We need to have an honest discussion about race in America

[Kooky]

Nobody is making that claim.

I do not disagree with anything you’ve said here, I’m just not gonna bury my head in the sand and pretend racial differences do not exist.

Of course they exist, it is clear that e.g. Black people are being treated very differently by US institutions and US media than e.g. White people or "Asians". But these "racial differences" are socio-political habits; there is nothing intrinsic about them.

 

[Kooky]

A good friend of mine died from HIV at 42.
He was gay and was infected with HIV from his male partner. His family and his friends suffered with him through his fight and his death. So don't tell me "being gay doesnt harm anyone".
It spreads a deadly disease.

And you are argueing that his partner infected him on purpose, or are you blaming people for suffering from an infectuous disease?

 

[Curious George]

Over the years, I’ve heard many people say that we need to have an honest discussion about race in America, but when the people who say this get the discussion, I’ve found 100% of the time (not most of the time, not even 90%, but 100% of the time) it turns out these are the very people who do not want an honest discussion about race in America. What they want is to dictate their subjective views about race to everyone else, even to the point of offending others, but they do not want others dictating their subjective views at them; even even to a point that they might find offensive.
They want to express their views to others and have others listen to them, without giving input or disagreement, and they attempt to conflate this with having an honest discussion about race. This is not a discussion, this is dictation; this is indoctrination. Now if this is what you want, fine; just just say so! Say you want to dictate your subjective views about race on to others and just have them listen; and quit calling it a desire for an honest discussion, because that it is not.
Your thoughts?

Reading through this thread it seems people are having a difficult time agreeing on not only the issues concerning race but also what is meant by race. Os this what you meant in your OP?

What do you find people most often want to dictate when they say that we need to have an honest discussion about race? In what ways are people offensive?

 

[Kfox]

Actually, I think we just differ in perspectives and applications. You see it as race, I see it as just differences in appearance. Like green eyes, blue eyes, brown eyes, hazel eyes... they are all eyes.

You don't really have "appearance divides" but what you do have is racial divides.

No; I have both; racial AND appearance divides. So if you were putting out an APB on 2 people; both same height, and weight, but one is what we call black, and the other white how would you describe them?

 

[Kfox]

Of course they exist, it is clear that e.g. Black people are being treated very differently by US institutions and US media than e.g. White people or "Asians".

Which institutions do you know of that are doing this?

But these "racial differences" are socio-political habits; there is nothing intrinsic about them.

There doesn't have to be, just recognize they exist.

 

[Kfox]

Reading through this thread it seems people are having a difficult time agreeing on not only the issues concerning race but also what is meant by race. Os this what you meant in your OP?

No. When I started the thread, I was hoping to have a discussion with the type of activists who are as described in the OP, but apparently no such type are on this forum (or if they are they are choosing to remain silent) so the topic sorta moved away from the original idea to what it has become now.

What do you find people most often want to dictate when they say that we need to have an honest discussion about race? In what ways are people offensive?

*The idea that all white people are racist, and those who deny their racism are in denial
*The idea that black people cannot be racist because they lack power (as if black people don’t have power)
*The idea that we should not strive to live in a color blind society
From what I’ve seen; these are some of the ideas many activists will proclaim, and they often will not tolerate an opposing point of view.

 

[Kooky]

Which institutions do you know of that are doing this?

I posted a link to issues Black people have with mental health diagnoses earlier.
The police is also usually a good bet when it comes to racial prejudice; police officers are generally afforded an enormous leeway in how they enforce laws and thus their racial prejudices tend to have a rather significant (and often very detrimental) impact on people's lives.
And then there are, of course, inequalities due to economic status that often coincide with racist attitudes, such as inequal access to education and inequal treatment by educators, issues with bureaucracies etc. which I believe are also rather commonly reported in the US.

(They are also commonly reported in other countries, of course, but those bigotries of course work slightly differently than in the US, as I have already alluded in my response to @Rival a few pages above)

There doesn't have to be, just recognize they exist.

I think the issue a lot of people have is that when one says that "races are real", they tend to assume that means they have any particular basis in scientific fact or biology. I've often seen people insinuate that socially constructed reality is not "real", when that is of course nonsense.

Personally, I consider it more important to find out whether it can be changed - which I believe we can.

 

[Kooky]

No. When I started the thread, I was hoping to have a discussion with the type of activists who are as described in the OP, but apparently no such type are on this forum (or if they are they are choosing to remain silent) so the topic sorta moved away from the original idea to what it has become now.

*The idea that all white people are racist, and those who deny their racism are in denial
*The idea that black people cannot be racist because they lack power (as if black people don’t have power)
*The idea that we should not strive to live in a color blind society
From what I’ve seen; these are some of the ideas many activists will proclaim, and they often will not tolerate an opposing point of view.

Are you tolerating their opposing point of view?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No. When I started the thread, I was hoping to have a discussion with the type of activists who are as described in the OP, but apparently no such type are on this forum (or if they are they are choosing to remain silent) so the topic sorta moved away from the original idea to what it has become now.

*The idea that all white people are racist, and those who deny their racism are in denial
*The idea that black people cannot be racist because they lack power (as if black people don’t have power)
*The idea that we should not strive to live in a color blind society
From what I’ve seen; these are some of the ideas many activists will proclaim, and they often will not tolerate an opposing point of view.

There aren't even that many people who actually adhere to such an ideology. And that's the general population. Here they tend to not stick around because even most Left Wingers here do not accept those ideas.

 

[Kenny]

No; I have both; racial AND appearance divides. So if you were putting out an APB on 2 people; both same height, and weight, but one is what we call black, and the other white how would you describe them?

I think you moving the goal post. Black is not a race... it is a color.

 

[Kfox]

I posted a link to issues Black people have with mental health diagnoses earlier.

What post number was this? I’ve must have missed that one

The police is also usually a good bet when it comes to racial prejudice; police officers are generally afforded an enormous leeway in how they enforce laws and thus their racial prejudices tend to have a rather significant (and often very detrimental) impact on people's lives.

If racist cops are the problem, that is an individual racist issue, not an institutional one; especially if there are rules in the department against racism.
BTW in many inner cities, there is an effort to have the police force look like the communities they patrol; this means people in black neighborhoods are more likely to deal with black police officers. Do we assume when black people become police officers they become racist against their own people?

And then there are, of course, inequalities due to economic status that often coincide with racist attitudes, such as inequal access to education and inequal treatment by educators, issues with bureaucracies etc. which I believe are also rather commonly reported in the US.

That is more of an economic issue; not an institutional issue.

 

[Kfox]

.

 

[Kfox]

Are you tolerating their opposing point of view?

Thus far I haven't had to.

 

[Kfox]

There aren't even that many people who actually adhere to such an ideology. And that's the general population. Here they tend to not stick around because even most Left Wingers here do not accept those ideas.

I am from the Seattle area; (the place where they actually allowed the CHAZ zone to exist). In this area there are too many people with those views; and I’ve talked with many of them and have quite a bit of experience with how they debate. I know the rest of the country is not like where I live, I’m just having conversations based on some of the experiences I’ve had with people who think this way

 

[Kfox]

I think you moving the goal post. Black is not a race... it is a color.

It's both.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am from the Seattle area; (the place where they actually allowed the CHAZ zone to exist). In this area there are too many people with those views; and I’ve talked with many of them and have quite a bit of experience with how they debate. I know the rest of the country is not like where I live, I’m just having conversations based on some of the experiences I’ve had with people who think this way

I live in California and even here it's rare for me to encounter that many of them. Even in LA, where Bill Maher has his majority Left audience who has booed the PC stuff.
There was a study done a few years ago. It found nobody likes the PC stuff except for the PC SJW crowd, which is a very small percentage of the population.

 

[Kfox]

I live in California and even here it's rare for me to encounter that many of them. Even in LA, where Bill Maher has his majority Left audience who has booed the PC stuff.
There was a study done a few years ago. It found nobody likes the PC stuff except for the PC SJW crowd, which is a very small percentage of the population.

Below is a list of major cities that have defunded their police departments. I noticed you mentioned LA; they are on that list as well, and their crime is up as a result. It doesn't matter if the people of the city hate it, if the City Council agrees with this madness, it happens.
List of Cities Defunding the Police | Surge in Crime

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Below is a list of major cities that have defunded their police departments. I noticed you mentioned LA; they are on that list as well, and their crime is up as a result. It doesn't matter if the people of the city hate it, if the City Council agrees with this madness, it happens.
List of Cities Defunding the Police | Surge in Crime

That's not a PC issue. Do try to stay on subject.

 

[We Never Know]

Below is a list of major cities that have defunded their police departments. I noticed you mentioned LA; they are on that list as well, and their crime is up as a result. It doesn't matter if the people of the city hate it, if the City Council agrees with this madness, it happens.
List of Cities Defunding the Police | Surge in Crime

Many have reversed that decision.

U.S cities reverse 'defunding' police department amid rising crime

 

[We Never Know]

I live in California and even here it's rare for me to encounter that many of them. Even in LA, where Bill Maher has his majority Left audience who has booed the PC stuff.
There was a study done a few years ago. It found nobody likes the PC stuff except for the PC SJW crowd, which is a very small percentage of the population.

What/who are you referring to with "PC SJW crowd"