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We can't choose to believe?

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It's verified as being a real flying saucer the same way the monitor or device in front of you now is verified as real.
That's not true. Among other things, I can touch the screen. Can't touch the flying saucer. And, there would be no way of knowing whether it was a real flying saucer just by looking at it. It could be a number of other things. This is because it is not verified objectively.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
That's not true. Among other things, I can touch the screen. Can't touch the flying saucer. And, there would be no way of knowing whether it was a real flying saucer just by looking at it. It could be a number of other things. This is because it is not verified objectively.
You can touch the flying saucer, I'll let it land. There...

So, does one sense verify another?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Straw man!! We aren't talking about "truth" in general. We are talking about verifiable evidence vs. Solitary Subjective experience.
Truth informs objectivity, so while we are talking about one, we talk about the other. Solitary individuals can have objectivity.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Nope. Subjective experience has been shown to be unreliable, conclusively. That is why eye witness testimony is so often the most unreliable and ever changing. That is why verifiable evidence is necessary for extraordinary claims. Or at least it should be. What we experience personally is tainted by our brain trying to interpret even before we experience it at all. That is a fact. Thus, personal experience shouldn't be trusted with absolute faith.
Great...except that, you are claiming to be a Christian, and Christianity relies on subjective experience, or rather, you have to trust that you are reading the correct narrative, /in any capacity/, in order to have, any actual beliefs on the religion and what it teaches. So, perhaps if you can justify your own subjective adherence to what you think Christianity is/teaches, so forth, then you would seem more credible, with your ''verifiable'' wordage.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Truth informs objectivity, so while we are talking about one, we talk about the other. Solitary individuals can have objectivity.
Can you define "objectivity" specifically, because you are losing me. I don't understand how something can be verified if there is no verification going on.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Can you define "objectivity" specifically, because you are losing me. I don't understand how something can be verified if there is no verification going on.
Something objective stands in contrast to personal feelings or opinions, it is represented by facts. Those can be personal facts.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Objectivity implies that something is verifiable because it's true.
I feel like you are confusing what is true with how we can possibly KNOW that it's true. Of course subjective experience can be true. But the question is how can it be verified without external tools. Iow, not whether something is true but how we can better KNOW it is true (aka verification).
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I feel like you are confusing what is true with how we can possibly KNOW that it's true. Of course subjective experience can be true. But the question is how can it be verified without external tools. Iow, not whether something is true but how we can better KNOW it is true (aka verification).
To know is for something to be true: a justified and TRUE belief.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Something objective stands in contrast to personal feelings or opinions, it is represented by facts. Those can be personal facts.
What is a personal fact? A fact is something that is indisputably the truth. So, considering that our personal experience is severely flawed, how can a solitary personal experience be known to be "fact" without further verification?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
To know is for something to be true: a justified and TRUE belief.
By the way, to know is not merely to think something is true that happens to be true. Knowing is to think something is true based on verifiable evidence. Anything else is belief.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
What is a personal fact? A fact is something that is indisputably the truth. So, considering that our personal experience is severely flawed, how can a solitary personal experience be known to be "fact" without further verification?
A personal fact is some fact you hold that is indisputably the truth. Even if others verify it (and if your personal experience is questionable, remember that you've personally verified all these other people exist), it's still a fact that you hold. There is nothing inherently flawed about our personal experiences. Some can be mistaken, but 'missed' takes happen. The bottom line is that we can and do hold facts.

Ok, so how can something be "justified" without further verification.
You can verify it further all you want, but that's further to the initial verification, which is objectivity. A belief is justified for simply having good reason to have it (good reason usually is just truth).

By the way, to know is not merely to think something is true that happens to be true. Knowing is to think something is true based on verifiable evidence. Anything else is belief.
To know is for something to actually be true that you also happen to justifiably think is true. All bachelors are male. So, you'd better get out there and start independently verifying that every bachelor is male (a more difficult task in this modern world). I'll just wait here.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Dang, if that's how you're defining belief than it gets even easier to choose on a whim! Talk about setting a low bar... it doesn't need to be backed with anything!

Blerg is true. There's your example. Simple, super duper easy. It gets harder if blerg has to be defined and categorized. Or if you have a particularly rigid idea of what truth is, then you can't do even the simple things. I only see stories, all of which are true in some sense or another. Which is why this is generally pretty darned easy for me... or other people who see maps of territories. People that the blog writer apparently hasn't met or denies the existence of. Oh well.
How is "blerg is true" an example of choosing to believe? If you don't define blerg, nobody can possibly believe the claim.
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
Radiation the force behind evolution and now in theory the rate of earths radiation levels should be lowering since creation slowing the rate of evolution .
Radiation pollution will ultimately force mutations not squeneced into the gene with unreliable consequence will distort science , kinda ironic .
 
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