We can't choose to believe?

[Quintessence]

But whether you view multiple perspectives as true, or whether you view truth as not being singular, doesn't matter with regards to whether or not you actually choose to believe them. If you accept multiple truths, then you cannot simply choose to reject those things you hold to be true - even if you can justify them from differing perspectives. Operating from multiple points of view does not mean you choose what you accept as being true, it just establishes personal truth values regarding approaches to a particular issue.

Can you explain why someone can't choose to reject things they hold to be true? I mean, don't we see this regularly?

So you can imagine a place where gravity doesn't exist, therefore you can choose to believe that gravity doesn't exist?

Let's use a metaphor. If you visit a restaurant that uses chopsticks instead of Western utensils, can you believe that those utensils don't exist? Well, they sure don't in that restaurant, and with respect to the food you're putting in your mouth right now, that's all that matters, eh?

 

[Willamena]

Can you explain why someone can't choose to reject things they hold to be true? I mean, don't we see this regularly?

Because, simply put, "rejection" means that you've found it to be wrong.

My dictionary says that "to reject" means to dismiss as inadequate, unacceptable, or faulty.

Let's use a metaphor. If you visit a restaurant that uses chopsticks instead of Western utensils, can you believe that those utensils don't exist? Well, they sure don't in that restaurant, and with respect to the food you're putting in your mouth right now, that's all that matters, eh?

That there are no forks in the restaurant is a different proposition than that there are no forks.

 

[Draka]

Let's use a metaphor. If you visit a restaurant that uses chopsticks instead of Western utensils, can you believe that those utensils don't exist? Well, they sure don't in that restaurant, and with respect to the food you're putting in your mouth right now, that's all that matters, eh?

No. I cannot believe that those utensils don't exist. I can believe that the restaurant doesn't carry them in their inventory, but that is a completely different assertion now isn't it? Again, I think you claim that entertaining an idea, using your imagination, is the same thing as actually believing something.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Can you explain why someone can't choose to reject things they hold to be true? I mean, don't we see this regularly?

Because whether or not we accept something as true isn't a matter of choice, but a matter of assessment. Can you give me an example of "choosing" to believe or disbelieve something?

Let's use a metaphor. If you visit a restaurant that uses chopsticks instead of Western utensils, can you believe that those utensils don't exist? Well, they sure don't in that restaurant, and with respect to the food you're putting in your mouth right now, that's all that matters, eh?

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you can choose to believe a proposition or not. Just because you can imagine a world without utensils doesn't mean you can choose to believe that you exist in such a world.

 

[Draka]

@Quintessence Here, let's try this. These flowers are blue and purple. Would you agree? Would you say that these flowers are blue and purple? You believe they are blue and purple, yes?

Now, can you change that belief and honestly believe they are yellow and pink now? You look at them and actually see and would define them as yellow and pink? Not imagine they could be, not wonder how they would look if they were, not think up an entire world where they would be considered such, but actually hold as true and fact that these flowers are indeed, unquestionably, without any doubt or argument, yellow and pink? You would, from now on, find every instance of these colors to actually be yellow and pink? The ocean and sky would appear yellow to you? The actual color yellow?

See, if you could really just choose to change a belief, something known as true and established within your mind, then you should be able to do so. Should be able to make your mind see yellow instead of blue and pink instead of purple. Change your whole understanding of color.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Good! You're starting to get it, perhaps?

I'm starting to understand your position, but not getting any closer to accepting it.

When was the last time you used your imagination? Have you ever been an actor? Role-played? Did you have to throw out evidence, experience, facts, and reason when doing those things?

That's entertaining a belief, not accepting a belief. Not the same thing.

 

[Milton Platt]

Beliefs and creeds are a significant part of many world religions. Some groups engage in attempts to convince various sides that they have the right beliefs, while others do not. Regardless, the act of preaching or proselytizing is predicated on the notion that we can, on some level, choose what to believe. However, to what extent is this a choice? Here's a perspective for consideration (edit for clarification - these are NOT my words, they are quoted from the *source* linked to beneath the quote):

"Whether you believe in libertarian free will or not, it is immediately obvious that what you believe in is not a choice. If you disagree – are you sure that you could simply choose out of the blue to genuinely believe in something ? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that the moon is made out of green cheese? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that 2+2=42? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that Elvis Presley was resurrected from the dead? You can´t. Try it if you don´t believe me.

Our belief-forming mechanisms operate subconsciously. You can of course change your mind on things, by reading, hearing new arguments, seeing new evidence, discussing it with others and so on – but you can´t just choose one of your beliefs, and start to genuinely believe in its negation out of the blue."
*source*​

Do you agree with this perspective? If so, why? If not, why not?

How can you believe in something that you think is false??? I don't get that.

 

[psychoslice]

So for the people who choose to believe this...

... what do you think about personal accomplishments, then? Would that phrase be an oxymoron, since no accomplishments (or deeds of infamy) could be personal? Everything you are is a mere result of system inputs, right? Hmm. Then one also has to wonder... if this is the case... how does one justify locking people up in jails? Why do we have a legal system that is predicated on the assumption of free will, and that there is a choice? Why do we have a culture that celebrates individual accomplishments, under the assumption of individual choices leading to success or failure? Hmm.

The best answer I can give you is they have no choice, the lock up system has no choice, the criminal has no choice, and you have no choice but to reply to my post also.

 

[Kueid]

Some people only sees what is in front of them with light reflecting in it. This doesn't mean they are incapable of more, but they are.
Some people sees beyond what's in front of them without light reflecting in it. This doesn't mean they are schizophrenics, but they are.

 

[Willamena]

The best answer I can give you is they have no choice, the lock up system has no choice, the criminal has no choice, and you have no choice but to reply to my post also.

The lack of choice I am talking about isn't a result of determinism, it's just a result of having a basic operating system, to use a computer analogy. Truth is an essential part of our OS, with it we structure the world. The world is composed of information formed into propositions (all the ones that are the case). Those propositions that ring true are the ones we call "believed," and those that don't are "rejected." Belief is a relation, relating us to those propositions.

 

[Quintessence]

Eh, clearly there are some language barriers here and/or I'm not communicating things correctly. I give up. Apparently, people who can paradigm shift and hold to multiple truths are less common than I thought (at least on RF).

 

[psychoslice]

The lack of choice I am talking about isn't a result of determinism, it's just a result of having a basic operating system, to use a computer analogy. Truth is an essential part of our OS, with it we structure the world. The world is composed of information formed into propositions (all the ones that are the case). Those propositions that ring true are the ones we call "believed," and those that don't are "rejected." Belief is a relation, relating us to those propositions.

But again, we choose that basesd on our programming and condtioning, we cannot exscape it.

 

[JustWondering]

Beliefs and creeds are a significant part of many world religions. Some groups engage in attempts to convince various sides that they have the right beliefs, while others do not. Regardless, the act of preaching or proselytizing is predicated on the notion that we can, on some level, choose what to believe. However, to what extent is this a choice? Here's a perspective for consideration (edit for clarification - these are NOT my words, they are quoted from the *source* linked to beneath the quote):

"Whether you believe in libertarian free will or not, it is immediately obvious that what you believe in is not a choice. If you disagree – are you sure that you could simply choose out of the blue to genuinely believe in something ? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that the moon is made out of green cheese? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that 2+2=42? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that Elvis Presley was resurrected from the dead? You can´t. Try it if you don´t believe me.

Our belief-forming mechanisms operate subconsciously. You can of course change your mind on things, by reading, hearing new arguments, seeing new evidence, discussing it with others and so on – but you can´t just choose one of your beliefs, and start to genuinely believe in its negation out of the blue."
*source*​

Do you agree with this perspective? If so, why? If not, why not?

Yes, I'm not a neuro-scientist but I've taken a couple psychology classes and watched programs about how the brain works. The brain is a physical organ wired to work a certain way.

 

[Willamena]

But again, we choose that basesd on our programming and condtioning, we cannot exscape it.

That's not choice, it's determination.

 

[psychoslice]

That's not choice, it's determination.

Call it what you will, because that is what you can only choose to call it.

 

[Willamena]

Call it what you will, because that is what you can only choose to call it.

I can choose what to call it because names are optional. There is an escape from calling it anything.

 

[Quagmire]

@Quintessence Here, let's try this. These flowers are blue and purple. Would you agree? Would you say that these flowers are blue and purple? You believe they are blue and purple, yes?

Now, can you change that belief and honestly believe they are yellow and pink now? You look at them and actually see and would define them as yellow and pink? .

Waa Laa:

 

[Draka]

Waa Laa:

View attachment 12314

It's "Voilà", and ha ha.

 

[Quagmire]

It's "Voilà", and ha ha.

I choose to believe that that was the correct spelling.

 

[Draka]

I choose to believe that that was the correct spelling.

I believe you are being a bit of a pud so I will choose to say as much.