We die because of Adam and Eve?: How crazy!

[Benoni]

That is why there is the second death. Death to death.

 

[Katzpur]

Hey, ecman. How come you're ignoring my post (#8)? :sad:

 

[Katzpur]

That is why there is the second death. Death to death.

Benoni, you have described yourself as a Christian universalist. (I am pretty much one myself, as all Latter-day Saints are.) In the context of your belief in a universal redemption, would you mind explaining what you mean by the second death.

 

[idea]

Right. I remember that. So by the parameters of the Genesis story, sin itself should have been eliminated forthright at Adam and Eve's death. There should have been no further instances and occurrences of sin, and the children should have been totally immune as they did not eat of the fruit themselves, nor had anything to do with anything involving Adam and Eves actions.There is a contradiction in the manner in which this is presented to which sin is still present and passed on nonetheless even after Adam and Eve's death.

Of course you could say that Adam and Eve later taught sin to their Children and they emulated their parents. But being they did not eat of the tree, how did they know what sin was?

We each gain a knowledge of good and evil through our own actions. A knowledge of good and evil is needed in order for all of us to progress.

 

[idea]

...it be better for your soul if you were never born.

Before we were born, our spirits existed with God, in Heaven - that's why we call Him our Heavenly Father, He is the Father of our Spirits. There was a war in heaven, before the Earth was formed, 1/3 followed Satan, we follwed God, that's why we are here. We chose to come here, to be born here - well, we almost chose. I say almost, because it is impossioble to choose something - to make an informed choice - over something that you have never experienced before. We had never experienced having a body, an earthly family, etc. etc. so it wasn't really an informed choice... some will say "if I would have only known, I would have never come, it would have been better had I never been born" - they might be right, they did not really know...

God is perfect, He refuses to get someone into something that they cannot make an informed choice on, refuses to go against agency, against our will... He could not bring anyone here against their agency.... and so.... Adam and Eve fell that man might be, they sacrificed their life for us, only a fallen being who transgresses the law of agency can bring a spirit into the world... only a fallen being can have chidren... Adam and Eve fell that man might be, that we might be born, and progress, learn, experience, grow - we owe Adam and Eve our lives. If it were not for them, we would have never been born. No pain, no gain, it's the only way to progress...

To fall, make mistakes, learn through experience, and then be redeemed after having gained wisdom, it's the only way to progress -

Mosiah3:17 no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men....

if there was an easier way, He would have taken it, but there isn't, there is only one way to progress... Adam and Eve died that we might live, through them we can learn and progress if we so choose.

 

[Benoni]

I will start with a quote from Ray Prinzing.

The Book of Revelation a lot can be said about both true and false; but I declare to you today there is nothing literal in any since of the word when it comes to the most spiritual book ever known to man. Ray Prinzing wrote the following on the subject of the second death. Not based on some religious assumption, or creed or dogma from the pages of Scripture.

Ray Prinzing:

"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe. Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, lie is destroying the first death with the second death"

end quote....

Benoni, you have described yourself as a Christian universalist. (I am pretty much one myself, as all Latter-day Saints are.) In the context of your belief in a universal redemption, would you mind explaining what you mean by the second death.

 

[Benoni]

​

Here again is a quote from Ray”: The fourth horse, the Pale Horse. "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and lo a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:7-8).

There is a special significance to be attached to the description of the fourth horseman -- he whose name is Death -- and Hell followed with him. Death and Hell are specially linked in the Revelation. And since Christ came and abolished death (II Tim. 1:10) and destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14), He now boldly proclaims: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (Rev. 1:18). And since the Christ now possesses both hell and death neither of them ride anywhere except by His authority!
Now let us UNDERSTAND! This horse is given power over the fourth part of the earth-realm, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It bespeaks of the conclusion, consummation and termination of the process. It means the final subjugation and destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. And all the instruments necessary to accomplish this are in His hands and at His command.

To kill with DEATH
There is an amazing and significant statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."! How does one kill with death?
What can this cryptic statement mean?
To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14). Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire!

"Our God is a consuming fire.
" This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire.
The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine.
Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire.
That is the end of death and hell and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire.
He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire.
How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! God's Kingdom shall rule over all and God Himself shall be All-in-all. There shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell
. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death?
How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape?
Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hell that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it!

 

[opuntia]

Adam and Eve introduced into the world the ability to die, which ability we possess in our own bodies. As for testing, we are tested constantly even every day, to see if will believe in Him or fall away for some earthly object such as drugs, fast women, easy money, etc. I am not concerned so much about what Adam and Eve did as to what I should be doing while I am here now. Am I doing what I am supposed to be doing? In this life there is such a thing as failure and by not adhering to whatever God has given for a commandment we are failing that test. So by searching for truth we may find hidden treasure (Matthew 13:44; Proverbs 25:2).

 

[outhouse]

I still find adam living longer then 900 years more unbelievable then the rest of the story

 

[Benoni]

I see the long years with the early men of creation is because in the beginning of creation man was close to God's glory, but as the years go on the further they were from the glory. No different then the life of Christ in the ages to come; its the glory.

I still find adam living longer then 900 years more unbelievable then the rest of the story

 

[Benoni]

It was not introduced by Adam and Eve "death"; it was the promise of God it they sinned they would die. Carnal man cannot believe until God has first called him; it is their nature to sin.

Adam and Eve introduced into the world the ability to die, which ability we possess in our own bodies. As for testing, we are tested constantly even every day, to see if will believe in Him or fall away for some earthly object such as drugs, fast women, easy money, etc. I am not concerned so much about what Adam and Eve did as to what I should be doing while I am here now. Am I doing what I am supposed to be doing? In this life there is such a thing as failure and by not adhering to whatever God has given for a commandment we are failing that test. So by searching for truth we may find hidden treasure (Matthew 13:44; Proverbs 25:2).

 

[laffy_taffy]

We need to die, because we need a probationary state. This life we make mistakes and learn - we die so we can have a fresh start.

Adam and Eve ate the fruit so that they could have children. They were unable to have children in their perfect form. They had a choice: either don't eat the fruit, never know good/evil, never have children.... or eat the fruit and progress, have children.

I'm glad that they chose to eat the fruit, none of us would be here if they had not.

Adam and Eve could have children from the very beginning. Remember in Genesis 1, god told them to be "fruitful and multiply"?

 

[outhouse]

I see the long years with the early men of creation is because in the beginning of creation man was close to God's glory, but as the years go on the further they were from the glory. No different then the life of Christ in the ages to come; its the glory.

please help me out with this

Im a little hard of learning and need this broken down a bit.

how did you get from man living 900+ years through glory??? is there something in the bible that explains this better?

and how does this tie into a myth [in my opinion] of jesus coming back way past when biblical prophecies say he would have come back???

jesus according to your belief is a diety "now" and adam was not. Why compare the two???????????????????????????

 

[Twilight Hue]

We each gain a knowledge of good and evil through our own actions. A knowledge of good and evil is needed in order for all of us to progress.

The only problem with that is being it was previously stated that eating the fruit of the tree of good and evil is what opens ones eyes to the knowledge of good and evil.

According to the parameters to the story, I don't get on how this transference takes place without ever eating the fruit.

If this is simply something taught or learned through one actions as you say, what was the point of the forbidden tree being there in the first place?

Adam and Eve could just as easily learned good and evil on that basis without the tree ever being there. Of course, that would then mean that sin was already present beforehand.

 

[Benoni]

Adam and Eve walked in the Garden of God and were naked; this does not mean they were not clothed with something but there covering was God's glory. It is when they sinned they lost this covering and found themselves naked.

In the Bible what we believe is our covering. Many have a religious covering garments from the Baptist garment, the Catholic garment, Atheist garment and Muslims garment; etc.

Example Joseph had a coat of many colors; if you look at the Hebrew you see it was a coat of many piesce. here a piece, there a piece is how truth is found. The OT priest could not wear wool; wool speaks of sweat or human works.

Both Adam and Jesus were God sons; one ordain to fall, another ordained to overcome.


And then we have the glorious promise that "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23).

NT:1722

en (en); a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between NT:1519 and NT:1537); "in," at, (up-) on, by, etc.:

God is not calling all people to salvation now; but each in their own order.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.


That is why we will become Kings and Priest unto to God for the remainder of all pagan people.

please help me out with this

Im a little hard of learning and need this broken down a bit.

how did you get from man living 900+ years through glory??? is there something in the bible that explains this better?

and how does this tie into a myth [in my opinion] of jesus coming back way past when biblical prophecies say he would have come back???

jesus according to your belief is a diety "now" and adam was not. Why compare the two???????????????????????????

 

[outhouse]

wow you managed to confuse me more walking around my questions.

how did adam live over 900 years ?????? ill type slower so you understand me

the rest your way to far out there bud to make any clear sense

 

[Beta]

Why didn't God give each and every one of us the same test? I would have obeyed God, from a simple logic standpoint: Since he was the one who created us, it would be wise to obey him.

The test is there for all of us ---
Do we or do we not keep God's Commandments !!!
Breaking God's Commandment Gen.2v16,17 got Adam and Eve evicted from the garden of Eden and removed from the tree of Life (eternal).
To break God's Commands is SIN 1Joh.3v4 and sin cuts off from God 1Joh.2v4; Isah.59v2. :yes:

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I still can't work out how creationists get around the incest issue. Who could Cain marry?

 

[Beta]

I still can't work out how creationists get around the incest issue. Who could Cain marry?

Obviously one of his sisters somewhere along the line.Since early man lived to a ripe old age of hundreds of years they would not have the same close relationship with their siblings we do today. Also if God ordained that 'in their time 'it would not have complicated matters from a health point to the same degree it does today when we are quite contaminated , polluted and riddled with illnesses and diseases.

 

[Nerthus]

I still can't work out how creationists get around the incest issue. Who could Cain marry?

Good point. One I would also like a good answer for.