Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[Pegg]

I think you may be in for one "hell" of a surprise!

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).

Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.... have you really considered that? Rev 21:3-4 say "death will be no more"
If death is going to be no more and death is thrown into the lake of fire with hell, then it means they are both going to be 'no more'

Hell will not exist because death will not exist and if death does not exist then it means 'everlasting life'

 

[Pegg]

What the Jehovah's Witnesses miss is that after His resurrection Jesus said, "Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Luke 24:39).

Job 19:26
"Though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God whom I shall see for myself and not another though my reins be consumed within me."

Read the account... the disciples thought they were seeing some kind of apparition... Jesus had just appeared out of thin air...the room was locked and he miraculously appeared. Thomas didnt believe it was Jesus so Jesus gave him the proof he needed to believe. He materialised into flesh. Does flesh walk through walls? Can you? Why could Jesus?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The WT will do whatever it takes to deny the deity of Jesus.

*** na p. 26 God’s Name and the “New Testament” ***
For example, consider the words of Paul to the Romans, as they appear in the Authorized Version: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13) Whose name do we have to call on to be saved? Since Jesus is often spoken of as “Lord,” and one scripture even says: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,” should we conclude that Paul was here speaking about Jesus?—Acts 16:31, Authorized Version.

No, we should not. A marginal reference to Romans 10:13 in the Authorized Version points us to Joel 2:32 in the Hebrew Scriptures. If you check that reference, you will find that Paul was actually quoting the words of Joel in his letter to the Romans; and what Joel said in the original Hebrew was: “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe.” (New World Translation) Yes, Paul meant here that we should call on the name of Jehovah. Hence, while we have to believe in Jesus, our salvation is closely linked with a proper appreciation of "God’s name". (Are you kidding me right now with this insanity?)


Act 4:11-12 (ESVST) 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is "no other name" under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."



Rom 10:8-13 (ESVST) "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture say’s "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For "everyone , who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Why would Paul say confess Jesus as Lord and you will be saved, and the same Lord is Lord of all and then say whoever calls on the name of God will be saved? He just said that whoever confesses Jesus as Lord will be saved. OPEN YOUR EYES JW's)

 

[Pegg]

The problem and main reason why JW's will die in their sins is because they reject the bodily resurrection of Yeshua.
This is what they teach: Christ was not raised in flesh, but with a spiritual body (MS, p. 426)

1 peter 3:18 'for christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

Argue with the apostle Peter.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Read the account... the disciples thought they were seeing some kind of apparition... Jesus had just appeared out of thin air...the room was locked and he miraculously appeared. Thomas didnt believe it was Jesus so Jesus gave him the proof he needed to believe. He materialised into flesh. Does flesh walk through walls? Can you? Why could Jesus?

It just amazes me how the JW's want to put Jesus in their tiny little human box, but put the word JEHOVAH on a pedestal! Jesus IS NOT a spirit just floating around.

Luk 24:36-39 (ESVST) !" 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, " Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Jesus said He WASN'T a spirit! He does not have a "human" flesh and bone body, He has a resurrected, glorified body.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Jehovah is also called mighty God, so if mighty means lesser, then JW's have a real problem.

The word translated as, mighty at Isaiah 9:6 merely means mighty as a warrior and is a word that was applied to countless numbers of human soldiers in those days.

So I am afraid you are both just spinning your wheels if you think that word is applicable only to God or to Jesus.

 

[JFish123]

Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.... have you really considered that? Rev 21:3-4 say "death will be no more"
If death is going to be no more and death is thrown into the lake of fire with hell, then it means they are both going to be 'no more'

Hell will not exist because death will not exist and if death does not exist then it means 'everlasting life'

Yeah no one will "die" as people will either be eternally in heaven or eternally in hell.

 

[JFish123]

Read the account... the disciples thought they were seeing some kind of apparition... Jesus had just appeared out of thin air...the room was locked and he miraculously appeared. Thomas didnt believe it was Jesus so Jesus gave him the proof he needed to believe. He materialised into flesh. Does flesh walk through walls? Can you? Why could Jesus?

Because he's in His resurrected body.
Acts 2:31 "he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption." Why didn't His flesh "see corruption?" Because Jesus was raised from the dead on a material fleshly body.
In the NWT we read in John 2:19-21:
"9 Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20 The Jews then said: “This temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?”
21 But he was talking about the THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY."
How does Jesus define "Temple" in John 2:19-21?
Since the "Temple" is Jesus' body, and because He said He would RAISE this "Temple" (Body), then isn't Jesus here speaking of a BODILY resurrection in John 2:19-21?
The body that is "sown" in death is the VERY SAME BODY that is raised to life (1 Corinthians 15:35-44)

 

[JFish123]

The word translated as, mighty at Isaiah 9:6 merely means mighty as a warrior and is a word that was applied to countless numbers of human soldiers in those days.

So I am afraid you are both just spinning your wheels if you think that word is applicable only to God or to Jesus.

In the very Next chapter in Isaiah, YHWY is called Mighty God as well as in Jeremiah 32:17-18.
Mighty God is translated from the Hebrew word Elohim which is a common name for God in the Old Testament. Elohim is portrayed as the Sovereign governor of the Universe.
In Isaiah 40:3 Jesus is called BOTH, YHWY (Jehovah) and Elohim in the same verse:
"A voice cries: in the wilderness prepare the way of The Lord (YHWY); make Straight in the desert a highway for our God (Elohim)." This verse was written in reference to John the Baptist preparing the way for the ministry of Jesus.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

1 peter 3:18 'for christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

Argue with the apostle Peter.

No need to argue with them, just to try to understand them.

The question is when was he made alive in the spirit? After death or while living as a human before his death?

The phrase, "made alive", does not have to mean, "resurrection". Compare: Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13

And now realize what Jesus did for us by pondering that comparison above to Philippians 2:5-11

The point of those words, "made alive", you are wasting on material thinking. Jesus had surrendered all his glory which he had beside God before the world began, and he did so to become like us bearing our guilt of sin upon himself so that he could conquer sin for us. That means Jesus allowed himself to visit our place of spiritual captivity so that upon walking victoriously up and out of that place of captivity he could carry many out of that bondage along with himself.

Of course you will try to argue that as you are so sure that you understand what you do not. Stop and think. Paul said being bound under that Old Law constituted that place of captivity. And you know this, as follows: Galatians 4:4-5 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

Jesus was made alive first, before any others who came up and out from under that Old Law. And so it is completely true that though he was put to death in the flesh for having done so, he had been made alive in the spirit, thus showing us that he could be faithful clear to the end in accord with his own words, "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

It is going to take you a moment but if you will humbly ponder it our faithful Father will not let you go long without understanding it. Then you will see that you are attaching Peter's words to the wrong thing. Then you will understand that Peter is referring to, "the answer of a good conscience toward God", that alive spiritual state we must attain to, having risen out of our bondage along with Christ as he rose out of his willing bondage to that Old Law as a human, even though he knew it would mean his being put to death in the flesh..

The entire context of that chapter of Peter ought to begin making better sense to you now.

Even at 1 Corinthians 15:45 (And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.")

Note that is talking not about what the first or the last Adam became after death. No, but it says clearly, "The first man Adam was made a living soul".

Then it contrasts that to how the last Adam was made, not how he died: "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Just as Adam was surely made a living soul long before his death, even so the last Adam was made a quickening spirit long before his death.

Where else would he get the power to resurrect?

It is the tiny things we miss seeing that we stumble over.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

In the very Next chapter in Isaiah, YHWY is called Mighty God as well as in Jeremiah 32:17-18.
Mighty God is translated from the Hebrew word Elohim which is a common name for God in the Old Testament. Elohim is portrayed as the Sovereign governor of the Universe.
In Isaiah 40:3 Jesus is called BOTH, YHWY (Jehovah) and Elohim in the same verse:
"A voice cries: in the wilderness prepare the way of The Lord (YHWY); make Straight in the desert a highway for our God (Elohim)." This verse was written in reference to John the Baptist preparing the way for the ministry of Jesus.

That is not true at Isaiah 9:6.

It is an entirely different word used at Isaiah 9:6.

Added: I had not taken time to look up the verses you cited but now that I have i see you have grabbed you comment from error.

Jeremiah 32:18 supports what i said, that the word is about being a warrior. That is what a Lord of hosts (armies) is. But so are many humans called that.

Now ask yourself, in what ways was Jesus a mighty warrior god? What did he conquer for us? What did he lead away as captives from among mankind?

I will need to explain Isaiah 40:3 in a separate post, but that is not speaking of Jesus. You just don't get it that no king would have power to do, lest that power be God's and God gave them the victory. Thus it is Jehovah's way being prepared, regardless of what king Jehovah uses to prepare that way.

When you do come to understand that you will be closer to the mind of those who were speaking.

You are trying to force it to say things exactly in the way we would say them in modern terms. And that can only lead to much missed understanding.

(Added: I did a reverse search of that H1368 and found it occurs approximately 107 times, mostly used in connection with humans. I can furnish you the list if you would like, but I would have to process it down to just the verse citations else it would be too long to post here. )

 

[JFish123]

That is not true at Isaiah 9:6.

It is an entirely different word used at Isaiah 9:6.

Added: I had not taken time to look up the verses you cited but now that I have i see you have grabbed you comment from error.

Jeremiah 32:18 supports what i said, that the word is about being a warrior. That is what a Lord of hosts (armies) is. But so are many humans called that.

Now ask yourself, in what ways was Jesus a mighty warrior god? What did he conquer for us? What did he lead away as captives from among mankind?

I will need to explain Isaiah 40:3 in a separate post, but that is not speaking of Jesus. You just don't get it that no king would have power to do, lest that power be God's and God gave them the victory. Thus it is Jehovah's way being prepared, regardless of what king Jehovah uses to prepare that way.

When you do come to understand that you will be closer to the mind of those who were speaking.

You are trying to force it to say things exactly in the way we would say them in modern terms. And that can only lead to much missed understanding.

(Added: I did a reverse search of that H1368 and found it occurs approximately 107 times, mostly used in connection with humans. I can furnish you the list if you would like, but I would have to process it down to just the verse citations else it would be too long to post here. )

Yes Gods power and Jesus is God and King so He has that power. And John the Baptist was literally talking and applying that verse from Isaiah directly and specifically to Jesus and Jesus alone as clear as day. And since that verse refers to God you understand how John as well as every writer in the New Testament thought about who Jesus was.

 

[JFish123]

1 peter 3:18 'for christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

Argue with the apostle Peter.

The problem is JW as well as other groups redefine words in symbolic meanings to justify their doctrines. For example, even though the book of Revelation clearly defines the 144,000 as Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel and male virgins, the literal meaning is redefined into a symbolism to mean 144,000 Jehovah Witnesses both male and female regardless of their virginity. This method allows the theology of the group to be incorporate the Bible.
The Watchtower has said repeatedly in its literature that it's a Prophetic Organization. So let's test it out...
The Test of a Prophet
20However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.
21And in case you should say in your heart; “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.”
Deuteronomy18:20-22
Looking back at the Test of a Prophet, we see God’s prophet must have 100% accuracy, if they don’t, God inspired word tells us we are not to be frightened, in fact we are told that the “False prophet” must die. I have studied the Watch Tower Bible and Tract society and they have made numerous false prophecies as I'm sure everyone here is aware of. God’s word requires 100% accuracy, meaning one false prophecy disqualifies the whole Watch Tower organization, but there are literally hundreds of false prophecies.
What should one conclude then about The Watchtower Society?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Yes Gods power and Jesus is God and King so He has that power. And John the Baptist was literally talking and applying that verse from Isaiah directly and specifically to Jesus and Jesus alone as clear as day. And since that verse refers to God you understand how John as well as every writer in the New Testament thought about who Jesus was.

Assuming that they like most today had no knowledge of their scriptures, then I can see how that could be true. The prophecy which Isaiah uttered did not mean Jesus the man was Jehovah. They understood that Jesus was the way to Jehovah.

"Prepare ye the way ..." John taught them that Jesus had come to help them to prepare that way to Jehovah by his modeling to them his Father's righteousness in which they should walk after Christ.

You are putting the cart ahead of the horse. Jesus was not God, he was the way to God.

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but (by, Greek dia, literally, "through") me."

 

[Mountain_Climber]

The problem is JW as well as other groups redefine words in symbolic meanings to justify their doctrines. For example, even though the book of Revelation clearly defines the 144,000 as Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel and male virgins, the literal meaning is redefined into a symbolism to mean 144,000 Jehovah Witnesses both male and female regardless of their virginity. This method allows the theology of the group to be incorporate the Bible.
The Watchtower has said repeatedly in its literature that it's a Prophetic Organization. So let's test it out...
The Test of a Prophet
20However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.
21And in case you should say in your heart; “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.”
Deuteronomy18:20-22
Looking back at the Test of a Prophet, we see God’s prophet must have 100% accuracy, if they don’t, God inspired word tells us we are not to be frightened, in fact we are told that the “False prophet” must die. I have studied the Watch Tower Bible and Tract society and they have made numerous false prophecies as I'm sure everyone here is aware of. God’s word requires 100% accuracy, meaning one false prophecy disqualifies the whole Watch Tower organization, but there are literally hundreds of false prophecies.
What should one conclude then about The Watchtower Society?

Well, I certainly agree with you that the WTB&TS has not been very humble about practicing what they preach.

On one hand they tell their members to display modesty, letting their yes mean yes, their no mean no, and and saying tomorrow this is what i will do if Jehovah permits.

For they know no man knows the day nor the hour and yet they leave off that modesty in their anxiousness. I think it to be more a matter of immodest speculation than of prophesying falsely. And that is reprehensible for spiritual leaders to do, knowing that many would be set off balance by such immodest speculation and sell all they own only to suffer destitution.

But bear in mind that God had many times to discipline Israel and it is no different with the spiritual Israel while it works out the will of the flesh from the midst of itself.

What will really show who that organization is, will be how they as an organization accept discipline concerning these obvious errors.

 

[JFish123]

 

[katiemygirl]

Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.... have you really considered that? Rev 21:3-4 say "death will be no more"
If death is going to be no more and death is thrown into the lake of fire with hell, then it means they are both going to be 'no more'

Hell will not exist because death will not exist and if death does not exist then it means 'everlasting life'

You completely ignored every one of the Scriptures about Gehenna hell, which is the Lake of Fire......a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of torments, outer darkness, sorrows, and everlasting destruction. Please explain all of those verses I posted for your consideration. I have posted them again in prayerful hope that you will carefully consider them.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).

Death will be no more......
NO ONE WILL EVER DIE! Believers will never die. Unbelievers will never die.

Do you understand what Hades is? It is the unseen world of the dead, for both good and evil. It's where Abraham and Lazarus are. It's where the rich man is. They are separated by a great chasm. This place is temporary. It is NOT the Lake of Fire, which is Gehenna hell.

Earlier in Revelation, those who were said to have a part in the first resurrection would not suffer from the second death. Here the second death is identified for the readers. It is the death which results in the total and eternal separation from God into torment and punishment which will never end. The second death is the permanent one for which there will be no relief, no resurrection and no end. Those who would inherit eternal life must be a participant in the first resurrection in order to be protected from the horrors of the second death.

The lake of fire here is the final and eternal destination of all the unjust.

A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth -And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

A place of outer darkness - "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outerdarkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 22:13).

A place of torments -"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).

A place of Sorrows - "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6).

A place of everlasting destruction - "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9).

A place where men are tormented with fire and brimstone - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"(Revelation 21:8).

A place where fire is not quenched -"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44).

A bottomless pit - "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Revelation 9:2).

A place of no rest - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoeverreceiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11).

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).

 

[katiemygirl]

Read the account... the disciples thought they were seeing some kind of apparition... Jesus had just appeared out of thin air...the room was locked and he miraculously appeared. Thomas didnt believe it was Jesus so Jesus gave him the proof he needed to believe. He materialised into flesh. Does flesh walk through walls? Can you? Why could Jesus?

Your argument is not with me. It is with Jesus.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus rose from the dead in the very same physical body in which He died. This resurrected, physical body was a glorified, spiritual body. The spiritual body is not merely "spirit." The spiritual body is the resurrected, glorified, physical body.

 

[Pegg]

Your argument is not with me. It is with Jesus.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus rose from the dead in the very same physical body in which He died. This resurrected, physical body was a glorified, spiritual body. The spiritual body is not merely "spirit." The spiritual body is the resurrected, glorified, physical body.

Why didnt the disciples recognise Jesus by his physical appearance?
John 20:14
Luke 24:15-31

 

[katiemygirl]

The word translated as, mighty at Isaiah 9:6 merely means mighty as a warrior and is a word that was applied to countless numbers of human soldiers in those days.

So I am afraid you are both just spinning your wheels if you think that word is applicable only to God or to Jesus.

I never suggested that "mighty" was applied to only Jesus and Jehovah. The JW's claim Jesus is a mighty, and therefore, a lesser god than God almighty. They are wrong!

We'll let the Scriptures, the no spin zone, speak for themselves.

Isaiah 10:21
A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.

Who is the mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?

Revelation 1:7-8 says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Who is the Almighty in Rev. 1:7-8?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Who is the everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6?

And finally, who is Immanuel in Isaiah 7:14, and what does Immanuel mean?

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.