What are Hamas' leaders thinking?

[Estro Felino]

Considering that even his own people could barely tolerate the thought of his existence at the end, maybe we should not call him that?

(There are other, far better reasons too, but this is the most difficult to even attempt to counter IMO)

Gaddafi was 10,000 better than Obama and Hillary.

Do you know why?
Well...Trump said why.

 

[LuisDantas]

Gaddafi was 10,000 better than Obama and Hillary.

Do you know why?
Well...Trump said why.

I tried real hard not to ask whether you do stand-up.

I failed. Gloriously!

 

[Revoltingest]

Israel has every right to defend it's citizens....

No argument here.

....I am sure if the same thing happened to the US, you'd be singing a different tune.

You must be tone deaf.
Not singing the tune you believe.

Israeli citizens were massacred, babies beheaded, families shot in front of each other, by inhuman trash.

And the Israeli military has slaughtered even more Palestinian
civilians in retribution. Israelis have now even assinated them
during their funeral processions (per NPR today).
Why is horror committed against Israelis so very heinous,
yet Israeli murder of an even greater number of Palestinians
to be excused?
And to shine it on, Israel now denies them food, water,
electricity, & the ability to escape the war zone.

There can be no mercy for Hamas. Flushing them out of those tunnels wont be easy, however there are ways and means. In such confined spaces, certain types of weaponry, will be very effective.

If you mean by "effective", that you
include killing more civilians than soldiers.

I absolutely wish that every Hamas fighter is either killed or captured, there can be no peace until they are neutralized.

I know you do.
But Israel's brutal oppression & killing will
only keep the conflict alive in perpetuity.

 

[Estro Felino]

That little experiment was what led to the ascension of the Iranian Islamic theocracy, so I have to go with "almost certainly not".

Unless you have some convincing reason to believe that it would go differently, I suppose.

Because now there would be Reza Ciro Pahlavi as monarch.
And by now women would be free to do whatever they like, homosexuals would be free to do whatever they like, and above all, Iran wouldn't be Israel's number one enemy.

 

[LuisDantas]

Because now there would be Reza Cyrus Pahlavi as monarch.
And by now women would be free to do whatever they like, homosexuals would be free to do whatever they like, and above all, Iran wouldn't be Israel's number one enemy.

Seriously, are you saying that now it's better?

By no means.

I am however saying that insisting on what is known to fail is... far less than wise.

Also: I seem to remember that you are big on national authonomy. Are you truly demanding a puppet state in Iran?

And there is the not-insignificant matter of how the Shas treated Iran's people.

 

[Estro Felino]

By no means.

I am however saying that insisting on what is known to fail is... far less than wise.

Between two evils, one chooses the lesser of two evils...
not the worst of the worst,

 

[Revoltingest]

That doesn't mean its not true, IMOP you have simply been seduced by the rationalization of Neo Islamic fundamentalism.

Bless your heart.

 

[LuisDantas]

Between two evils, one chooses the lesser of two evils...
not the worst of the worst,

Come on, Luis. Really?

Back ten, women were not veiled. It was a very open society, despite the economic problems.

Sorry, I just can't convince myself that you even believe in what you are saying. Please see my revised post #194.

 

[Revoltingest]

What is your take on why Hamas exists and why it can exist and have so much support in Gaza?

Oppressed people tend to chafe at boots on necks.
Lacking the police, military, & legal power of the oppressors,
they fight back in ways available to them, eg, guerilla war,
terrorism, strikes, civil disobedience.
PLO & Hamas were born of this. No one else fights to
liberate Palestinians from Israel's vise grip.

I have seen (mostly Brazilian) claims that somehow Hamas isn't representative of Gaza Palestinians. That may or may not be true, but even if true it is a claim that brings more questions than it answers.

I'm sure many Palestinians in Gaza would rather no
have Hamas wage war on their behalf...the death &
suffering have yet to advance their cause. Nay it
only inspires Israel to put more boots on necks.

 

[Estro Felino]

Also: I seem to remember that you are big on national autonomy. Are you truly demanding a puppet state in Iran?

And there is the not-insignificant matter of how the Shas treated Iran's people.

Bravo. You said what I wanted you to say.
National autonomy.

But history says that the shah tried to nationalize the oil, and some ravenous wolves wanted to have the 85% first and the 50% then of the oil that belongs to the Iranian citizens.

So...if those greedy robbers (you must call people by their names) hadn't tried to steal the oil, the shah would have nationalized it all, and he would have ruled until now, also thanks to Mossadeq.

So...you have to blame those financial powers who made that naval blockade against Iran.
Those financial powers sold out Israelis.

Because it's because of them that there was the communist revolution of the ayatollahs in the seventies.

If the oil had been nationalized in the fifties or sixties, there wouldn't have been any fundamentalist revolution and there wouldn't be any regime waging war against Israel.

So those ravenous wolves failed Israel out of infinite greed.

 

[icehorse]

You mean rather than something of value?

Let me suggest that low-level noise from people who don't know what they don't know is less than helpful. The idea that "analysts struggle to understand" but you've managed to connect the dots seems a little silly.

Those analysts are tightly constrained to think only certain ways and say only certain things. You should already know that.

 

[LuisDantas]

Bravo. You said what I wanted you to say.
National autonomy.

But history says that the shah tried to nationalize the oil, and some ravenous wolves, greedy thieves wanted to rob the 85% first and the 50% then of the oil that belongs to the Iranian citizens.

So...if those greedy robbers (you must call people by their names) hadn't tried to steal the oil, the shah would have nationalized it all, and he would have ruled until now, also thanks to Mossadeq.

So...you have to blame those financial powers who made that naval blockade against Iran.
Those financial powers sold out Israelis.

Because it's because of them that there was the communist revolution of the ayatollahs in the seventies.

If the oil had been nationalized in the fifties or sixties, there wouldn't have been any fundamentalist revolution and there wouldn't be any regime waging war against Israel.

So those ravenous wolves sold out Israel out of infinite greed.

... are you even trying to make sense?

 

[Estro Felino]

... are you even trying to make sense?

I am.
If you understand Italian, I can say it in Italian, too.
The meaning will not change.

I am uncontradictible, I know.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Those analysts are tightly constrained to think only certain ways and say only certain things.

All of them? Those dirty stinkers!
Thanks for clearing that up. It's always good to hear from folks whose thinking is clearly unconstrained.

 

[icehorse]

All of them? Those dirty stinkers!
Thanks for clearing that up. It's always good to hear from folks whose thinking is clearly unconstrained.

Yeah pretty much. E.g., tell me which of them is NOT constrained by the myth of endless economic growth?

 

[Little Dragon]

Why is horror committed against Israelis so very heinous,
yet Israeli murder an even greater number of Palestinians
to be excused?

Again, I do not claim that Israel is innocent of wrongdoing. This argument you keep throwing in my face, is not only misrepresentation it is very untrue.

I do not excuse either Israeli leadership for their part in all this, nor do I excuse Hamas.

However they can't be treated with the same remedies. Israel is a democratic ally of the west and the US in particular, a tiny slice of land, surrounded by hostile undemocratic states. They deserve our support.

In this round of violence, which Hamas instigated, Hamas murdered innocents in cold blood, for no justifiable reason.
If Israel responds with aggression, then what did anyone expect?

It's easy to sit in judgement of another nation, like Israel, and portray it as a pariah, when your own government isn't exactly the most holistic and law abiding either, not exactly a champion of peace and tolerance itself. If we're going to judge Israel, and take action against her for her excesses and crimes against the Palestinian people, then petition your senator to demand that the US stops vetoing UN resolutions made against Israel!
Then, expect the US to be next in the dock...

 

[Little Dragon]

Are you kidding?
Are you saying that the regime of today is better?
Have you seen what happens to women, there?

I sincerely hope you're joking.

Things are probably worse now, sure. They were not great back then either. As I said.

 

[LuisDantas]

Oppressed people tend to chafe at boots on necks.
Lacking the police, military, & legal power of the oppressors,
they fight back in ways available to them, eg, guerilla war,
terrorism, strikes, civil disobedience.
PLO & Hamas was born of this. No one else fights to
liberate Palestinians from Israel's vise grip.

I hope you realize how deep the implications go if you are correct in your reading.

For what it is worth, I largely agree, but I also think that this is a biased view.

I'm sure many Palestinians in Gaza would rather no
have Hamas wage war on their behalf...the death &
suffering have yet to advance their cause. Nay it
only inspires Israel to put more boots on necks.

Indeed. I am very curious indeed about the mindsets of Palestinians.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am.
If you understand Italian, I can say it in Italian, too.
The meaning will not change.

I am uncontradictible, I know.

One can't contradict what is way detached from reality, I suppose.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In this round of violence, which Hamas instigated, Hamas murdered innocents in cold blood, for no justifiable reason.
If Israel responds with aggression, then what did anyone expect?

Do you not see at least a little incongruity in these statements?

Violence inflicted against Israeli citizens = "no justifiable reason."
Violence inflicted against Palestinian citizens = "what did anyone expect?"

I'm not saying Hamas are any kind of freedom fighters, or that these incursions and killings of innocent civilians committed by Hamas are in any way representative of a Palestinian freedom movement against Israel (I think people who equate Hamas' actions with Palestinian resistance are doing a disservice to the Palestinian and Israeli people, and giving both Hamas and the Israeli far-right exactly what they want). But it does strike me as odd when the senseless and indiscriminate killing of innocent people allegedly justified as a retaliatory strike against 70 years of occupation, settler colonialism and active oppression by the Israeli government is simply described as having "no justifiable reason", rather than being seen as an inevitable consequence of Israeli foreign policy that has been oppressing and murdering Palestinian people on an unimaginable scale for decades.

Meanwhile, Israel responding to these attacks with war crimes is seen as somehow inevitable and expected, if not reasonably justified under the circumstances.

My point is, "what did anyone expect" is obviously a very selectively applied standard. I can only say to that, that after 70 years of illegal occupation, forced relocation, thousands of deaths, war crimes and denial of basic rights, when an extremist militant group with a penchant for indiscriminate violence against civilians gains power and attacks you under the banner of some form of desperate resistance movement... What did anyone expect?