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Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?


  • Total voters
    57

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, Tripitaka & Monkey etc were probably all great blokes.
I don't think any where prophets with a direct broadband connection with any "God/s".
If they existed today, I would call them Social Scientists, whose life goal is to create a better set of rules to enhance social harmony.
My Prophets of greater ranking are Aesop, Socrates, Plato, Archimedes, Pythagoras, Euclid,Galileo, Copernicus, Michelangelo, Da Vinci, De Carte, Newton, Faraday, Edison, Tesla, Mozart, Beethoven, Lorentz, Einstein, Schrodinger, Hawking, Sagan, Jobs, Kurzweil, Finkel.
Cheers
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is called the Koran. Hadith varying in reliability to fiction.

All Hadith must be supported by the Koran in its entirity.

Peace be with you.
Please see my comments to Adrian...but to sum up, what we actually have from the 7th and 8th centuries are a handful of fragments that show general agreement with later texts but that in at least one case (the Sana'a fragment) shows quite a bit of textual variation. What that shows is that "standardization" of the text probably happened fairly early - a couple of decades or so after the Prophet's death. What it doesn't prove is that any of it was either exactly what Muhammad said or whether he really got it from God.

Apart from the Qur'an, Muslim scholars generally reject most of the "historical" and "biographical" accounts that originated in the 7th and 8th centuries - some of which depict Muhammad as excessively violent and bloodthirsty. The peace-loving Messenger of God image is not present in any document known to have existed in the first 200 years after Muhammad's first meeting with God in about 610AD. You don't have to take my word for this - but do be careful whose word you do choose to take - there's a lot of cherry pickers around.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You don't have to take my word for this - but do be careful whose word you do choose to take - there's a lot of cherry pickers around.

In the end to me that is Gods Word and love your advice as I will be careful as to who I see who has been and thus still is, a Messenger from God.

I also see God gave us adequate warning as to what is from man and What is of God. But that is my journey.

Peace be with you always.
 

Danny1988

Member
Ah, yes, Youtube, the pinnacle of scholarly information. :p


Well, one was apparently so bad he can't travel to some places because he's a hateful idiot. Wanna try again? Something with facts to back it up, like archaeology or something? Christian accounts can't be trusted because not only was their Jesus monopoly threatened, but the spice trade was profitable and they couldn't stand someone else making tons of money on it.

Historical fact: google it.


Well, except for the people walking up to it who aren't blind. :p


Then why does the NT call Satan the Father of Lies and the one who deceived Eve? None of those things are even remotely true. Thus, the NT is encouraging lying.


LOL, irony alert.


Yeah, it's like how the conquest of Canaan supposedly involved hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, who wouldn't have been able to fit in an area like that without skyscrapers and stuff. They just inflated numbers to make it seem more epic than it was.

Bad story: We had 50 soldiers with some sticks fight and kill about 40 other guys with swords.

Great story: We had 10 soldiers with sticks and the sun stopped and meteorites or something and whatever and we totally hacked the heads off maybe 10 million bad guys and we took their women and cows.

Edit:
*soldiers hold up a banner* MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! ;)
I don't believe how deceived the 1.6 billion Muslims are, to say that Islam is a religion of peace. Just look at the history of the Muslim nations, they have always been soaked in blood. They have been at war with each other and the Christian world.

ISIS claim to be proper Muslims, they say the Koran teaches that Muslims must conquer the world through war and terrorism. They say that whoever refuses to convert to Islam must be killed, you couldn't use the Bible to justify killing anybody unless it is in self defense.

You can use the Koran to justify starting a war and using terror tactics to achieve your goal. Mohammad set the example himself, he personally executed over 900 people by his own sword and he ordered the killing of countless thousands of non Muslims. Jesus taught us to love our enemy, Mohammad taught the opposite so I don't know how anyone can call Islam a religion of peace.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
you couldn't use the Bible to justify killing anybody unless it is in self defense.

The history of the Faith you have embraced does not do too well in that regard either.

Was it Christ that was responsible for all the Christains that did not turn the other cheek or chose to take life because of a perceived Heresy?

Peace be with you.
 

Danny1988

Member
The history of the Faith you have embraced does not do too well in that regard either.

Was it Christ that was responsible for all the Christains that did not turn the other cheek or chose to take life because of a perceived Heresy?

Peace be with you.
Please don't confuse true Christians (followers of Christ), with those who claim to be Christians but their actions reveal that they are just like Judas, who also claimed to be a Christian and many believed he was until he was exposed to be a Devil.

It is true that the Popes in the Vatican ordered the execution of over 50 million Christian Saints who were accused of being heretics. So please understand that true Christians follow Christ, we don't have a free will to do as we please.
We can only do as He commands us to do, and everybody knows that Jesus never taught anyone to kill so no true Christian has ever killed anyone, except in self defense.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Please don't confuse true Christians (followers of Christ), with those who claim to be Christians but their actions reveal that they are just like Judas, who also claimed to be a Christian and many believed he was until he was exposed to be a Devil.

It is true that the Popes in the Vatican ordered the execution of over 50 million Christian Saints who were accused of being heretics. So please understand that true Christians follow Christ, we don't have a free will to do as we please.
We can only do as He commands us to do, and everybody knows that Jesus never taught anyone to kill so no true Christian has ever killed anyone, except in self defense.

And a true Muslim follows Muhammad, which means they live in peace with those that offer peace. The Book of Daniel Revelation, as well as others, tell of the tumultuous times that would be around when Muhammad gave Gods Message and that the Message would clothed in sackcloth and suffer death for many a year, 1260 years comes to mind.

Peace be with you always.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Well that was amazing response.
Greetings by the way.
Peace be with you.

Hello AntonyBS,
You are new here I see. Welcome to RF
Proselytizing has been a hot topic last 4 months. I did not get the feeling you were proselytizing [and I am very allergic to proselytizing:)], you gave some good points `it's about the fight/battle within`. I agree. For me proselytizing starts when you belittle the religion [or lack of religion] of others. I did not get that feeling from you at all. You were enthousiastic about Bahai, as am I. Actually I am enthousiastic about all religions and Atheism and Humanism as long as they do not belittle others or think their faith is better AND that they believe their religion is needed for reaching "the goal of life".

But always best to ask the person himself. Do you believe "all humans can reach `the goal of life` without the need of a specific religion?". The real proselytizer will never say "YES" to that question [unless he is lying] in my experience. They will give lengthy answers though.:D

Edit: Okay I see you have answered the question already. Good to see my first feeling was right.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
I understand the point. However, like many analogies, they fall apart once you break from the assigned "meaning" and start thinking about how life actually works.

But then your reply ["unless the person is not blind":p] is a strange reply. That is why I replied "you missed the point". Seems we see "different points" in the story
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Hello AntonyBS,
You are new here I see. Welcome to RF
Proselytizing has been a hot topic last 4 months. I did not get the feeling you were proselytizing [and I am very allergic to proselytizing:)], you gave some good points `it's about the fight/battle within`. I agree. For me proselytizing starts when you belittle the religion [or lack of religion] of others. I did not get that feeling from you at all. You were enthousiastic about Bahai, as am I. Actually I am enthousiastic about all religions and Atheism and Humanism as long as they do not belittle others or think their faith is better AND that they believe their religion is needed for reaching "the goal of life".

But always best to ask the person himself. Do you believe "all humans can reach `the goal of life` without the need of a specific religion?". The real proselytizer will never say "NO" to that question [unless he is lying] in my experience. They will give lengthy answers though.:D

My personal view is I do not mind any one passionate about their Faith, I have many JW and SDA friends and it is all in the way you look at it. In the end we have had some great talks, albeit no one changes their mind.

We can all learn.

I have looked at posts on RF and really many people could be tagged with this, but it will never be me that tags them....so go for it, it mostly never works though in my experience. :)

Great meeting you.

Peace be with you and all.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
My personal view is I do not mind any one passionate about their Faith, I have many JW and SDA friends and it is all in the way you look at it. In the end we have had some great talks, albeit no one changes their mind.

We can all learn.

I have looked at posts on RF and really many people could be tagged with this, but it will never be me that tags them....so go for it, it mostly never works though in my experience. :)

Great meeting you.

Peace be with you and all.

Great meeting you also. I don't meet many people so open and non judgmental [understatement,I meet almost none]. That is refreshing. And on RF there is nothing wrong being enthusiastic about what you believe. Christians show abundantly their fondness of Bible and Jesus on RF, so we can show ours also. Enthusiasm is not proselytizing from my point of view. When others are enthusiastic about their believe, makes me only happy to read that. So your posts made me happy, including the quotes of Bahaullah. I follow my Master, I met in India called Sai Baba, who accepts everyone equally. That is why I liked the book of Bahaullah, I read the same teaching in His book.

so go for it, it mostly never works though in my experience
I don't understand this line of yours [maybe it was about the big mistake I made in my reply writing "NO" where I meant "YES":D, I corrected it now.]

May God Bless Us All
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
so go for it, it mostly never works though in my experience

That was an invitation for anyone to tell me all they want about their Faith and go for it, try to convert me, ha ha the replies you get may produce a different result than you hoped for.

Peace be to all.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
That was an invitation for anyone to tell me all they want about their Faith and go for it, try to convert me, ha ha the replies you get may produce a different result than you hoped for.
Peace be to all.
Good I asked. Didn't understand it.

That is a good attitude. And if you give the perfect reply they will never try to convert you again
Nobody will ever be able to convert me, except if they give me the choice: a)Convert + b)Die
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I was talking about another point.
I know you were - and I did not mean to be unkind - but my experience is that almost everyone who cites the parable of the blind men and the elephant are completely convinced that it is everyone else that has a limited understanding - which is kind of the point in the tail of the tale of John Godfrey Saxe's poetic retelling:

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

And that version of the moral of the tale (tale not tail this time) suggests that the entire notion of "Messengers of God" is mistaken because it demands that certain individuals have a clearer image of God than they possibly could have on account of them being humans and limited to human understanding. "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18) and anyone who claims to giving a better description than any other is surely among those who "rail on in utter ignorance" and "prate about an elephant not one of them has seen". They are, I reckon, more like old Mother Riley in the not so famous version of an old nursery rhyme:

To market, to market to buy a fat cow
To milk it, to milk it she did not know how
She pulled on the tail instead of the ***
And poor mother Riley got covered in ****

Yes I know - poor taste and all that - but the point is if we fall hook, line and sinker for the detailed descriptions of unseen things provided by fellow humans who are, in reality and of necessity, at least as blind as we are, we shouldn't be surprised if we end up wading through a pile of old BS.

And all the rational skeptics echoed a cynical amen!
 

Danny1988

Member
And a true Muslim follows Muhammad, which means they live in peace with those that offer peace. The Book of Daniel Revelation, as well as others, tell of the tumultuous times that would be around when Muhammad gave Gods Message and that the Message would clothed in sackcloth and suffer death for many a year, 1260 years comes to mind.

Peace be with you always.
Mohammad wrote the Koran and He did write that Muslims should conquer the world by the sword. He taught that if a person refuses to convert to Islam, they should be put to death. That's hardly advice on how to live in peace with your neighbors.

Today we have Islamic leaders in Iran and other Islamic States calling for a war against Israel, they say Israel must be destroyed and pushed into the sea. I can't imagine a follower of Christ calling for the annihilation of an entire country.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Mohammad wrote the Koran and He did write that Muslims should conquer the world by the sword.
Its unlikely that Muhammad wrote anything - he was, by all accounts, illiterate.

He taught that if a person refuses to convert to Islam, they should be put to death. That's hardly advice on how to live in peace with your neighbors.
Its a perfectly sensible way to ensure peace with the neighbours who are left after you have destroyed everyone who doesn't agree with you...which brings me to...

Today we have Islamic leaders in Iran and other Islamic States calling for a war against Israel, they say Israel must be destroyed and pushed into the sea. I can't imagine a follower of Christ calling for the annihilation of an entire country.
...perhaps, but isn't the point of the final battle of Armageddon the complete destruction of all Christ's enemies - i.e. everyone who doesn't believe in him? And that image of the "wicked" being trampled so that their blood runs as deep as the bridles of the horses...and doesn't Christ ride at the head of the four horsemen and slaughter people with a long sword so that his white garments are spattered with their blood? Its a pretty gory end that's prognosticated for the irredeemable non-Christians - I reckon being pushed into the sea is pretty tame by comparison. And what about the poor people of Chorazin and Bethsaida - didn't Christ himself predict a heavier penalty than was meted out to Tyre (whilst we are on pushing nations into the sea) and Sidon and Sodom and Gomorrah - that was a pretty violent end for God's enemies wouldn't you say?

Having said all that, I agree with you that Muhammad wasn't a Messenger of God - but not because he may (or may not as the case may be) have recommended the chopping off of heads - but because he simply doesn't provide any convincing evidence of having known anything that wasn't known to other human beings. He was clearly a skillful communicator (although apparently illiterate), a courageous military commander and a charismatic leader - an extraordinary and influential human being whose legacy has far surpassed that of almost all other humans. But he was - on the balance of the evidence - a human nonetheless - a human who got some things right and some wrong and stood up for what he thought was right and motivated generations to follow him even after he was long dead. That's pretty extraordinary - but certainly not unique - and certainly not proof of divine messenger status. And its also very dangerous.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Mohammad wrote the Koran and He did write that Muslims should conquer the world by the sword. He taught that if a person refuses to convert to Islam, they should be put to death. That's hardly advice on how to live in peace with your neighbors.

Today we have Islamic leaders in Iran and other Islamic States calling for a war against Israel, they say Israel must be destroyed and pushed into the sea. I can't imagine a follower of Christ calling for the annihilation of an entire country.

I am more inclined towards the peaceful Muhammad, than I am with waring men. This is the Ashtiname of Muhammad and I see this more reflects the Koran.

English Translation of the Ashtiname by Anton F. Haddad

This is a letter which was issued by Mohammed, Ibn Abdullah, the Messenger, the Prophet, the Faithful, who is sent to all the people as a trust on the part of God to all His creatures, that they may have no plea against God hereafter. Verily God is Omnipotent, the Wise. This letter is directed to the embracers of Islam, as a covenant given to the followers of Jesus the Nazarene in the East and West, the far and near, the Arabs and foreigners, the known and the unknown.

This letter contains the oath given unto them, and he who disobeys that which is therein will be considered a disbeliever and a transgressor to that whereunto he is commanded. He will be regarded as one who has corrupted the oath of God, disbelieved His Testament, rejected His Authority, despised His Religion, and made himself deserving of His Curse, whether he is a Sultan or any other believer of Islam. Whenever Christian monks, devotees and pilgrims gather together, whether in a mountain or valley, or den, or frequented place, or plain, or church, or in houses of worship, verily we are [at the] back of them and shall protect them, and their properties and their morals, by Myself, by My Friends and by My Assistants, for they are of My Subjects and under My Protection.

I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.

No one is allowed to plunder these Christians, or destroy or spoil any of their churches, or houses of worship, or take any of the things contained within these houses and bring it to the houses of Islam. And he who takes away anything therefrom, will be one who has corrupted the oath of God, and, in truth, disobeyed His Messenger.

Jizya should not be put upon their judges, monks, and those whose occupation is the worship of God; nor is any other thing to be taken from them, whether it be a fine, a tax or any unjust right. Verily I shall keep their compact, wherever they may be, in the sea or on the land, in the East or West, in the North or South, for they are under My Protection and the testament of My Safety, against all things which they abhor.

No taxes or tithes should be received from those who devote themselves to the worship of God in the mountains, or from those who cultivate the Holy Lands. No one has the right to interfere with their affairs, or bring any action against them. Verily this is for aught else and not for them; rather, in the seasons of crops, they should be given a Kadah for each Ardab of wheat (about five bushels and a half) as provision for them, and no one has the right to say to them 'this is too much', or ask them to pay any tax.

As to those who possess properties, the wealthy and merchants, the poll-tax to be taken from them must not exceed twelve drachmas a head per year (i.e. about 200 modern day US dollars).

They shall not be imposed upon by anyone to undertake a journey, or to be forced to go to wars or to carry arms; for the Muslims have to fight for them. Do no dispute or argue with them, but deal according to the verse recorded in the Quran, to wit: ‘Do not dispute or argue with the People of the Book but in that which is best’ [29:46]. Thus they will live favored and protected from everything which may offend them by the Callers to religion (Islam), wherever they may be and in any place they may dwell.

Should any Christian woman be married to a Muslim, such marriage must not take place except after her consent, and she must not be prevented from going to her church for prayer. Their churches must be honored and they must not be withheld from building churches or repairing convents.

They must not be forced to carry arms or stones; but the Muslims must protect them and defend them against others. It is positively incumbent upon every one of the follower of Islam not to contradict or disobey this oath until the Day of Resurrection and the end of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtiname_of_Muhammad

Peace be with you.
 
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