What are the mistakes Muslims do when informing others about Islam?

[Autodidact]

Actually, it is something you can't back up, fatihah.

Where is your evidence that Islam is a perfect religion?

I certainly don't see it today, where more militant Muslims kill other Muslims who are peaceful in the mosques or marketplace. I don't see Islamic or Muslim-populated country to be any less corrupt than those in the imperfect West. There are as many more ignorant or uneducated Muslims than there are educated and wise Muslims.

Even when the Islamic empires existed, it is marred by wars, conquests and invasions, forcing women and children into slavery if they don't surrender. Hardly what I call a perfect society in that? Do you forget that Islamic empire have raided the way to Spain, via Africa? Do you forget that they destroyed the Byzantine capital - Constantinople, which you called Istanbul? Do you forget the army had taken much of Eastern Europe, and still want to push westward into Central and Western Europe? Haven't you forgotten Persia, Armenia, Central Asia, and more importantly India? Invasion is an invasion. That Muslims today tried to whitewash what they have did in their history, by calling "liberation", doesn't change the fact that invasion by foreign Islamic army is an invasion by foreign army. The Islamic empire had exploited the territories they have gained as much as any non-Islamic empires. And you whine about invasion Iraq, while ignoring Saddam had butchered the Kurds and Shiite Muslims, while enriching the Sunni Arabs living in Iraq.

You have fables in the Qur'an where King Solomon supposed control armies of djinns, and can communicate birds and ants, and even control the winds (Qur'an 27). Can you prove that such ability exist? What it say about Solomon is even more embellished than what is written in 1 Kings 1-11. The only miraculous thing to actually occur in the bible about Solomon, is that he prayed and gain wisdom, nothing silly like talking to animals and controlling the weather found in the Qur'an.

Believing in perfection is one thing, proving it is altogether a different matter, and no Muslims have proven the religion is perfect, let alone the scripture or their prophet. It is simply boasting and propaganda, and I am not impress when Muslims or any other religions for that matter, claiming one true perfect religion.

Oh, that's easy. Islam is good. So when people do bad things, it's not Islam. Get it?

 

[gnostic]

Oh, that's easy. Islam is good. So when people do bad things, it's not Islam. Get it?

But when it is Communist China or the former Soviet Union, it's atheism or secularism.

What hypocritical B.S. all these Abrahamic theists spouted? (eg. 301ouncer's "Islam will dominate" thread).

 

[darkendless]

Oh, that's easy. Islam is good. So when people do bad things, it's not Islam. Get it?

This is a point i made in another thread. No religion is prepared to take responsibility for people who draw negative attention to their religion.

Its easier to islote them and wash their hands of responsibility than it is to investigate why the negative attention was recieved.

 

[Badran]

Actually, it is something you can't back up, fatihah.

Where is your evidence that Islam is a perfect religion?

I certainly don't see it today, where more militant Muslims kill other Muslims who are peaceful in the mosques or marketplace. I don't see Islamic or Muslim-populated country to be any less corrupt than those in the imperfect West. There are as many more ignorant or uneducated Muslims than there are educated and wise Muslims.

Even when the Islamic empires existed, it is marred by wars, conquests and invasions, forcing women and children into slavery if they don't surrender. Hardly what I call a perfect society in that? Do you forget that Islamic empire have raided the way to Spain, via Africa? Do you forget that they destroyed the Byzantine capital - Constantinople, which you called Istanbul? Do you forget the army had taken much of Eastern Europe, and still want to push westward into Central and Western Europe? Haven't you forgotten Persia, Armenia, Central Asia, and more importantly India? Invasion is an invasion. That Muslims today tried to whitewash what they have did in their history, by calling "liberation", doesn't change the fact that invasion by foreign Islamic army is an invasion by foreign army. The Islamic empire had exploited the territories they have gained as much as any non-Islamic empires. And you whine about invasion Iraq, while ignoring Saddam had butchered the Kurds and Shiite Muslims, while enriching the Sunni Arabs living in Iraq.

You have fables in the Qur'an where King Solomon supposed control armies of djinns, and can communicate birds and ants, and even control the winds (Qur'an 27). Can you prove that such ability exist? What it say about Solomon is even more embellished than what is written in 1 Kings 1-11. The only miraculous thing to actually occur in the bible about Solomon, is that he prayed and gain wisdom, nothing silly like talking to animals and controlling the weather found in the Qur'an.

Believing in perfection is one thing, proving it is altogether a different matter, and no Muslims have proven the religion is perfect, let alone the scripture or their prophet. It is simply boasting and propaganda, and I am not impress when Muslims or any other religions for that matter, claiming one true perfect religion.

So, aside from the story about Solomon. What does this have to do with anything?

You complained in the next post about people blaming certain things on secularism or Atheism, and then you used the exact same tactics? Telling biased stories about Muslims, and this should prove that Islam is bad.

Nobody claimed that Muslims were perfect, or that they are always good or all of them are good. So, what are you trying to prove?

 

[gnostic]

So, aside from the story about Solomon. What does this have to do with anything?

I don't believe either the tanakh/bible or the qur'an version of Solomon, but clearly the Qur'an is more embellished, less realistic, hence untruthful, and far from perfect.

Other thing that the Qur'an have embellished. There are no version of the Fall of Satan anyway in the tanakh or bible. The Fall of Satan was a Hellenistic and Rabbinic story, invented after the 3rd century BCE. And yet the Qur'an included this obviously Hellenistic myth, once again, clearly the Qur'an is a dishonest, imperfect scripture.

You complained in the next post about people blaming certain things on secularism or Atheism, and then you used the exact same tactics? Telling biased stories about Muslims, and this should prove that Islam is bad.

Is the Islamic empire "Islamic"?

Do you deny that Islam equate with the Islamic empire?

If it is, Islam is responsible for the invasions from after Muhammad's death to the Ottoman Empire's demise. Did the Islamic empires not invade and occupy all those other kingdoms, all in the name and glory of Islam?

Nobody claimed that Muslims were perfect, or that they are always good or all of them are good.

I don't think Muhammad is perfect too.

Does Muhammad not equate to Islam?

Because it would seem to me that Islam synonymous to Islam as much as Allah to Islam.

Did Muhammad not attack the Jewish tribes, one after the other, and order the death of men, and enslave the women and children that caught alive? Did Muhammad not have two Jewish poets assassinated? Did Muhammad not marry girl who less than 10?

All of which is Islamic history, and yet Muslims make all sort of excuses instead of accepting responsible what Muhammad and after him had done, all in the name and glory of Islam.

So, what are you trying to prove?

All I wanted to say, is that I am not impressed by boastful claim that Islam is perfect...which was my original point.

Fatihah had challenged me to prove my point, about Islam being perfect or not.

Do you agree that the word "perfect" is subjective perspective?

Muslims may say it is perfect, but anyone else might have different view. Perfect, like beauty, opinion or belief is different for different people, everyone have different yardstick on what is perfect, so there is really no way to objectively measure what is "perfect".

 

[neves]

What is perfect... I need a definition on it...

 

[gnostic]

What is perfect... I need a definition on it...

I have edited my last post (post 305).

All I wanted to say, is that I am not impressed by boastful claim that Islam is perfect...which was my original point.

Fatihah had challenged me to prove my point, about Islam being perfect or not.

Do you agree that the word "perfect" is subjective perspective?

Muslims may say it is perfect, but anyone else might have different view. Perfect, like beauty, opinion or belief is different for different people, everyone have different yardstick on what is perfect, so there is really no way to objectively measure what is "perfect".

I have stated that each person have different yardstick to measure what is "perfect", so anyone else's opinion on what is "perfect" might be different from yours.

And that's what it is. Opinion. Just opinion. Perfection can't be measured, because everyone's opinion is different to everyone else.

Do you not agree?

And please, don't say that the Qur'an say Islam is "perfect", because that logical fallacy, particularly a circular fallacy.

 

[Badran]

I don't believe either the tanakh/bible or the qur'an version of Solomon, but clearly the Qur'an is more embellished, less realistic, hence untruthful, and far from perfect.

Other thing that the Qur'an have embellished. There are no version of the Fall of Satan anyway in the tanakh or bible. The Fall of Satan was a Hellenistic and Rabbinic story, invented after the 3rd century BCE. And yet the Qur'an included this obviously Hellenistic myth, once again, clearly the Qur'an is a dishonest, imperfect scripture.



Is the Islamic empire "Islamic"?

Do you deny that Islam equate with the Islamic empire?

If it is, Islam is responsible for the invasions from after Muhammad's death to the Ottoman Empire's demise. Did the Islamic empires not invade and occupy all those other kingdoms, all in the name and glory of Islam?



I don't think Muhammad is perfect too.

Did Muhammad not attack the Jewish tribes, one after the other, and order the death of men, and enslave the women and children that caught alive? Did Muhammad not have two Jewish poets assassinated? Did Muhammad not marry girl who less than 10?

All of which is Islamic history, and yet Muslims make all sort of excuses instead of accepting responsible what Muhammad and after him had done, all in the name and glory of Islam.

Think what you want, you are saying your opinion of the Quran and Muhammad (pbuh), great that's up to you. Don't mix it up with proving anything though.

What on earth does the fact that certain stories in the Quran differs from other scriptures proof?

And you haven't answered the main question of my post, Why did you use the same tactic you criticize?

You and others were mad when 301 showed crimes perpetrated by westerners as proof against secularism. Everybody criticized him, and i did too. Then now, you are stating stories about some Muslims as if they prove Islam is bad just because some people assumably did horrible things. Even if they claimed it is for Islam, all there actions directly oppose and contradicts obvious rules in the Quran and Hadiths. They are not representative of Islam, because they didn't follow it's teachings.

As for the stories about Muhammad (pbuh), every single thing you mentioned has already been addressed before, and even some of them you asked me about them in another thread.

 

[Badran]

All I wanted to say, is that I am not impressed by boastful claim that Islam is perfect...which was my original point.

Fatihah had challenged me to prove my point, about Islam being perfect or not.

Do you agree that the word "perfect" is subjective perspective?

Muslims may say it is perfect, but anyone else might have different view. Perfect, like beauty, opinion or belief is different for different people, everyone have different yardstick on what is perfect, so there is really no way to objectively measure what is "perfect".

Of course you don't have to view it as perfect, it is up to you. If you don't agree with anything in it, and think it is wrong, then it is not perfect to you. If i agree with every thing in it, then it is perfect to me.

 

[darkendless]

May i ask how Islam is perfect when so many (lately) muslims have drawn negative attention to Islam and as a result been called un-islamic?

 

[gnostic]

Then do you think what the Islamic empires did (invasion, occupation and slavery) are not "Islamic"?

Many Muslims would claim that Islam and Islamic Empire are one and the same, hence no separation of state and religion. If the empire invaded another country, then Islam is responsible for the invasion.

Many Muslims would claim that Islam (or the Qur'an) is responsible for the so-called "Islamic" science instead of giving due credits to Muslim scientists who made the discoveries.

And do you think Islamic law (sharia) and law court of today used the same law and court back in the day of the Islamic empire's days?

 

[Badran]

May i ask how Islam is perfect when so many (lately) muslims have drawn negative attention to Islam and as a result been called un-islamic?

Islam has certain teachings. Some follow it, and some don't. We claim that the examples you are talking about clearly and directly oppose rules given in the Quran and Hadiths. Therefore, they are not following the rules of Islam, and are not representatives of it.

Also, Islam and Muslims are different things. Muslims are not perfect, and i don't think anybody actually claimed such thing before. However, that doesn't mean that the teachings are not.

 

[YmirGF]

What is perfect... I need a definition on it...

Main Entry: per·fect
Pronunciation: \ˈpər-fikt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English parfit, from Anglo-French, from Latin perfectus, from past participle of perficere to carry out, perfect, from per- thoroughly + facere to make, do — more at do
Date: 14th century
1 a : being entirely without fault or defect : flawless <a perfect diamond>
b : satisfying all requirements : accurate
c : corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept <a perfect gentleman>
d : faithfully reproducing the original; specifically : letter-perfect
e : legally valid
2 : expert, proficient <practice makes perfect>
3 a : pure, total
b : lacking in no essential detail : complete
c obsolete : sane
d : absolute, unequivocal <enjoys perfect happiness>
e : of an extreme kind : unmitigated <a perfect brat> <an act of perfect foolishness>


Compared translations of Qur'an 5:3

This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. - Yusuf Ali

This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - Pickthal

Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam for your religion. But whosoever is constrained in emptiness and not inclining purposely to sin -- God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. - Arberry

This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful - Shakir

Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead.Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful. - Khalifa

This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful. - Hilali/Khan

This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. - H/K/Saheeh

Today the unbelievers have given up all their hope of vanquishing your religion. Have no fear of them, fear Me. Today I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you and approved Al-Islam as a Deen (way of life for you). Anyone who is compelled by hunger to eat what is forbidden, not intending to commit sin, will find Allah Forgiving, Merciful. - Malik

This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour to you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. But whoever is compelled by hunger, not including wilfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, merciful. - Maulana Ali

Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me shall be your religion.'° As for him, however, who is driven [to what is forbidden] by dire necessity" and not by an inclination to sinning - behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace. - Asad

:thud:

Well, there you have it. Ten respected English translations, from which, we can clearly see that none other than God Almighty (allegedly) has proclaimed Islam to be perfect and therefore Muslims are only echoing his sentiments.

 

[gnostic]

Of course you don't have to view it as perfect, it is up to you. If you don't agree with anything in it, and think it is wrong, then it is not perfect to you. If i agree with every thing in it, then it is perfect to me.

That's exactly my point...back in post 241, 242 and 245.

.lava misunderstood my post, but Fatihah then challenged me, so I've responded the way I did with post 247 and again in 265:

Response: Another argument which you can't back up. At least you are consistant.

Challenge me, and you are most likely will get a response.

All I wanted to say originally, that Muslims shoving Islam is perfect, or the Qur'an is perfect, or Muhammad is perfect, is one of the mistakes Muslims make, when they tried to inform us non-Muslims about Islam. We are simply not impress with such boast. And that's what it is, a boast, and childish and empty one at that, with no substance.

That's the whole reason why I posted in this thread. Fatihah's challenge simply distracted me what I wanted to say.

If Muslims want us to heed what you say, then saying you (or your prophet) are perfect or your religion is perfect, is an empty claim and a great big fat no-no. No one like a show off. And trying to show off your religion is no better than showing off your car or penis. That sort of things doesn't impress anyone except themselves.

Do you understand what I am getting at, now?

 

[darkendless]

Islam has certain teachings. Some follow it, and some don't. We claim that the examples you are talking about clearly and directly oppose rules given in the Quran and Hadiths. Therefore, they are not following the rules of Islam, and are not representatives of it.

Also, Islam and Muslims are different things. Muslims are not perfect, and i don't think anybody actually claimed such thing before. However, that doesn't mean that the teachings are not.

Muslims are not perfect so how can a religion which is measured by its followers as without followers there is no religion be perfect?

 

[Badran]

Then do you think what the Islamic empires did (invasion, occupation and slavery) are not "Islamic"?

They are not all one guy doing something in a couple of days. This is stuff done by various people, on multiple incidents, so there is no collective judgment for all of them together. Any of them, that did anything like slavery or forcing people to join Islam or..... directly contradict with Islam's teachings.

Many Muslims would claim that Islam and Islamic Empire are one and the same, hence no separation of state and religion. If the empire invaded another country, then Islam is responsible for the invasion.

Islam is a religion. It's adherents want to live in an Islamic state. Some will accomplish that goal correctly, and some won't. Also, people should be responsible for their actions not their religion, or there government, or there culture. In other words, Muslims are responsible for anything, not Islam.

Many Muslims would claim that Islam (or the Qur'an) is responsible for the so-called "Islamic" science instead of giving due credits to Muslim scientists who made the discoveries.

How could the Quran be responsible for discoveries made by Muslims?

And do you think Islamic law (sharia) and law court of today used the same law and court back in the day of the Islamic empire's days?

I don't understand this question.

 

[Badran]

That's exactly my point...back in post 241, 242 and 245.

.lava misunderstood my post, but Fatihah then challenged me, so I've responded the way I did with post 247 and again in 265:



Challenge me, and you are most likely will get a response.

All I wanted to say originally, that Muslims shoving Islam is perfect, or the Qur'an is perfect, or Muhammad is perfect, is one of the mistakes Muslims make, when they tried to inform us non-Muslims about Islam. We are simply not impress with such boast. And that's what it is, a boast, and childish and empty one at that, with no substance.

That's the whole reason why I posted in this thread. Fatihah's challenge simply distracted me what I wanted to say.

If Muslims want us to heed what you say, then saying you (or your prophet) are perfect or your religion is perfect, is an empty claim and a great big fat no-no. No one like a show off. And trying to show off your religion is no better than showing off your car or penis. That sort of things doesn't impress anyone except themselves.

Do you understand what I am getting at, now?

I understand what you are saying. You are entitled to your opinion. I don't see what has our belief in the Quran as perfect, has to do with showing off. Some people might put that in an arrogant way, or demeaning way. But i don't think the belief in itself is arrogant. If you do think the belief in itself is arrogant, then of course that is up to you.

 

[YmirGF]

I understand what you are saying. You are entitled to your opinion. I don't see what has our belief in the Quran as perfect, has to do with showing off. Some people might put that in an arrogant way, or demeaning way. But i don't think the belief in itself is arrogant. If you do think the belief in itself is arrogant, then of course that is up to you.

Theoretically it is not important what you believe as Islam is described as being perfect by Allah himself. The thoughts of trifling humans, on the matter, are of no consequence.

 

[Badran]

Muslims are not perfect so how can a religion which is measured by its followers as without followers there is no religion be perfect?

People are not perfect, they do mistakes. There attempts to follow their religion will have downfalls and they will do mistakes, always. the Quran doesn't make someone perfect.

However, since i understand your point here, i'll rephrase. Our belief, is that Islamic teachings, in the Quran are perfect. As in, they don't contradict, and they don't advocate evil things, and they don't contain false information. So, it is our belief, that the Quran hasn't been corrupted through time.

 

[darkendless]

People are not perfect, they do mistakes. There attempts to follow their religion will have downfalls and they will do mistakes, always. the Quran doesn't make someone perfect.

However, since i understand your point here, i'll rephrase. Our belief, is that Islamic teachings, in the Quran are perfect. As in, they don't contradict, and they don't advocate evil things, and they don't contain false information. So, it is our belief, that the Quran hasn't been corrupted through time.

It makes sense if thats what you want it to be. Thanks for being clear, i've had this kind of discussion before and been told i shouldn''t be asking such questions and that i'm too secular to understand etc. so thanks for the understandable reply