Was Pilate totally blameless for crucifying Jesus?

[Desert Snake]

There is very little historicity to any of jesus



next time you might want to be more clear when you say "its just my opinion"

The Romans also were biased in their writings, ever read secular Roman history written by Romans?

Anyways, if you want to provide not biased quotes from credible scholars, then fine, but I'm not just going to take your word for these events, and frankly, alot of these ideas in this thread either don't make sense or are purely consriracy theory.

Shalom-

 

[outhouse]

The Romans also were biased in their writings, ever read secular Roman history written by Romans?

Anyways, if you want to provide not biased quotes from credible scholars, then fine, but I'm not just going to take your word for these events, and frankly, alot of these ideas in this thread either don't make sense or are purely consriracy theory theory.

Shalom-

Bud I'm involved in a myther website with top scholars that post, and I fight for historical jesus where im a minority. These are all high profile authors and very knowledgeable people.


Im not posting biased information. Quite the contrary.


my personal feeling is FB is taking classes at either a biased institute that holds the biblical side of things and uses OLD sources and old cirriculum, and thats where the arguements are coming from. Im following the most modern scholars and anthropologist and historical jesus is a hot topic right now. Ehrmans new book is out and has the mythers in a uproar LOL and Carriers new book is out that has great insight.

Im right down the middle if anything, but conservative or biased im not


By the way, if you havnt figured it out, the best scholars argue about everything

 

[Desert Snake]

Bud I'm involved in a myther website with top scholars that post, and I fight for historical jesus where im a minority. These are all high profile authors and very knowledgeable people.


Im not posting biased information. Quite the contrary.


my personal feeling is FB is taking classes at either a biased institute that holds the biblical side of things and uses OLD sources and old cirriculum, and thats where the arguements are coming from. Im following the most modern scholars and anthropologist and historical jesus is a hot topic right now. Ehrmans new book is out and has the mythers in a uproar LOL and Carriers new book is out that has great insight.

Im right down the middle if anything, but conservative or biased im not


By the way, if you havnt figured it out, the best scholars argue about everything

I agree with some of your assertions, however on this subject the "official" Christian version of events just makes sense, IMO, and my point of the historical Jesus being cast in a negative light still stands, this would be expected from both Roman and Rabbinical writers.

 

[outhouse]

however on this subject the "official" Christian version of events just makes sense,

This is more of a historical jesus is not biblical jesus debate.

scholars will all state that they are not the same and given the context of the time, the biblical version just doesnt make sense, but improbable to the point of impossibility.

remember written decades after by not one eyewitness from a different culture, in a different area, who had different religious beliefs, who had their own agenda in creating a deity.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Historical jesus was a hard working peasant living in extreme poverty, who went from town to town to survive on dinner scraps. he probably had family members killed in the tax war in Galilee, and grew up with a hatred of all romans and their oppression that were killing his fellow jews due to starvation that led to disease.

1. Jesus' family could have been well off. There are indication that that is so.
2. He was non-violent and preached love thy enemies. He was a hippy and he didn't hate anyone.
3. Starvation wasn't wide spread in the Roman empire, especially in a province that produced food.

 

[fallingblood]

my personal feeling is FB is taking classes at either a biased institute that holds the biblical side of things and uses OLD sources and old cirriculum, and thats where the arguements are coming from. Im following the most modern scholars and anthropologist and historical jesus is a hot topic right now. Ehrmans new book is out and has the mythers in a uproar LOL and Carriers new book is out that has great insight.

Im right down the middle if anything, but conservative or biased im not


By the way, if you havnt figured it out, the best scholars argue about everything

Your personal feeling would be wrong then. I go to Concordia College in Moorhead. It is the same college Marcus Borg graduated from, and is quite a respected institute. The sources that we use are quite new, and complimented with newer scholarly research from journals, most of the articles being from the past 5 years, if not present.

The professors I have are respected in their fields, and continue to produce sound scholarship in their fields. So to try to cut down my education, my school, and my teachers, simply is rude, uninformed, and an ignorant tactic that really has no place in a rational discussion. You obviously have no clue as to what school I was going to, or the credentials of my professors. Maybe, if you put some effort into actually supporting your position, but citing all the modern scholars that you are reading (which is funny, because the only actual scholar you have cited is from over a hundred years ago, not modern in any sense), instead of making blatant and ignorant attacks, you may actually get some where.

And to say you're not biased is simply a lie, or delusion. The fact is, everyone is biased. And that bias will effect one's research. It shows in yours with the sites you link to.

 

[outhouse]

1. Jesus' family could have been well off. There are indication that that is so.
2. He was non-violent and preached love thy enemies. He was a hippy and he didn't hate anyone.
3. Starvation wasn't wide spread in the Roman empire, especially in a province that produced food.

#1 tektons families were never well off in that time period, renters that held a level well below poverty is what the anthropologist are saying.

#2 we dont know to much about what he preached because we only have a roman version, and all other literature destroyed with any opposing view.

#3 starvation was wide spread among the jews in rural Galilee who were over worked and over taxed and still failed and had to sell their children into slavery to support theirselves.

mortality rates in chilren were very very high

 

[outhouse]

Your personal feeling would be wrong then. I go to Concordia College in Moorhead. It is the same college Marcus Borg graduated from, and is quite a respected institute. The sources that we use are quite new, and complimented with newer scholarly research from journals, most of the articles being from the past 5 years, if not present.

The professors I have are respected in their fields, and continue to produce sound scholarship in their fields. So to try to cut down my education, my school, and my teachers, simply is rude, uninformed, and an ignorant tactic that really has no place in a rational discussion. You obviously have no clue as to what school I was going to, or the credentials of my professors. Maybe, if you put some effort into actually supporting your position, but citing all the modern scholars that you are reading (which is funny, because the only actual scholar you have cited is from over a hundred years ago, not modern in any sense), instead of making blatant and ignorant attacks, you may actually get some where.

And to say you're not biased is simply a lie, or delusion. The fact is, everyone is biased. And that bias will effect one's research. It shows in yours with the sites you link to.

then what happened to you ??


Ok fair enough

 

[CynthiaCypher]

#1 tektons families were never well off in that time period, renters that held a level well below poverty is what the anthropologist are saying.

#2 we dont know to much about what he preached because we only have a roman version, and all other literature destroyed with any opposing view.

#3 starvation was wide spread among the jews in rural Galilee who were over worked and over taxed and still failed and had to sell their children into slavery to support theirselves.

mortality rates in chilren were very very high

So do you actually believe that all we have is "Roman" sources?

 

[outhouse]

So do you actually believe that all we have is "Roman" sources?

Paul a roman citizen starts his hellenized version of judaism

mark writing to a roman audience from a roman provence, laid the foundation which was directed at romans.

the rest of the gospel, was built around that.


I think very little of the original jewish sources survived. Possibly Q and Thomas and some oral tradition that was heavily redacted.

Maybe a roman foundation would suit this better

 

[outhouse]

which to stay on topic is why Pilate was written in, as inoccent

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Paul a roman citizen starts his hellenized version of judaism

mark writing to a roman audience from a roman provence, laid the foundation which was directed at romans.

the rest of the gospel, was built around that.


I think very little of the original jewish sources survived. Possibly Q and Thomas and some oral tradition that was heavily redacted.

Maybe a roman foundation would suit this better

Do you realize that the sources we have that originated with the Jewish Christians pretty much confirm that Jesus did teach what he did in both the Sermons on the Mount and Plain?

 

[outhouse]

Do you realize that the sources we have that originated with the Jewish Christians pretty much confirm that Jesus did teach what he did in both the Sermons on the Mount and Plain?

yes, but it was all jumbled together.

there was probably never a sermon on the mount or plain where jesus rattled off parable after parable.


And its not all he said, it was edited for content

 

[SaintAugustine]

I suspect it was a long day for Pilate, all leaves cancelled for the garrison as the Passover week began to gear up. Now this..some guy who has upset the Sanhedrin..who want him killed. Their charge...Blasphemy. Put that don't cut nothing with Pilate...but there are....political niceties to be observed.

But he is not exactly thrilled with the political blackmail they are using. He talks to Jesus, mystical talk about God, but still, he decides to have him flogged....maybe that will satisfy the religious elite.

then a way out. He will let the crowd to decide...."behold the Man".....a severely beaten Jesus or Barabbas. To his disbelief, they choose Barabbas to be free.

Fine, the crucifiction it is..but Pilate still wants to jab back, and has posted King of the Jews posted over Jesus. The Sanhedrin doesn't dig it at alll....but Pilate says tough.

Between the Sanhedrin and Pilate a tense filled power play was being acted out..thus the famous I wash my hands of this action of Pilate.

 

[Oryonder]

I suspect it was a long day for Pilate, all leaves cancelled for the garrison as the Passover week began to gear up. Now this..some guy who has upset the Sanhedrin..who want him killed. Their charge...Blasphemy. Put that don't cut nothing with Pilate...but there are....political niceties to be observed.

But he is not exactly thrilled with the political blackmail they are using. He talks to Jesus, mystical talk about God, but still, he decides to have him flogged....maybe that will satisfy the religious elite.

then a way out. He will let the crowd to decide...."behold the Man".....a severely beaten Jesus or Barabbas. To his disbelief, they choose Barabbas to be free.

Fine, the crucifiction it is..but Pilate still wants to jab back, and has posted King of the Jews posted over Jesus. The Sanhedrin doesn't dig it at alll....but Pilate says tough.

Between the Sanhedrin and Pilate a tense filled power play was being acted out..thus the famous I wash my hands of this action of Pilate.

Jesus was definately not "innocent". It was a crime to claim one was a God (or to speak for God ) as this was an affront to the divinity/power of Ceasar.

The Roman language and legal system were both quite sophisticated enough to sort out whether Jesus was guilty or not through questioning.

If Jesus denied that he was God .. only then would Pilate have declared him innocent.

If Jesus did not deny that he was God .. Pilate would have issued the death sentence and taken full responsibility as for any other criminal act.

 

[SaintAugustine]

In an occupied land..the power of execution had been stripped from the Jews..so they went to Pilate. I dont think Pilate was exactly in love with the Sanhedrin, and probably wanted to find a way out for Jesus to just upset them. Plus he would much rather see Barrabas executed..now here was a anti Roman murdering terrorist.

 

[outhouse]

I suspect it was a long day for Pilate, all leaves cancelled for the garrison as the Passover week began to gear up. Now this..some guy who has upset the Sanhedrin..who want him killed. Their charge...Blasphemy. Put that don't cut nothing with Pilate...but there are....political niceties to be observed.

But he is not exactly thrilled with the political blackmail they are using. He talks to Jesus, mystical talk about God, but still, he decides to have him flogged....maybe that will satisfy the religious elite.

then a way out. He will let the crowd to decide...."behold the Man".....a severely beaten Jesus or Barabbas. To his disbelief, they choose Barabbas to be free.

Fine, the crucifiction it is..but Pilate still wants to jab back, and has posted King of the Jews posted over Jesus. The Sanhedrin doesn't dig it at alll....but Pilate says tough.

Between the Sanhedrin and Pilate a tense filled power play was being acted out..thus the famous I wash my hands of this action of Pilate.

you suspect wrong.


jesus may not have even had a trial


jesus charge in luke was perverting the nation and tax evasion and claiming to be the king which jesus claims is not of this earth.


BUT the reality is passover was a huge money making event for Pilate and Caiaphas, and anyone who gets in the way and trys to cause a disturbance in the temple on passover when tensions were high, would meet the cross and probably without a trial or ever meeting Pilate or Caiaphas who both would have been way to busy for the likes of a poor peasant teacher in a sea of almost 400,000 jews. jesus and his theology were invisible, but his violence in the temple messing up a huge payday for the temple in which Pilate was known for taking money, woul dbe a death sentance.

 

[outhouse]

by the way in case you havnt read Philo's take on Pilate, here is a brief passage.


Pontius Pilate


specifying in detail his venality, his violence, his thefts, his assaults, his abusive behavior, his frequent executions of untried prisoners, and his endless savage ferocity.
So, as he was a spiteful and angry person, he was in a serious dilemma; for he had neither the courage to remove what he had once set up, nor the desire to do anything which would please his subjects, but at the same time he was well aware of Tiberius' firmness on these matters.




and it might be noted if you dont know, Pilate had a severe hatred of those from Galilee

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

I want to ask our Christian members : Did God father plan to send his God son to die for the origin sin and to die on the cross ? ( so pilate was a tool to accomplish the scenario or plan then why should he be blamed ?)

 

[SaintAugustine]

you suspect wrong.


jesus may not have even had a trial


jesus charge in luke was perverting the nation and tax evasion and claiming to be the king which jesus claims is not of this earth.


BUT the reality is passover was a huge money making event for Pilate and Caiaphas, and anyone who gets in the way and trys to cause a disturbance in the temple on passover when tensions were high, would meet the cross and probably without a trial or ever meeting Pilate or Caiaphas who both would have been way to busy for the likes of a poor peasant teacher in a sea of almost 400,000 jews. jesus and his theology were invisible, but his violence in the temple messing up a huge payday for the temple in which Pilate was known for taking money, woul dbe a death sentance.

Auggie: to which charges Pilate repsonds in Luke.....Then Pilate announced to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no basis for a charge against this man.” in fact when Pilate hears he is from Galilee he initially pushes him on to Herod.


as for the tax evasion charges..now there is bold lying by the religious elite...in the very same Luke, asked if it is right to pays taxes, Jesus answers..."Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." Luke 20:25.


oh, I agree with you..Passover was a big money maker...and Jesus is clearly aware of the lack of spiritualty and the "show me the money" air of the Temple. It is the only recorded instance we have of Jesus snapping...


nor was Jesus "invisible" to the powers that be..he had entered Jerusalem with shouts of Hosann, and did some very public preaching in the Temple during passover..

37 Each day Jesus was teaching at the temple, and each evening he went out to spend the night on the hill called the Mount of Olives, 38 and all the people came early in the morning to hear him at the temple.... from Luke 21.