We can't choose to believe?

[Kueid]

Yes, though what "free will" looks like to you, as you ask me that, I cannot say. I believe in free will as the agency of a conscious being.

Thanks, I was merely understanding you, no more questions from me for the time.

 

[paarsurrey]

The good beliefs are the ones with the appearance of truth. We don't "choose" what is true and what isn't.

There are different religions, and they have set of beliefs, one could choose by leaving the untruthful ones for the truthful ones.
Isn't that a choice?
Regards

 

[Draka]

There are different religions, and they have set of beliefs, one could choose by leaving the untruthful ones for the truthful ones.
Isn't that a choice?
Regards

Whether one belongs to a specific church or even claims a particular religion is a choice, but what one believes isn't. And pretty much everyone who holds a religion is that religion because it is the one that is the most "truthful" to them. And that is only determined by what the brain understands to be real or most likely to be real. And those are things we don't consciously determine, but what the brain automatically determines depending upon what information is has to go on.

 

[Willamena]

There are different religions, and they have set of beliefs, one could choose by leaving the untruthful ones for the truthful ones.
Isn't that a choice?
Regards

You don't choose their truth.

Edit: Whether believe is a choice or not is not a matter of which I believe, but that I believe.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There are different religions, and they have set of beliefs, one could choose by leaving the untruthful ones for the truthful ones.
Isn't that a choice?
Regards

Why do you think it's a choice?

For me, I only believe ideas that I've been convinced are true. I don't have a conscious choice in the matter. Do you?

 

[leibowde84]

There are different religions, and they have set of beliefs, one could choose by leaving the untruthful ones for the truthful ones.
Isn't that a choice?
Regards

Not at all. If you consider that one set is truthful and one is not, you were, by definition, convinced of the former set of beliefs. Thus, there is no choice. One believes what one considers to be true. The choice would only exist if one could choose to believe what they weren't convinced was true. Seems absurd.

 

[Draka]

There are different religions, and they have set of beliefs, one could choose by leaving the untruthful ones for the truthful ones.
Isn't that a choice?
Regards

If you think this is actually so, could you, right now, just choose that the way you currently believe is wrong and now you will just be Wiccan or perhaps follow Native American Animism? You could just choose, right now, to be anything other than what you are religiously? You can, without any convincing, choose to give up everything you believe and just adopt completely new beliefs that are in complete contradiction to everything you think you know? I'm betting you can't. Even if someone were to tell you that your beliefs are "untruthful" and another path is "truthful" you couldn't just choose to not believe something you personally hold to be truth. No matter how many times the person said "but this is the truth" you believe what you believe and cannot just choose otherwise.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

If you think this is actually so, could you, right now, just choose that the way you currently believe is wrong and now you will just be Wiccan or perhaps follow Native American Animism? You could just choose, right now, to be anything other than what you are religiously? You can, without any convincing, choose to give up everything you believe and just adopt completely new beliefs that are in complete contradiction to everything you think you know? I'm betting you can't. Even if someone were to tell you that your beliefs are "untruthful" and another path is "truthful" you couldn't just choose to not believe something you personally hold to be truth. No matter how many times the person said "but this is the truth" you believe what you believe and cannot just choose otherwise.

I've done this before...can't you?

 

[leibowde84]

I've done this before...can't you?

I could never in good conscience do this? Were you being sarcastic, or do you actually think that people can change their beliefs about reality at will?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I could never in good conscience do this? Were you being sarcastic, or do you actually think that people can change their beliefs about reality at will?

Usually I'm sardonic rather than sarcastic yet in this case since I've changed my beliefs before I'm perfectly capable of doing it again and doing it at will. You imply that you can just not in good conscience.

 

[Quintessence]

I could never in good conscience do this? Were you being sarcastic, or do you actually think that people can change their beliefs about reality at will?

Believe it or not, some of us actually can. Curiously, it's something that's built into various theories of spiritual development, such as this one. I'd wager that the folks in the "Mystical-Communal" stage don't have issues with this. For people who don't want to click the link:

"Conjunctive Faith. It is rare for people to reach this stage before mid-life. This is the point when people begin to realize the limits of logic and start to accept the paradoxes in life. They begin to see life as a mystery and often return to sacred stories and symbols but this time without being stuck in a theological box."
​

Not being stuck in a box means you can paradigm shift. Choose beliefs. Whatever you want to call it. Helps to read the brief description of the other stages for context, though. All this said, the idea of there being stages of spiritual development has its problems as well as its strengths. I find the model useful, but not useful.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Believe it or not, some of us actually can. Curiously, it's something that's built into various theories of spiritual development, such as this one. I'd wager that the folks in the "Mystical-Communal" stage don't have issues with this. For people who don't want to click the link:

"Conjunctive Faith. It is rare for people to reach this stage before mid-life. This is the point when people begin to realize the limits of logic and start to accept the paradoxes in life. They begin to see life as a mystery and often return to sacred stories and symbols but this time without being stuck in a theological box."
​

Not being stuck in a box means you can paradigm shift. Choose beliefs. Whatever you want to call it. Helps to read the brief description of the other stages for context, though. All this said, the idea of there being stages of spiritual development has its problems as well as its strengths. I find the model useful, but not useful.

See, I'm not alone in my special powers.

 

[Quintessence]

See, I'm not alone in my special powers.

I wouldn't really call it a "special power," though it's true that some schools of occult/esoteric thought work to deliberately cultivate the ability to remain open-minded or paradigm shift. Sometimes those communities like to dress things up with "special powers" language. *laughs*

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I wouldn't really call it a "special power," though it's true that some schools of occult/esoteric thought work to deliberately cultivate the ability to remain open-minded or paradigm shift. Sometimes those communities like to dress things up with "special powers" language. *laughs*

Shatter my illusions then...see if I care. None of the girls believe in my magic male member either.

 

[leibowde84]

Usually I'm sardonic rather than sarcastic yet in this case since I've changed my beliefs before I'm perfectly capable of doing it again and doing it at will. You imply that you can just not in good conscience.

Can you give an example of a belief that you have consciously adhered to even though you didn't think it was true? Obviously we aren't talking about mere possibilities of truth or being convinced to believe something that's a toss up, but believing that something is true even though you haven't been convinced in any way that it is worth believing in.

 

[leibowde84]

Believe it or not, some of us actually can. Curiously, it's something that's built into various theories of spiritual development, such as this one. I'd wager that the folks in the "Mystical-Communal" stage don't have issues with this. For people who don't want to click the link:

"Conjunctive Faith. It is rare for people to reach this stage before mid-life. This is the point when people begin to realize the limits of logic and start to accept the paradoxes in life. They begin to see life as a mystery and often return to sacred stories and symbols but this time without being stuck in a theological box."
​

Not being stuck in a box means you can paradigm shift. Choose beliefs. Whatever you want to call it. Helps to read the brief description of the other stages for context, though. All this said, the idea of there being stages of spiritual development has its problems as well as its strengths. I find the model useful, but not useful.

Belief, in this context, is taking something as truth without any verifiable evidence. Can you give an example?

 

[leibowde84]

Believe it or not, some of us actually can. Curiously, it's something that's built into various theories of spiritual development, such as this one. I'd wager that the folks in the "Mystical-Communal" stage don't have issues with this. For people who don't want to click the link:

"Conjunctive Faith. It is rare for people to reach this stage before mid-life. This is the point when people begin to realize the limits of logic and start to accept the paradoxes in life. They begin to see life as a mystery and often return to sacred stories and symbols but this time without being stuck in a theological box."
​

Not being stuck in a box means you can paradigm shift. Choose beliefs. Whatever you want to call it. Helps to read the brief description of the other stages for context, though. All this said, the idea of there being stages of spiritual development has its problems as well as its strengths. I find the model useful, but not useful.

By the way, there is a plethora of evidence for life being a mystery. So, no belief needed there.

 

[Willamena]

Believe it or not, some of us actually can. Curiously, it's something that's built into various theories of spiritual development, such as this one. I'd wager that the folks in the "Mystical-Communal" stage don't have issues with this. For people who don't want to click the link:

"Conjunctive Faith. It is rare for people to reach this stage before mid-life. This is the point when people begin to realize the limits of logic and start to accept the paradoxes in life. They begin to see life as a mystery and often return to sacred stories and symbols but this time without being stuck in a theological box."
​

Not being stuck in a box means you can paradigm shift. Choose beliefs. Whatever you want to call it. Helps to read the brief description of the other stages for context, though. All this said, the idea of there being stages of spiritual development has its problems as well as its strengths. I find the model useful, but not useful.

With growth and new information come new pictures of reality. Belief will follow truth like a compass needle.

 

[leibowde84]

With growth and new information come new pictures of reality. Belief will follow truth like a compass needle.

That supports the argument that belief is based on information, not choice.

 

[Willamena]

That supports the argument that belief is based on information, not choice.

Yes, it does.