What are Hamas' leaders thinking?

[Little Dragon]

He's explicitly stating that he would commit war crimes against the civilians of Palestine i

No I did not explicitly or otherwise state that. **mod edit** Your disgusting accusations are pathetic.

 

[Little Dragon]

And don't pretend you care about wanton slaughter when you just shrugged off Israel cutting off food and power to 2.3 million people.

I shrugged off yet another attempt by you to demonise me and misrepresent me. **mod edit** I should know better than to continue biting your bait.

Congratulations, for being the first person here, to genuinely insult me properly. Good job! You actually rattled me. Doesn't happen often. Noice...

 

[Little Dragon]

It is rather circular too, but I'm sure Hamas must have known what the Israeli response would be this time. I've not seen any interviews of Palestinians expressing sadness over the Israeli deaths.

In fact Palestinians were seen spitting on the kidnapped as they were dragged and paraded through Gaza's streets, I saw the footage myself. They didn't seem too concerned. They seemed quite pleased in fact.

As for this whole argument, and the attacks that are levied against me.

I will re iterate.

1) If Hamas murdered hundreds of my fellow citizens, then I would not give a flying **** about their (Hamas fighters) human rights or even about what had happened between us in the past, my only concern would be preventing it happening again. My people, my priority and my duty.
2) If they Hamas fled into their city/stronghold, I too would send troops after them, if non combatants get killed in the crossfire, then that is unfortunate, but it would not be my primary objective to ensure their safety, I would however expect the soldiers to carry out their duty professionally, with precision restraint and skill.
3) I am not a pacifist, I believe war is often necessary to protect the nation and it's interests. A fact of reality.
4) Anyone who thinks Israel has a higher duty of care than any other nation, is a racist.
5) Hamas is not a representative government, they are an outlawed terrorist organisation, by my nation and others.
6) As for cutting off food energy and water, that is not a measure I imagine I would take, since unless it cripples Hamas, I don't see the point. Causing yet more suffering, is not my game. Destroying Hamas, would be the only objective.

 

[Kenny]

.That's not remotely what I said. You seem to be overreacting to my post based on something that's not in it.

It seems like a natural deduction to me... or an effort to sidetrack what the poster meant.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It seems like a natural deduction to me...

Then it's better to ask others what their opinions are before drawing conclusions that are not in the words at all, because what seems like a "natural deduction" to you might not necessarily reflect others' positions.

In this case, the question in the OP specifically mentioned an Islamic doctrine in relation to Hamas' attack, and my view is that religion is only one factor out of many in the conflict. Therefore, it seems to me an oversimplification to focus on it as if it were the main or only factor.

That has nothing to do with the question you asked, nor does it imply that heinous acts against children and other civilians shouldn't be taken into consideration.

or an effort to sidetrack what the poster meant.

No, I was addressing the question presented in the OP. See above.

 

[England my lionheart]

Israel has always the right of a Palestinian state to exist.
They treat Gaza as an open air prison.
This is Israel "talking peace".
Talking the talk.
Not walking the walk.

Hamas walk the walk on behalf of the Palestinians and whether they like it or not,hamas don’t give a crap for Palestinians,they’re only good as human shields to them,Hamas have at least been honest about their goal which is the annihilation of Israel and Jews based on a man flying on a donkey to Jerusalem,good luck with making peace with then.

 

[Kenny]

I'm trying to imagine the discussions that occurred in Hamas HQ as they were planning this attack...

What goals did they have in mind?

Here's one of my theories, but I'd like to hear other theories, so maybe post your theory before hitting the spoiler button?

Spoiler: Hamas' goals

I think maybe Islamic martyrdom might have been one of the motivators?

Then it's better to ask others what their opinions are before drawing conclusions that are not in the words at all, because what seems like a "natural deduction" to you might not necessarily reflect others' positions.

In this case, the question in the OP specifically mentioned an Islamic doctrine in relation to Hamas' attack, and my view is that religion is only one factor out of many in the conflict. Therefore, it seems to me an oversimplification to focus on it as if it were the main or only factor.

That has nothing to do with the question you asked, nor does it imply that heinous acts against children and other civilians shouldn't be taken into consideration.



No, I was addressing the question presented in the OP. See above.

I think you may have expanded more that what the OP asked...

What goals did they have; what discussion... and then an open question "what theory".

My thoughts are that it is utterly unhelpful to try to reduce a complicated decades-long conflict to a blame game about religions or overlook the troubled geopolitical and socioeconomic history of the region to zoom in on just one factor out of many.

Ideologues could at least try to wait for the spilled civilian blood to dry before using the conflict as a springboard to advance their biases and preferred narratives.

I don't see where you really addressed any of the particulars.

I agree that it is quite complicated - but whatever reasoning may have gone on... beheading babies?

Here I would have to ask as @icehorse asked... "I'm trying to imagine the discussions that occurred in Hamas HQ as they were planning this attack...What goals did they have in mind?"

 

[Little Dragon]

Hamas have at least been honest about their goal which is the annihilation of Israel and Jews based on a man flying on a donkey to Jerusalem,good luck with making peace with then.

Not going to happen, unless you offer them the whole of Israel, emptied of all Jews Christians Agnostics and Atheists. Especially Jews.
There can be no negotiation with extremists and terrorists. No peace. Only war.

 

[Bthoth]

Yes because Hamas is supported by Iran. Killing 25 Americans was a disastrous misstep by Hamas/Iran!

Even the US military intelligence spoke that there is NO evidence of any link between iran and the Hamas terrorism of the week.

What did that comment even mean, except to express a lack of credibility?

 

[England my lionheart]

Not going to happen, unless you offer them the whole of Israel, emptied of all Jews Christians Agnostics and Atheists. Especially Jews.
There can be no negotiation with extremists and terrorists. No peace. Only war.

Unfortunately this is true,since Al husseini who after taking part in the Armenian genocide became the grand mufti of Jerusalem and made friends with the Muslim brotherhood of Egypt,it’s all been downhill since.

Mein Kampf by Hitler was popular in the Middle East,Husseini in WW2 moved to Berlin as a guest of Hitler and even had an SS Hanjar division,since then it’s been impossible for peace through negotiations.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think you may have expanded more that what the OP asked...

What goals did they have; what discussion... and then an open question "what theory".



I don't see where you really addressed any of the particulars.

I'm intentionally avoiding detailed commentary on open questions that could involve speculation and purely subjective opinions. I think it is more respectful and thoughtful for a regular observer on a forum, like most of us here, to refrain from engaging in such commentary at least until the war is over.

I agree that it is quite complicated - but whatever reasoning may have gone on... beheading babies?

Extremist groups are not ethical or reasonable actors, which is another reason I think trying to blame any given religion for their heinous actions is misplaced. The vast majority of Muslims and other religious people don't support or engage in such acts, which means the actions of extremists are specific to a problem with the extremists rather than the religion itself.

Here I would have to ask as @icehorse asked... "I'm trying to imagine the discussions that occurred in Hamas HQ as they were planning this attack...What goals did they have in mind?"

This goes back to my previous points in this post:

1) Extremist groups don't have the same mentality as ethical and reasonable actors, and

2) Posting on a forum or another discussion platform during a war as a regular observer to speculate about what an extremist group was thinking in its HQ before committing an attack on civilians seems to me ill-timed and not the most respectful thing to do at the moment. It would effectively be treating a war with many civilian lives at stake as some thought experiment or mental exercise.

 

[Kenny]

I'm intentionally avoiding detailed commentary on open questions that could involve speculation and purely subjective opinions. I think it is more respectful and thoughtful for a regular observer on a forum, like most of us here, to refrain from engaging in such commentary at least until the war is over.



Extremist groups are not ethical or reasonable actors, which is another reason I think trying to blame any given religion for their heinous actions is misplaced. The vast majority of Muslims and other religious people don't support or engage in such acts, which means the actions of extremists are specific to a problem with the extremists rather than the religion itself.



This goes back to my previous points in this post:

1) Extremist groups don't have the same mentality as ethical and reasonable actors, and

2) Posting on a forum or another discussion platform during a war as a regular observer to speculate about what an extremist group was thinking in its HQ before committing an attack on civilians seems to me ill-timed and not the most respectful thing to do at the moment. It would effectively be treating a war with many civilian lives at stake as some thought experiment or mental exercise.

got it!

 

[Copernicus]

Maybe it is just me, but I think that timing-based arguments are on a shaky ground these days. We are all just too high-strung far too often, because there are so many worrisome situations happening at the same time and lasting for so long.
...

Look, there's a lot more to my conspiracy speculation than just timing. Iranian Shias are at loggerheads with Saudi Sunnis in the region, and Israel has been making headway in normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia and other regional Arab nations. The inevitable bloody retaliation on Gaza by Israel is likely to call a halt to it. (For example, El Al recently won overflight privileges with Saudi Arabia.) Because Russia is helping to prop up the Alawite Shia Assad regime in its war against Sunni insurgents, that makes Russia a natural ally with Iran. Not to mention the fact that they share a mutual enemy--the US. The timing issue would likely be that Russia could use the Hamas attack to keep its sabotage out of the headlines and have the advantage of distracting the US from its support for Ukraine just before winter sets in. All it would take would be foreknowledge of when the Hamas attack would begin. Russia, with its military naval base on the coast of Syria, could help smuggle weapons to Gaza via Egypt.

The speculation in the mainstream press is that Iran had a hand in what triggered the Gaza attack at this time. It's not that far-fetched to think that Russia was also a player here. There is already a struggle in Congress over how to fund military aid for Israel and whether it should be linked to, or severed from, aid to Ukraine. Donald Trump, always happy to shake Putin's hand, has been doing everything he can to oppose aid to Ukraine. Hence, Republicans want to support Israel but are divided over Ukraine.

 

[Debater Slayer]

if you don't want to be strawmanned (which might or might not be what happened), how about not strawmanning others?

To emphasize, you have failed to back up the accusation I highlighted in red above when called out on it:

"Might or might not be"? It's pretty clear that no one in this thread thinks "beheading babies is totally understandable and shouldn't be factored into anything." Where is your "might not be" coming from?

You haven't answered this:



You made a serious accusation by saying "might not be." What is that based on? This is your chance to back that up.

Before trying to tell anyone else about "logic and evidence," it is essential that one ensure their own comments are based on evidence and free of vitriolic and emotionally charged rhetoric. Misrepresentations are not conducive to useful discussion.

 

[icehorse]

Posting on a forum or another discussion platform during a war as a regular observer to speculate about what an extremist group was thinking in its HQ before committing an attack on civilians seems to me ill-timed and not the most respectful thing to do at the moment. It would effectively be treating a war with many civilian lives at stake as some thought experiment or mental exercise.

Or it could be viewed as good faith attempts at problem solving... if you give democracy any credence a all.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Or it could be viewed as good faith attempts at problem solving... if you give democracy any credence a all.

None of us will solve anything about this by commenting on it here. It would be great if we could, but realistically, I don't see how that would happen.

 

[icehorse]

None of us will solve anything about this by commenting on it here. It would be great if we could, but realistically, I don't see how that would happen.

I understand that democracy is far from perfect. But sometimes things like non-violent protests can make a difference!

 

[Orbit]

A useful explainer: 7 big questions about the Israel-Hamas war, answered

 

[exchemist]

Look, there's a lot more to my conspiracy speculation than just timing. Iranian Shias are at loggerheads with Saudi Sunnis in the region, and Israel has been making headway in normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia and other regional Arab nations. The inevitable bloody retaliation on Gaza by Israel is likely to call a halt to it. (For example, El Al recently won overflight privileges with Saudi Arabia.) Because Russia is helping to prop up the Alawite Shia Assad regime in its war against Sunni insurgents, that makes Russia a natural ally with Iran. Not to mention the fact that they share a mutual enemy--the US. The timing issue would likely be that Russia could use the Hamas attack to keep its sabotage out of the headlines and have the advantage of distracting the US from its support for Ukraine just before winter sets in. All it would take would be foreknowledge of when the Hamas attack would begin. Russia, with its military naval base on the coast of Syria, could help smuggle weapons to Gaza via Egypt.

The speculation in the mainstream press is that Iran had a hand in what triggered the Gaza attack at this time. It's not that far-fetched to think that Russia was also a player here. There is already a struggle in Congress over how to fund military aid for Israel and whether it should be linked to, or severed from, aid to Ukraine. Donald Trump, always happy to shake Putin's hand, has been doing everything he can to oppose aid to Ukraine. Hence, Republicans want to support Israel but are divided over Ukraine.

The same thought had occurred to me. But it may be a bridge too far. I have not so far seen any of the pundits suggesting Russian involvement, though there is little doubt it must suit Putin to have this blow up just when Congress is stating to argue about funding for Ukraine.

I listened to David Aaronovitch's "Briefing Room" on Radio 4 this evening, which was devoted to this topic. One of the interesting observations was the degree of sophistication of the Hamas attack, using drones and electronic countermeasures. This was way beyond a mere terrorist operation. They have been getting a lot of kit, and lot of training, from somewhere. Iran seems to be in the frame as the supplier. No one mentioned Russia - and in truth they must need all their gear for the Ukraine campaign.

 

[We Never Know]

I hope not but this could get nasty real quick.

British warships, aircraft, and a force of Royal Marines are joining a US Navy carrier strike group in waters near Israel​

MSN

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