I am going to be frank with you, when the Gospels blame the Jews I am not impressed. When they blame "God" I am even less impressed.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Was Pilate totally blameless for crucifying Jesus?
- Thread starter Dubio
- Start date
Road Warrior
Seeking the middle path..
Perhaps if you thought about it logically instead of simply attacked the religion, you would realize that, given Jesus was sent to Earth to die for man's sins, then blame must be God's and no others.
Honestly I am not attacking the religion. But you also have to understand that I am not part of that religion. I am looking at this historically.
Logically you are right, if you take it as a given that Jesus was sent to earth by "God" for the purpose of dying then certainly "God" takes the responsibility.
But obviously all people do not take this as a given. I even know some Christians who don't take it as given that "God" sent Jesus to earth to die. You certainly can't expect me to take this as a given. And you may feel that I am being rude or aggressive because I don't take that as a given, but that is not the case.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
The authors of the gospels made it a "Jewish" issue because they were anti-Jewish. Jews didn't crucify other Jews period!
The early Christian hated the Jews and vehemently anti-Jewish so they wanted to make it seem the the Jews were mostly at fault.
It seems some of that anti-Jewish sentiment carries on to this day.
outhouse
Atheistically
I dont need sources.
#1 tithes were never collected??? Yes they were.
#2 The bible states jesus walks into town and is questioned why he doesnt pay his taxes, this statement tells you they set up a poll tax for the event.
#3 the animal sacrifices sold in the temple were sold, not given.
I dont need to list all the sources of income to prove 400,000 jews would have brought in alot of money to the bank/temple. Tithes alone brought in huge revenues.
its sad you deny common sense
or common knowledge that are very clear in scripture alone. Temple tax was never mythical.Glossary
Temple Tax
The enormous Jewish religious establishment of synagogues, the temple, Levites, and priests was supported by an elaborate system of offerings and taxes. The offerings were sometimes in kind: sheep, cattle, doves, and grain that were offered as sacrifices at the -various festivals or in fulfillment of individual vows. The first-born male of each species, including a family's first-born son, was to be given to the priests. The son could be "redeemed" for a set fee. Sometimes the offerings were of money or of valuable pieces of gold and silver work. Such offerings were put into receptacles in the .temple court known as "the treasury. "The Law required offerings to equal a tithe or a tenth of a person's gain. Understandably, the definition of what should be considered "gain" became a matter of extensive litigation and regulation. Every male who turned twenty was required to pay an annual "temple tax" of an amount equal to a half-shekel. This tax had its origins in a tax Moses levied on all males after a census, when he sought precious metals for the materials in the Tabernacle (Exod. 30.13 and38.26). Originally a shekel was a unit of weight (about 10 grams); later a coin of that weight was called a shekel.
outhouse
Atheistically
they just wont let me frubal you anymore LOL
atleast someone has done her homework
outhouse
Atheistically
temple tax??
Temple Tax Biblical Coins
At the Great Temple in Jerusalem the annual tax levied was 1/2 shekel per male. The 1/2 shekel and shekel were the only coins accepted by the temple. Some experts believe that after the coinage of Tyre was debased under Roman control, Herod the Great began to strike "Tyre" shekels in Jerusalem. These coins were of cruder fabric and style, but maintained the silver purity required to pay the temple tax. The "Jerusalem" shekels have the letters KP or KAP to the right of the eagle and dates range from PH (18/17 B.C.) to PKE (69/70 A.D.). The Greek letters KP or KAP are probably an abbreviation for KAICAP, Greek for Caesar.
Temple Tax Biblical Coins
At the Great Temple in Jerusalem the annual tax levied was 1/2 shekel per male. The 1/2 shekel and shekel were the only coins accepted by the temple. Some experts believe that after the coinage of Tyre was debased under Roman control, Herod the Great began to strike "Tyre" shekels in Jerusalem. These coins were of cruder fabric and style, but maintained the silver purity required to pay the temple tax. The "Jerusalem" shekels have the letters KP or KAP to the right of the eagle and dates range from PH (18/17 B.C.) to PKE (69/70 A.D.). The Greek letters KP or KAP are probably an abbreviation for KAICAP, Greek for Caesar.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Outhouse- I'm glad you finally imply that you have no sources. As for Temple tax, there is no evidence that it was forced to be collected at Passover, neither we're tithes. You really have nothing. And in terms of money to the Romans, you have zero.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Well except that many early Christians were actually Jews. And that even in the canonical gospels, we have one written most likely by a Jew, and two others possibly by Jews. And then there was Paul, a Jew. Seems you are trying to make things to simple.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
.......
outhouse
Atheistically
By the way YOU ARE NOT A SCHOLAR, nor a author.
so you have no right talking down to Alfred, he was a scholar and has reached a level of knowledge you are very far away from.
Moneychangers in the Temple
Alfred Edersheim's book The Temple explains how this tribute was collected. He states: "For annually, on the 1st of Adar while (the month before the Passover), proclamation was made throughout the country by messengers sent from Jerusalem of the approaching Temple tribute. On the 15th of Adar the money-changers opened stalls throughout the country to change the various coins, which Jewish residents at home or settlers abroad might bring, into the ancient money of Israel. For custom had it that nothing but the regular half-shekel of the sanctuary could be received at the treasury. On the 25th of Adar business was only transacted within the precincts of Jerusalem and of the Temple, and after that date those who had refused to pay the impost could be proceeded against at law, and their goods distrained, 2 the only exception being in favour of priests, and that 'for the sake of peace …(p. 71),"
so you have no right talking down to Alfred, he was a scholar and has reached a level of knowledge you are very far away from.
Moneychangers in the Temple
Alfred Edersheim's book The Temple explains how this tribute was collected. He states: "For annually, on the 1st of Adar while (the month before the Passover), proclamation was made throughout the country by messengers sent from Jerusalem of the approaching Temple tribute. On the 15th of Adar the money-changers opened stalls throughout the country to change the various coins, which Jewish residents at home or settlers abroad might bring, into the ancient money of Israel. For custom had it that nothing but the regular half-shekel of the sanctuary could be received at the treasury. On the 25th of Adar business was only transacted within the precincts of Jerusalem and of the Temple, and after that date those who had refused to pay the impost could be proceeded against at law, and their goods distrained, 2 the only exception being in favour of priests, and that 'for the sake of peace …(p. 71),"
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
You know very well yourself why those Pilate stories were made up. The early Christians felt they were threatened and in competition with the Jews. And they were also butt hurt about the over-all rejection they got from the Jews.
outhouse
Atheistically
Oh wait here is more dealing with passover.
Halacha-Overview - Torah.org
The Temple Tax - Shekalim
Every Jew is commanded to give half a silver shekel (the weight of at least 160 grains of barley) each year [for the support of the Temple, as it says "This shall they give, all those who are counted: half a shekel, an offering to Ha-Shem"1]; this commandment applied only when the Temple existed. The annual donation was made in the month of Adar (the twelfth month); the coins were collected in every community and sent to the Temple.a Part of the money was used to pay for the communal sacrifices, the incense and showbread, the red cow and the scapegoat, the priestly garments, the libations accompanying ownerless sacrifices, the inspection of sacrifices for blemishes, the teaching of the sacrificial laws, and scribes and criminal courts in Jerusalem. The rest was used to repair the Temple and the city; if any remained it was used to buy animal burnt-offerings.b
Halacha-Overview - Torah.org
The Temple Tax - Shekalim
Every Jew is commanded to give half a silver shekel (the weight of at least 160 grains of barley) each year [for the support of the Temple, as it says "This shall they give, all those who are counted: half a shekel, an offering to Ha-Shem"1]; this commandment applied only when the Temple existed. The annual donation was made in the month of Adar (the twelfth month); the coins were collected in every community and sent to the Temple.a Part of the money was used to pay for the communal sacrifices, the incense and showbread, the red cow and the scapegoat, the priestly garments, the libations accompanying ownerless sacrifices, the inspection of sacrifices for blemishes, the teaching of the sacrificial laws, and scribes and criminal courts in Jerusalem. The rest was used to repair the Temple and the city; if any remained it was used to buy animal burnt-offerings.b
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Outhouse- Personal attacks or statements should be left out. You just embarrass yourself when you start attacking others. As for Alfred, I have explained why he is not credible (I never said anything bad about him though). If you want to rely on sources over a hundred years old, fine. But don't expect many to tak them seriously.
outhouse
Atheistically
I cannot figure out why he is going rogue.
it is completely false that at the time Gmark was written many christians were jews.
many were romans which are all considered gentiles
It is a fact the christianity failed within judaism so it spread like fire throughout the roman empire
outhouse
Atheistically
you dont have the knowledge to state Alfred is not credible.
I also posted a jewish link stating the same thing.
keep fishing
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
So it is more complicated then you first let on. And again, many of he first Christians were Jews.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I don't really have to fish at all. You're the one who can't provide any sources that actually talk about the subject. Yes, there was a Temple Tax. According to E.P. Sanders, it was not mandatory. And none of yours sources states that it was collected at Passover.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Are these your words?:
"At the same time, the Gospels, and later writers (the farther you go from the event in time, the more this occurs), took the blame from Pilate (and Rome in general), and placed it on their rising enemy, Rabbinic Judaism. This was for a couple of reasons. After the First Jewish Revolt, it would have made little sense to demonize Rome (including Pilate) and worship an enemy of the state (Jesus). That would have painted a huge target on them. So they continually push the blame away from Pilate, and move it onto their new enemies. It was a strategic move. The Jews were already in a hard place; as they just revolted. The Christians worshipped a man killed as an enemy of the state, and they tried to play that off and say that it was the Jews who were responsible (it was an ideal group to blame it on as they just revolted, and they were attacking the Christians as well). "
outhouse
Atheistically
Hers another link from biblical archeology
The Tyrian Shekel and the Temple of Jerusalem
Every year, a Jewish man, 20 years old and older, paid a voluntary half shekel Temple tax to the Jerusalem Temple. This tax, instituted by Moses (Ex 30:11–16), was paid in either the Tyrian shekel (for himself and another person) or half-shekel (for only himself) during the Second Temple period (Mishnah Bekhoroth 8:7; Babylonian Talmud Kiddushin 11a).
The shekel, with the laureate head of Melqarth-Herakles (a pagan deity) on the obverse and an eagle (a graven image) on the reverse, averaged 14.2 gm in weight and contained at least 94 per cent silver. These coins were minted in Tyre between 126/125 BC and 19/18 BC. After the Roman government closed the Tyre mint, these coins continued to be minted at an unknown mint, probably in or near Jerusalem, from 18/17 BC until AD 69/70. The Jewish coin makers continued to strike coins with the image of Melqarth-Herakles and the eagle. This was contrary to the clear teachings of the Word of God (Ex 20:3, 4: Dt. 4:16–18; 5:8). Yet the rabbis declared that the Tyrian shekels were the only legal currency that was acceptable in the Temple (Hendin 2001:420–29; 2002:46, 47). The rabbis decided that the commandment to give the half-shekel Temple tax, with its proper weight and purity, was more important than the prohibition of who or what image was on the coin.
The Tyrian Shekel and the Temple of Jerusalem
Every year, a Jewish man, 20 years old and older, paid a voluntary half shekel Temple tax to the Jerusalem Temple. This tax, instituted by Moses (Ex 30:11–16), was paid in either the Tyrian shekel (for himself and another person) or half-shekel (for only himself) during the Second Temple period (Mishnah Bekhoroth 8:7; Babylonian Talmud Kiddushin 11a).
The shekel, with the laureate head of Melqarth-Herakles (a pagan deity) on the obverse and an eagle (a graven image) on the reverse, averaged 14.2 gm in weight and contained at least 94 per cent silver. These coins were minted in Tyre between 126/125 BC and 19/18 BC. After the Roman government closed the Tyre mint, these coins continued to be minted at an unknown mint, probably in or near Jerusalem, from 18/17 BC until AD 69/70. The Jewish coin makers continued to strike coins with the image of Melqarth-Herakles and the eagle. This was contrary to the clear teachings of the Word of God (Ex 20:3, 4: Dt. 4:16–18; 5:8). Yet the rabbis declared that the Tyrian shekels were the only legal currency that was acceptable in the Temple (Hendin 2001:420–29; 2002:46, 47). The rabbis decided that the commandment to give the half-shekel Temple tax, with its proper weight and purity, was more important than the prohibition of who or what image was on the coin.