and anyone who claims to giving a better description than any other is surely among those who "rail on in utter ignorance" and "prate about an elephant not one of them has seen". They are, I reckon, more like old Mother Riley in the not so famous version of an old nursery rhyme:

To market, to market to buy a fat cow
To milk it, to milk it she did not know how
She pulled on the tail instead of the ***
And poor mother Riley got covered in ****

Yes I know - poor taste and all that - but the point is if we fall hook, line and sinker for the detailed descriptions of unseen things provided by fellow humans who are, in reality and of necessity, at least as blind as we are, we shouldn't be surprised if we end up wading through a pile of old BS.

And all the rational skeptics echoed a cynical amen!

Thanks, that was the point. Nobody knows the "Full Truth" IMHO.
And when they claim so, I become a bit naughty, and ask them a simple question about myself "I only know". They always fail my test, proving they don't know the "Full Truth". Of course there are exceptions to this, the ones who have this "Omniscience" thing. I don't happen to bump into them often. So far I met one that passed all my tests

I liked your examples and explanation. Thanks. I didn't find it "poor taste...". Spam filter did catch the S in BS though, saving us from "bad smell"

Question: "She pulled on the tail instead of the ***", what word you filled in there to get it asterixed. Was it not "tit"?

 

[Dawnofhope]

How do Baha'i's reconcile with the fact that Muhammad stated that6 he is the final prophet and messenger of God and that none will come after him considering that you may consider him a messenger of God?

This is the crucial point why many Muslims consider the Baha’is apostates and our faith is persecuted in some Islamic countries. Obviously Baha’is have a different perspective on Surah 33:40.

And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners.
8:30

http://bahaiteachings.org/5-reasons-why-muhammad-is-not-the-seal-of-the-prophets

 

[Dawnofhope]

All that sounds good but it doesn't address the problem of people using the Koran to justify acts of terror and war against the "infidels". I have heard debates on this subject and the conclusion was that the Koran can be used to justify a war against infidels.

You can't use the teaching of Christ to declare war or use violence against anyone, unless they are literally attacking you.

It’s a race to the bottom of the heap when it comes to the violence perpetrated by both Christianity and Islam in the name of God. To argue that Christians have never used the bible to justify violence is indefensible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

 

[Danny1988]

It’s a race to the bottom of the heap when it comes to the violence perpetrated by both Christianity and Islam in the name of God. To argue that Christians have never used the bible to justify violence is indefensible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

With all due respect, that link doesn't say anything about the Christian view of war or violence.

Lets get the basic facts right before we run off with all kinds of false ideas.

Fact 1. A Christian is a follower of Christ.
Fact 2. If you follow Christ you will obey Him.
Fact 3. Christ never used violence and He never advised His followers to use violence to achieve anything.
Fact 4. No follower of Christ has ever used violence to achieve a political or personal goal.
Fact 5. It's impossible to justify using violence as a follower of Christ.
Fact 6. The crusades were commissioned by the Roman Catholic Church, which is not Christian.
fact 7. The Roman Catholic Church executed over 50 million Christian Saints

Nobody has ever or will ever be able to charge Christians with acts of terror or violence, we love our enemies and we do good to everyone. That's what our Savior teaches us to do, and all true Christians obey Him.

Please don't accuse Christians of committing evil, I know there are many who use the name of Christ to commit evil but they are obviously not Christians. They are importers, who come as wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Muhammad is just a human copy cat having a bad understanding of what a messenger is.

God's message is about a fundamental approach of how humans can pass along a piece of information. It is a process of faith in testimonies. It's about the gathering of information from human eyewitnesses of God Himself. Muhammad is not an eyewitness of God as all the OT prophets are. he's a counterfeit only claimed to have acquired hearsay from a suspected angel.

I find this argument about copying hypocritical given Christianity has taken the Hebrew Bible as their own. The truth is Muhammad was simply teaching His followers about the prophets before Him as Christ builds on previous prophets to bring a new Message from God. There is just as much reason to believe Muhammad was a Messenger of God as Christ or Moses.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You can't use the teaching of Christ to declare war or use violence against anyone, unless they are literally attacking you.

I know of no teaching of Jesus the Christ about war. I would see many Muslims would agree with you and would offer that was the intent of Muhammad in the Koran.

Peace be with you.

 

[Danny1988]

I know of no teaching of Jesus the Christ about war. I would see many Muslims would agree with you and would offer that was the intent of Muhammad in the Koran.

Peace be with you.

I don't see how that was the intent of Mohammad, since He personally executed over 900 people just because they didn't agree with him. He also taught his follower to conquer the world by the sword, so he can't be compared to Jesus who taught peace and forgiveness.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Christ is coming back to destroy Gods enemies, it will be the biggest and final battle in human history. .

Ah yes the prince of peace. People forget that according to evangelical interpretation of revelation, Jesus will come back and kill unbelievers. People will be killed and will die violently.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

This is the crucial point why many Muslims consider the Baha’is apostates and our faith is persecuted in some Islamic countries. Obviously Baha’is have a different perspective on Surah 33:40.

And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners.
8:30

http://bahaiteachings.org/5-reasons-why-muhammad-is-not-the-seal-of-the-prophets

So does the above verse abrogate the following?:

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

Surah 33:40

Or the Hadith?:

"The Hour will not be established until tribes of my ummah (community) unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And in my ummah there will be thirty liars, each of whom will claim to be a prophet, (but) I am the seal of the prophets, there is no prophet after me."

at-Tirmidhi. Jami' at-Tirmidhi. Kitab al-Fitan. Hadith 62

 

[Dawnofhope]

So does the above verse abrogate the following?:

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

Surah 33:40

Baha'is believe the Quran to be "as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God".

Islam, the Prophet, or His Book have not been "or are in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged" in the Baha'i writings.

Baha'u'llah refers to Muhammad as the "Apostle of God", the "Seal of the Prophets", and the "Day-star of Truth" amongst other exalted attributes. Further He states "Reflect for a while upon the behaviour of the companions of the Muhammadan Dispensation. Consider how, through the reviving breath of Muhammad, they were cleansed from the defilements of earthly vanities, were delivered from selfish desires, and were detached from all else but Him. Behold how they preceded all the peoples of the earth in attaining unto His holy Presence - the Presence of God Himself - how they renounced the world and all that is therein, and sacrificed freely and joyously their lives at the feet of that Manifestation of the All-Glorious".

Therefore there is no question for Baha'is as to the authenticity of the verse Qur'anic verse 33:40.

Our challenge, therefore, is to reconcile the Baha'i position of the continuity of divine revelation after Muhammad with the commonly understood meaning of Muhammad as the `Seal of the Prophets'.

A starting point is a rational and balanced textual analysis of the Qur'anic use of the words `Prophets' and `Seal'.

https://bahai-library.com/fananapazir_fazel_finality_islam

Or the Hadith?:

"The Hour will not be established until tribes of my ummah (community) unite with the idolaters, and until they worship idols. And in my ummah there will be thirty liars, each of whom will claim to be a prophet, (but) I am the seal of the prophets, there is no prophet after me."

at-Tirmidhi. Jami' at-Tirmidhi. Kitab al-Fitan. Hadith 62

Of course, Orthodox Muslim belief in the finality of Muhammad as prophet is as fundamental as is faith in the Oneness of God or belief in an afterlife. For many Muslims anyone who denies these truths cannot be considered a Muslim. Similarly anyone who claims to be prophet, or who claims to reveal new laws is viewed as an apostate and a liar.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, Tripitaka & Monkey etc were probably all great blokes.
I don't think any where prophets with a direct broadband connection with any "God/s".
If they existed today, I would call them Social Scientists, whose life goal is to create a better set of rules to enhance social harmony.
My Prophets of greater ranking are Aesop, Socrates, Plato, Archimedes, Pythagoras, Euclid,Galileo, Copernicus, Michelangelo, Da Vinci, De Carte, Newton, Faraday, Edison, Tesla, Mozart, Beethoven, Lorentz, Einstein, Schrodinger, Hawking, Sagan, Jobs, Kurzweil, Finkel.
Cheers

Thanks for dropping by. I think you are comparing the stars with the moon and the sun but we are all entitled to our beliefs. We may revere whoever we will and I agree your prophets are all brilliant stars. However your words diminish the worth of the greatest luminaries in the heaven of understanding.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If he was a messenger of a god, it wasn't any god I'd want to have a message from.

Thanks for dropping by with the pithy one liner! Is it not the same God for the Muslims, Christians, and Jews. He certainly knows how to take centre stage. Why would you not want a messeage from such a God and what makes the Greek gods more appealling?

 

[Danny1988]

Ah yes the prince of peace. People forget that according to evangelical interpretation of revelation, Jesus will come back and kill unbelievers. People will be killed and will die violently.

Yes sir, Christ will kill all the evil doers (non believers) when he returns. Then He will cast them into hell to be tormented forever, don't forget humans have a spirit which feels pain just the same as the physical body does.

The Prince of peace, must destroy the enemies of peace (unbelievers = enemies of peace) to bring about lasting peace. Do you get it, can you put 2 and 2 together.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yes sir, Christ will kill all the evil doers (non believers) when he returns. Then He will cast them into hell to be tormented forever, don't forget humans have a spirit which feels pain just the same as the physical body does.

The Prince of peace, must destroy the enemies of peace (unbelievers = enemies of peace) to bring about lasting peace. Do you get it, can you put 2 and 2 together.

This also includes unbelievers who may have been ignorantly convinced in Lucifer’s plot. This also includes Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Buddhists, and Taoists and primordial religionists

 

[stvdv]

Some Christians believe that in the End Christ will kill all the evil doers in a violent and horrible way

"Human is made in the image of God". The Bible clearly says this.

Ergo "in the End humans will kill all the evil doers in a violent and horrible way"

How in God's name is it possible this all happened they will ask.

It only happened because these Christians have been contemplating on a violent God/Jesus/Christ

They are the ones that have created thereby all the violence. Thought became word, became action

"Human was made in the Image of God". This is called creation.

 

[siti]

Thanks, that was the point. Nobody knows the "Full Truth" IMHO.
And when they claim so, I become a bit naughty, and ask them a simple question about myself "I only know". They always fail my test, proving they don't know the "Full Truth". Of course there are exceptions to this, the ones who have this "Omniscience" thing. I don't happen to bump into them often. So far I met one that passed all my tests

I liked your examples and explanation. Thanks. I didn't find it "poor taste...". Spam filter did catch the S in BS though, saving us from "bad smell"

Question: "She pulled on the tail instead of the ***", what word you filled in there to get it asterixed. Was it not "tit"?

Yes it was - I self-censored the rhyming words at the end of the last two lines - I was going to claim "banana skins" if anyone complained about BS.

But wait - you actually found an omniscient person? I have a few questions for her...

 

[oldbadger]

Fact 6. The crusades were commissioned by the Roman Catholic Church, which is not Christian.
fact 7. The Roman Catholic Church executed over 50 million Christian Saints

Nobody has ever or will ever be able to charge Christians with acts of terror or violence, we love our enemies and we do good to everyone. That's what our Savior teaches us to do, and all true Christians obey Him.

Hi.....
And could you please name any Churches that are Christian?
Could you tell us how you numbered the executed Christian Saints at 50 million?

Please don't accuse Christians of committing evil, I know there are many who use the name of Christ to commit evil but they are obviously not Christians. They are importers, who come as wolves in sheep's clothing.

There can't be many Christians about, I guess.