What are the mistakes Muslims do when informing others about Islam?

[Luminous]

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? Prove that the definition of one "born muslim" is one born with the knowledge of religious men.

I don't have to...that was never the case.
What i stated was that to be a Muslim you must know about and follow Islam.

 

[Luminous]

Islam is the submission to God in it's simplest explanations. We believe according to the Quran that we are born with something called (fitrah) which means something like our basic knowledge or instincts that we are born with. In this basic instincts, there are a couple of information or attributes that we believe we have when we are born. One of them, is knowing that there is a God and only one God, and that in our nature, we submit to him, unless of course we decide otherwise later on.

This is of course a belief, it can't be proven, or at least i can't prove it. So, i hope this clarifies why doesn't Fatihah agree that we are born agnostic.

that is a very reasonable explanation. however, i do not account my opinion with simply faith. I believe babies are born agnostic because it seams like the idea with the least assumptions. If a baby is born knowing that there is only one-sole God who cannot or willnot manifest in multiple fashion, how can such truth be currupted? If the baby is however born with an instinct to favor monotheism, that baby would still be agnostic. If to be a muslim only requires favor of monotheism, then the standards for being muslim are little. Islam itself is not a very monotheistic religion, there are lesser gods called Jin, IMO. also In my opinion, our nature is everything that we do. so if we really did decide to favor something other than monotheism later in life, it would still be because of our nature.
Again the problem arises that there is paradox, contradiction, and other logical fallacies when people learn about Islam. Gaps in information could accout for much of this, but that would be a big assumption that would make the "others" already thus believe in Islam.

 

[Luminous]

Response: "But they have no knowledge thereof. They follow nothing but conjecture, and conjecture avails naught against truth". Qur'an.

Truth that YOU poses Fatihah? or truth that ONLY GOD posses?
(Take this in no way to Legitimize the book, i still see it as idol scripture. even with that Agnostic snipet, the rest is undoubtedly filled with anti-agnostic rable.)

 

[Luminous]

What is meant is that all things are created/born submitting to the laws of God. For example, the moon is created submitting to the laws God has subjected it to. God commanded it to orbit the earth, and it obeys, without choice of course. A human is born obeying God's laws, but as they grow, they begin to have the ability to choose, and so they choose to either submit (be Muslim) or reject. When they are born, they are pure and submissive, they have no ability to reject God's laws, they are purely subject to them, as is the moon, and the sun and the trees etc.

Yes, but then it is also fact that God commands all that IS. and thus NOTHING goes against God's Will, for IT's will is always done. the ability to choose is God's Will, and thus God's will is always done. even if one "rejects" what God would prefer them to do, it would still be by God's Will, as everything was created by IT and IT is the ultimate cause, IT already chose everything that was, is, and will be.
unless im mistaken. therein lies a paradox, there is no way to reject the will of the Ultimate Cause.

 

[Fatihah]

But what is perfection?

Perfection is different for different people. It is a matter of perspective and opinion. Your opinion and belief doesn't make your religion perfect. It is certainly not unique.

And you have the Qur'an based on Judaeo-Christian myths and fables, which Muhammad embellished even more with absolute nonsense that about djinns and King Solomon who can communicate with birds and ants (Qur'an 27) and control winds, so where the TRUTH in that? The Qur'anic version of Solomon is even more unrealistic than the biblical version.

Response: Another argument which you can't back up. At least you are consistant.

 

[Fatihah]

I don't have to...that was never the case.
What i stated was that to be a Muslim you must know about and follow Islam.

Response: O.K. Now prove that the definition of the word "muslim" is one who "must know about and follow islam". Show me which arabic dictionary says this.

 

[Fatihah]

Truth that YOU poses Fatihah? or truth that ONLY GOD posses?
(Take this in no way to Legitimize the book, i still see it as idol scripture. even with that Agnostic snipet, the rest is undoubtedly filled with anti-agnostic rable.)

Response: Truth period. And if you insist on discussing the qur'an or islam as untrue or idol scripture then you should do so in another thread, which I am more than willing to join. But this is not the topic here.

 

[Luminous]

Response: Your entitled to question the validity of my statement. However, the truth is not based on consensus, but facts. So whether two parties disagree on what a certain truth is does not change the fact that something is true. So I would question the validity of your statement as well.

Furthermore, to state that it is not an innate natural process to learn religion is irrelevant to being born a muslim. For the definition of a muslim is not "an innate natural process to learn religion". Islam is the submission to the will of Allah. A child when born acts according to the will in which he or she was created and not their own will, thus the child is born a muslim.

Whether a child is born following the Will of God is irrelevant. In question here is whether the Will of God is Islam. It is clear that a Child is born Agnostic, even you basically agreed with that, not knowing about the religion of Islam. If babies follow the Will of God, but not the religion of Islam(in its various forms), than how can Muslim's claim They are following God's Will? If God's will could somehow be broken, there is no real basis to claim that Islam is God's Will...being as we are all Agnostic and born Agnostic, it is our natural condition to be Agnostic, and nature cannot be broken. God's will is for us to not be all-knowing, and we aren't.

 

[Luminous]

i think it is silly, sorry, Autodidact. though i find that post unnecessary and heart breaking, i would not think someone wants to kill all mothers just because he loves his mother more than rest. there are tons of way to praise someone, hundreds of ways to express your love, while doing it so if you tend to insult others, you are either revengeful or very clummsy. i don't need to insult one to praise another.

evil communicates? we all do silly things and mistakes. we all sometimes drift in anger and say things we would not prefer to say in a calm mood. so to speak we all speak "evil" once in awhile but that's not being a evil-man. evil only has a agenda and if he speaks he only speaks for his agenda. i don't believe 301 has a agenda. he is sharing his opinions and how he sees stuff and you don't like what you are hearing. as a Muslim i would not feel proud of what i am hearing when a Muslim degrades existence of a non-Muslim just to praise his beloved Muslim friend. though i don't think it is evil. it only shows how much he loves and cares for his fellow Muslim brother. and no, of course he could have expressed the very same love without breaking your heart or disturbing your mind. but he did not. so go ask him whatever you want to know. just don't try to pull me into a personal stuff of yours. i already share what i think and feel when i want to. if you think it is not enough, then forgive me because real evil is in Muslim nations killing Muslims, stealing their future. it has become normal after all, isn't it? as if there is no war at all

.

I understand that we are getting wayyyy too much into 301 message, but when one compares all other mothers to practically worthless bodyparts, it can easily lead to the assumtion that they are just as worthless and (maybe not should, but) can be killed. It is not evil (unless you consider stupidity as evil) it is just bad.

 

[Badran]

that is a very reasonable explanation. however, i do not account my opinion with simply faith. I believe babies are born agnostic because it seams like the idea with the least assumptions. If a baby is born knowing that there is only one-sole God who cannot or willnot manifest in multiple fashion, how can such truth be currupted? If the baby is however born with an instinct to favor monotheism, that baby would still be agnostic. If to be a muslim only requires favor of monotheism, then the standards for being muslim are little. Islam itself is not a very monotheistic religion, there are lesser gods called Jin, IMO. also In my opinion, our nature is everything that we do. so if we really did decide to favor something other than monotheism later in life, it would still be because of our nature.
Again the problem arises that there is paradox, contradiction, and other logical fallacies when people learn about Islam. Gaps in information could accout for much of this, but that would be a big assumption that would make the "others" already thus believe in Islam.

Yes, but then it is also fact that God commands all that IS. and thus NOTHING goes against God's Will, for IT's will is always done. the ability to choose is God's Will, and thus God's will is always done. even if one "rejects" what God would prefer them to do, it would still be by God's Will, as everything was created by IT and IT is the ultimate cause, IT already chose everything that was, is, and will be.
unless im mistaken. therein lies a paradox, there is no way to reject the will of the Ultimate Cause.

I see what you are saying. But Islam is all about monotheism. There is no lesser Gods involved.

I agree with you that a baby is born agnostic, in the sense that he is not committed to any religion in specific. However, as already explained a baby is a Muslim in the sense that he submits to God, so once again it's really a matter of prospective. Yes, yours is based on lesser assumptions. I'm just explaining why we view it in that way. God created things, they are all submitting to him, except for human beings. They must choose to. However, when they are newly born they still don't have certain abilities that people have after a certain point. So, in that state, they are completely submitting to God. This is how i view it.

As for free will, there is no contradiction really. God predetermined the outcome of things. But there are different ways we can get there with. He already knows which way each of us will take, but he didn't make the choice for us. He just knows it. That raises other questions, but that should be for a different thread. There is another thread called "the basic beliefs of a Muslim", in which this subject was already raised, may be you'd like to continue it there.

 

[Luminous]

Living in an Islamic society doesn't mean you have to be a Muslim, or act like one. Otherwise we wouldn't have special rules as to how to deal with non-muslims in an Islamic society.

This is where things get messy. "special rules" is really just a fancy word for "different rights", which points to inequality. Living in an "Islamic Theocracy" should require you to abide by the same laws as others. otherwise it would be some sort of segreationist/aparthyistic Islamic society, and such societies useally foster a sort of inequality among their citizens. ofcourse, once all religions are treated the same or ignored, that's when it becomes a secular nation anyway. A nation can be secular, and still have Muslims worshiping the way they want.

 

[Badran]

This is where things get messy. "special rules" is really just a fancy word for "different rights", which points to inequality. Living in an "Islamic Theocracy" should require you to abide by the same laws as others. otherwise it would be some sort of segreationist/aparthyistic Islamic society, and such societies useally foster a sort of inequality among their citizens. ofcourse, once all religions are treated the same or ignored, that's when it becomes a secular nation anyway. A nation can be secular, and still have Muslims worshiping the way they want.

What i meant by special rules, is that it is rules that will deal with those minorities who live in an Islamic society in different way regarding just known certain matters. A very obvious example, is that they are not to be subject to all the same rules as Muslims, since they don't believe in Islam. So, it was not meant in the context you took it with. But all the rights of a person in that community, will be the same.

 

[Luminous]

The hostility is coming from your side. Atheists are on a quest to rid the world of religion, and since Islam is the most pure expression of religion, you focus mostly on Islam.

actually, when i was on a quest to rid the world of "dangerous and excessive irrationality" I found Glory to be the most pure expression of religion...the Bahá'i Faith seamed the most understandable and believeable one. I guess it's just a personal opinion though.

 

[Fatihah]

Whether a child is born following the Will of God is irrelevant. In question here is whether the Will of God is Islam. It is clear that a Child is born Agnostic, even you basically agreed with that, not knowing about the religion of Islam. If babies follow the Will of God, but not the religion of Islam(in its various forms), than how can Muslim's claim They are following God's Will? If God's will could somehow be broken, there is no real basis to claim that Islam is God's Will...being as we are all Agnostic and born Agnostic, it is our natural condition to be Agnostic, and nature cannot be broken. God's will is for us to not be all-knowing, and we aren't.

Response: This is again getting off topic. If you insist on discussing it, you should start a thread, and there, I'll be more than willing to demonstrate that being born agnostic is far from the truth.

 

[Luminous]

Response: O.K. Now prove that the definition of the word "muslim" is one who "must know about and follow islam". Show me which arabic dictionary says this.

if i am wrong about my definition of muslim then, Clearly, we are all Muslims, IMO. I AM A MUSLIM. and God's Will is always done.

 

[Luminous]

Response: Truth period. And if you insist on discussing the qur'an or islam as untrue or idol scripture then you should do so in another thread, which I am more than willing to join. But this is not the topic here.

No, i do not wish to discuss that aspect of my opinion...i was just pointing out that i do not wish to legitimize that book with you.

 

[Luminous]

I see what you are saying. But Islam is all about monotheism. There is no lesser Gods involved.

yes, i see your point here...Jin are not really gods, but i guess it all depends on opinion, to me they certainly seam just like gods.

I agree with you that a baby is born agnostic, in the sense that he is not committed to any religion in specific. However, as already explained a baby is a Muslim in the sense that he submits to God, so once again it's really a matter of prospective. Yes, yours is based on lesser assumptions. I'm just explaining why we view it in that way. God created things, they are all submitting to him, except for human beings. They must choose to. However, when they are newly born they still don't have certain abilities that people have after a certain point. So, in that state, they are completely submitting to God. This is how i view it.

I do almost get what you are saying, that because babies dont have religion and such they are still within the Will of God...but it does not explain (and even is evidence against) why Islam is the Will of God, which is a big part of the explanation to me of Islam

As for free will, there is no contradiction really. God predetermined the outcome of things. But there are different ways we can get there with. He already knows which way each of us will take, but he didn't make the choice for us. He just knows it. That raises other questions, but that should be for a different thread. There is another thread called "the basic beliefs of a Muslim", in which this subject was already raised, may be you'd like to continue it there.

I like very much how you are explaining it, but IMO allowance constitutes Will.

Thank you very much Badran, I truely hope i am not being too close minded.

 

[Luminous]

What i meant by special rules, is that it is rules that will deal with those minorities who live in an Islamic society in different way regarding just known certain matters. A very obvious example, is that they are not to be subject to all the same rules as Muslims, since they don't believe in Islam. So, it was not meant in the context you took it with. But all the rights of a person in that community, will be the same.

yes, i could understand how a "non-muslim" would not be required to pray, but why then are muslims? if it is that they want to pray, then they shouldn't be forced to pray. all that separating the rules does is separate the people. This however, is quite off-topic aswell. unless you account that it is dealing with a "mistake" that some make when informing others about Islam and how confusing the rules and such can get.

 

[LuisDantas]

It seems to me that Luminous is pointing out (correctly AFAIK) that a society that gives equal rights to people of all religions is by definition secular.

Of course, that also means that such a society will never be fully Islamic. I can't tell for sure that Islam can only be fully realized under a Islamic government, but that seems to be what most Muslims believe to be true to some degree. There is certainly no deluge of Muslims asking for a secular government...

In this context, Badran, your statement that non-Muslims shall not be treated the same as Muslims is worth a close look. I truly don't believe that you are advocating discrimination. You don't look like that sort of person, not at all. But still, taken at face value, such a statement is indeed discriminatory.

If I may be so bold, let me speculate that perhaps it is useful to go deeper into the Islamic understanding of the functions of religion, state, and of which sort of link the two should have with each other.

Far as I can tell, there is presently an unavoidable clash of goals between secularists (me among them) and (some? all? "proper?") Muslims. A secular society is only possible by having a government that does not favor any religion over any others (or over atheism and/or lack of religion). Indeed, I personally believe that the best government possible is so secular that it does not even bother attempting to tell what is religious from what is not.

A Islamic society, from many impressions, would by necessity demand some set of governmental privileges to feel fully realized. If that is true, than the choices are either open conflict and compromise of some sort. Conflict is destructive almost by definition, and compromise requires mutual understanding. So I maintain that dialog must be sought after either way. If nothing else, it will allow both sides to dismiss some fears and concentrate into problems that actually have a factual basis.

 

[Badran]

yes, i see your point here...Jin are not really gods, but i guess it all depends on opinion, to me they certainly seam just like gods.

Of course you are entitled to your view. We view them as one of God's creatures.

I do almost get what you are saying, that because babies dont have religion and such they are still within the Will of God...but it does not explain (and even is evidence against) why Islam is the Will of God, which is a big part of the explanation to me of Islam

As i understand, Islam is the submission to God, as in the the submission to what he wants us to do, either willingly, which is the case with human beings. Or, with other creatures who can't make such choice. And newly born babies, as they have assumably not yet developed the ability to make a choice.

I like very much how you are explaining it, but IMO allowance constitutes Will.

I'm not sure i understand you correctly, but if you mean that if God allows us to choose, but he can stop us if he wants, then the answer to that is that he won't stop us, or he won't intervene, because he will judge us based on our choices.

Thank you very much Badran, I truely hope i am not being too close minded.

You're most welcome. And no, you are not being closed minded. These concepts are always a matter of debate.