I have read what you said. I think this is the issue. It's not really disagreement its the language and definitions, as far as I can tell.
First I think it's important to note that choosing beliefs doesn't have to be an either-or proposition. *As I've been saying elsewhere in this thread, one can hold multiple (and contradictory) things to be true or have merit. I find merit in both polytheistic and monotheistic perspectives (and also other theistic and non-theistic perspectives). *My default map is polytheism because of... well... I like the stories that come out of polytheist maps of the territory better for various reasons. But the other maps work too. There was a time in the past when I could not shift out of a classical monotheist paradigm, so I know what that feels like. I could not shift out of that because it was all I knew. *But know I know about all sorts of theologies, which makes working with any of them that much easier.
(*purple)
True. A lot of us are not saying that you cant hold multiple truths when they all hold some merit if not a lot.
For example, I hold a lot of merit, as you may already know, in some Catholic morals, Pagan, Santeria, and Buddhist. Yet, I don't consider myself a combination of these because even though I hold merit to some things within these beliefs, and I value those I hold merit, what I
base my reality on and how I see the world is not based on the titles of these beliefs but a combination of what they mean: renouncing attachments, gratitude, specific types of folk magic, and compassion (among other precepts).
In other words, we can hold multiple values as that is human nature, but in this thread, that is not what we are discussing. What you believe has merit...
and we are talking about something else entirely.
(*Red) True. A lot of us have the ability to shift to work with multiple things we hold of value. For example, I may use the map of renouncing attachments (sacrifice) in order to connect with my christian grandmothers. While I may
also use the map of Buddhist thought in the Lotus Sutra in order to get a good ideological view of interpreting the world through various precepts the Buddha taught. The type of magic I use is from Santeria and from my own personal creation; and, that two comes with its own map.
I value them all.
And my default map is not Santeria, Catholicism, and Buddhism. Its Paganism (as one of many definitions of the word). Its a relationship with the Spirits and Ancestors. I'm a spiritualist. So whatever I hold merit in those other faiths does not surpass what is my priority, the foundation these values are based on: the spirits and my ancestors. They are my foundation for which everything comes from.
Sorry, digressed.
Anyway, what we are talking about in relation to my example is your default foundation to which all your multiple beliefs are bricks upon which the stores etc of polytheism you have as a foundation for whatever various reasons you hold as your reality. Its a part of you (right?)
Can you change you? Can you become me or a chair or Draka? Can you become a Christian in your heart of hearts--not just hold it at value and use the beliefs to better yourself--but hold it as how you view reality? That would mean putting aside polytheism. You cant,
logically, hold polytheism and monotheism as truth/reality. You can adopt them as both having merit. Find them useful through visualization and imagination. However, say polytheism is 2 and 2 is 45 and monotheism is 2 and 2 is 30. If both are true--reality--basic math, how did you come to that conclusion? What did you use in your brain to defy the laws of mathematics that most mathematicians cannot see?
One can have religion without logic and hold merit to it. My point is
posters here are talking about how you find logic in multiple conflicting realities not how you find merit in multiple realities and see them as you reality--looking at how you do, not why.
(*Green) Most of us are talking about your default map. The polytheist beliefs (for lack of a better word) are your default and for various reasons, you hold these
better than other maps
and you find merit in other maps.
We talking about what you hold as your default. What you base your reality on. Not what you just hold as merit but what you hold as priority for various reasons.
As for how the shift works, I'd have to think about how to articulate that. Off the cuff, I think I'll say it has to do with challenging and shifting the underlying assumptions, or the bits taken for granted in various worldviews. For something like, say, color perception, we interpret colors based on how they appear to human eyeballs. And yet, if you know a thing or two about how color works, the actual object is anything but the color you see (well, to simply it anyway). To add another layer, the color names we use are based on human language, which are sets of symbols that can be changed as one wishes. It's similar with the math thing, really. What is the squiggle shape "2" anyway? We assume it has a particular meaning based on what we are taught. Those assumptions can be challenged and discarded to develop a new paradigm and believe something else. You can take "2+2=42" and go "well, this squiggle shape '2' can be interpreted as the human math number '21' which makes the equation follow per human math rules."
Okay. If I understand you right, I think that makes more sense. That sounds like a Zen Buddhist concept (to put a label to it so I understand it easier). For clarification, are you saying that 2 and 2 is 42 in and of itself holds no value until we put value to it? and. That when you shift from one position to another, you aren't looking at what we call right (two and two is four) and what we call wrong (two and two is forty)?
So basically, you strip the labels and meanings and are working with what all your beliefs have in common?
You are taking out human rules and meaning and seeing it fresh or blank slate?
If I am correct, then it is a language and message barrier not discrediting what you are saying.
We are saying because we have two separate equations with two separate meanings (whether true or not) and they, by its nature, contradict themselves, they cannot hold the same space in reality.
Think about this...
Take out the human language and meaning. In your mind, take two pencils, one in each hand, put it together to double it. Without labeling it, both separate pencils, doubled.
How we (most people on this thread, it seems) are seeing is you are saying that when you double the pencils you are getting both two and forty at the same time. Yes, you can hold merit in how you visualize or imagine the results. However, do you agree that both cannot be true at the same time
without human language to um, mess it up?
That's our point. Nothing more, really.
Put really simply, think outside the box. When we don't even recognize we're thinking in a box, that is when it is impossible for us to paradigm shift and choose our beliefs.
This I agree with as well. It is hard because people are indoctrinated in thinking one way or another."You have to be Pagan. You can't be Pagan, Shinto, and Hindu at the same time. Stick to one box."
A lot of us cant do that, a lot of us can.
When you think out of the box, anything can be true based on how we perceive it and want to percieve it (imagination, visualization, interpretation, whatever).
What is true or fact is not based on that. Mathematics and physics are the biggest examples I can think of. Without our putting names and meanings to it, it is what it is. One cant have gravity and non gravity at the same time. We cant double two things and make it four and the same thing/way doubled to make six. Life doesn't work that way.
I cant be in the same space you are in at the moment if you are reading this full post. You would have to move for me to sit or stand where you are now.
That is what we are saying. Thinking out of the box, holding more than one thing with merit even if they contradict, seeing multiple beliefs as true based on imagination and visualization is fine. We are not saying that it is wrong.
We are talking about facts. Some things we cannot hold true/fact because it isnt.
In regards to changing beliefs,
because truth is based on fact not imagination and interpretation, if we Know one and one is two (putting to pencils together doubles), how can you change what you
Know is true to be untrue?
How can you believe something is true/fact when it is not? '
What part of the brain do you use to change what is true (two things put together doubles) to something not true (two things put together subtracts)?
How do you come to that logic?
That is our points....not your intelligence or how you hold multiple beliefs and find merit in them. We are wondering how you hold multiple facts as true. This is
without human meaning and titles.
Kinda understand?
