What are the mistakes Muslims do when informing others about Islam?

[gnostic]

Mistake like 301ouncer's topic - Islam will dominate.

Bashing secularism.

I know that secular society may not be "perfect", but are there any such thing as a "perfect society"?

I rather lived with imperfect secular law than a brutal Islamic law that are clearly biased against non-Muslims. And 301ouncer kept ignorantly confusing secularism with atheism.

 

[gnostic]

And speaking of perfection.

Saying Islam is a perfect religion or one true religion will not convince me in any way to join Islam (or any other religion for that matter). Hearing or reading Muslims making such claim, only convince me that it is a childish religion with immature followers: it will only convince me that Islam, Muhammad and all the Muslims to be egotistic, vain, boastful and arrogant.

And if Muslims are like this, what do you think of how I will see your one god? That Allah will also be an egotistic, vain, boastful and arrogant deity. Hardly a god that I would like to follow, let alone worship.

 

[Fatihah]

Sorry I think that is absolute nonsense, a child is born with the ability to learn and fit in otherwise it would be outcast. Religion is learnt. It is a social construct. A child is never born of any religion except that superficially labeled by its parents. Evolution brought about a change in brain size with humans, but the human birth canal did not evolve as quickly, this is why children are in fact all born premature ie not fully functional or developed, it takes a few more years. A baby elephant or giraffe walks as soon as it is born, but not the human baby. We in Australia because of our merciful nature are inunndated with orphans from around the world including from muslim countries. If you were correct they would now be running around in Hijabs chanting the quran, but they are not, they are secular Australians, so you are 100% absolutely wrong.

Cheers

Response: I never stated that one is born wearing hijab and shouting the qur'an, thus your point has no relevance and is without merit. A child is born in total submission to the nature in which he or she is created. That nature, according to the teachings of islam, is from Allah. Thus the child is born into islam, for the definition of islam is submission to the will of Allah. And since you can not provide any proof that Allah is not the originator of a child's nature, then your own words is evidence enough to support the fact that the nonsense stems from your behalf.

 

[.lava]

And speaking of perfection.

Saying Islam is a perfect religion or one true religion will not convince me in any way to join Islam (or any other religion for that matter). Hearing or reading Muslims making such claim, only convince me that it is a childish religion with immature followers: it will only convince me that Islam, Muhammad and all the Muslims to be egotistic, vain, boastful and arrogant.

And if Muslims are like this, what do you think of how I will see your one god? That Allah will also be an egotistic, vain, boastful and arrogant deity. Hardly a god that I would like to follow, let alone worship.

why would i or anyone continue on a path that requires a life time of devotion and tons of daily duties if i thought it is imperfect? if there's anything imperfect in my actions, it is my imperfection.
and why would you or anyone refuse to be on a path if you thought it's perfect?

.

 

[gnostic]

You have misunderstood me, .lava.

If you think your religion is perfect, then that's your choice.

But when Muslims tried to use this to convince non-Muslims on how perfect or better than any other religion or way of life, then it sounds like kids in playground, boasting about their father's cars is better, faster or more powerful. And I know this is going to sound rude, but it is like boys comparing their penises.

Such boastful claim would never convince me to join your religion. And it is very same reason why I could never join Christianity. Both religions have this boastful and arrogant nature or mentality that disgust me more than "awe" me. Perhaps because both religion have inherited the "Chosen Ones" syndrome, which is patriarchal and archaic.

I am just saying that "perfection" is not convincing argument or persuasion.

 

[Kerr]

Response: I never stated that one is born wearing hijab and shouting the qur'an, thus your point has no relevance and is without merit. A child is born in total submission to the nature in which he or she is created. That nature, according to the teachings of islam, is from Allah. Thus the child is born into islam, for the definition of islam is submission to the will of Allah. And since you can not provide any proof that Allah is not the originator of a child's nature, then your own words is evidence enough to support the fact that the nonsense stems from your behalf.

Only from the perspective that you present here. There are a lot of assumptions you have to take before coming to such a conclusion, including the existence of your deity.

But this is a topic for another thread, I suggest if this debate is to continue we start a new thread about that topic.

 

[Fatihah]

You have misunderstood me, .lava.

If you think your religion is perfect, then that's your choice.

But when Muslims tried to use this to convince non-Muslims on how perfect or better than any other religion or way of life, then it sounds like kids in playground, boasting about their father's cars is better, faster or more powerful. And I know this is going to sound rude, but it is like boys comparing their penises.

Such boastful claim would never convince me to join your religion. And it is very same reason why I could never join Christianity. Both religions have this boastful and arrogant nature or mentality that disgust me more than "awe" me. Perhaps because both religion have inherited the "Chosen Ones" syndrome, which is patriarchal and archaic.

I am just saying that "perfection" is not convincing argument or persuasion.

Response: That depends on the person on the receiving end. Most, people, if not all, prefer the idea of perfection, rather than imperfection. So perfection is not a convincing argument to those for some odd reason prefer imperfection.

And to speak of perfection is boastful and arrogant, depending on its context. A kid in the playground speaking of how great there parents car is would be boastful and arrogant, because a playground is meant for play, not for such discussion. But this is a religious forum, islam is a religion, and it's adhertents of the religion accept islam because of its truth and perfection to them. As such, speaking in such a way is not boastful or arrogant at all. To the contrary, saying so is a reflection of one's own ego, for they dislike the idea of a religion or belief being praised so highly other than there own.

 

[Fatihah]

Only from the perspective that you present here. There are a lot of assumptions you have to take before coming to such a conclusion, including the existence of your deity.

But this is a topic for another thread, I suggest if this debate is to continue we start a new thread about that topic.

Response: Or rather, it is your assumption that it is an assumption, including the existance of my deity. However, this topic is for another thread, thus there is no need to continue.

 

[Kerr]

Response: Or rather, it is your assumption that it is an assumption, including the existance of my deity.

Way to twist my words.

However, this topic is for another thread, thus there is no need to continue.

Agreed. Think we should start one?

 

[Peacewise]

When it comes to discourse with Christians and especially Western people on the other hand, i feel that i am -and i suspect many other Shiites as well- are less informed with how to approach such a discourse..

I mean western people are not interested in knowing whether the first Caliph Abu-Bakr was a holy man or a hypocrite ...or whether Shia is the true Islam or Sunni...

So what do christians and Western people find important topics to be discussed about Islam?

what do they want to know about Islam?

Ok, like most discussions the worthwhile path is to begin with the assumptions. One of your assumptions is that it is reasonable to discuss christians and western people as a group, rather than as individuals. What works with one christian may not work with another and similarly so for westerners. Rejecting generalisations will be a useful step towards working out how to speak with individuals.

 

[Fatihah]

Way to twist my words.


Agreed. Think we should start one?

Response: It's not necessary to start a new one, for there are many threads on the subject. In fact, some are threads of my own, or an extension from other threads, as your question suggests. If you would like to continue, that's fine with me. But I prefer using threads already on the subject.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm still wait for some info on those supposed atheistic / secularistic bad deeds against Muslims. It is surprising how some people are so certain that they do exist, yet so reluctant to name them.

Maybe it is a common belief among Muslims (or some sizeable subgroup of them) that Israel's military activities are "atheistic" or "secularistic" in origin? That would still be puzzling (to me anyway), but would go a long way towards explaining that recurrent claim.

 

[gnostic]

Response: That depends on the person on the receiving end. Most, people, if not all, prefer the idea of perfection, rather than imperfection. So perfection is not a convincing argument to those for some odd reason prefer imperfection.

And to speak of perfection is boastful and arrogant, depending on its context. A kid in the playground speaking of how great there parents car is would be boastful and arrogant, because a playground is meant for play, not for such discussion. But this is a religious forum, islam is a religion, and it's adhertents of the religion accept islam because of its truth and perfection to them. As such, speaking in such a way is not boastful or arrogant at all. To the contrary, saying so is a reflection of one's own ego, for they dislike the idea of a religion or belief being praised so highly other than there own.

But what is perfection?

Perfection is different for different people. It is a matter of perspective and opinion. Your opinion and belief doesn't make your religion perfect. It is certainly not unique.

And you have the Qur'an based on Judaeo-Christian myths and fables, which Muhammad embellished even more with absolute nonsense that about djinns and King Solomon who can communicate with birds and ants (Qur'an 27) and control winds, so where the TRUTH in that? The Qur'anic version of Solomon is even more unrealistic than the biblical version.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Sorry, but you are indeed quite wrong. I still have no idea what you are talking about. What would those "atheistic occupations" be? When and where did they happen?

How about we begin with the deportation of the entire population of Chechnya and the entire population of Ingushetia by the Atheists after WWII?

 

[Autodidact]

In the entire time I've been engaging you on here, I've detected nothing but hostility by you. You automatically debate in a very hostile manner against Islam, assuming things about it, making claims about it etc. You are a prime example of this phenomenon yourself.

Are you perhaps confusing Luis with someone else? Or can you cite these supposedly 100% hostile posts from him? Do you perceive other people disagreeing with you as inherently hostile? Because this does not match with my memory or perception.

 

[Autodidact]

why would i or anyone continue on a path that requires a life time of devotion and tons of daily duties if i thought it is imperfect? if there's anything imperfect in my actions, it is my imperfection.
and why would you or anyone refuse to be on a path if you thought it's perfect?

.

Boastfullness and conceit (not to mention autocratic authority, a desire for craven submission, etc. etc.) is not perfect; it is a flaw. So when you make these claims, you have the effect of actually turning people off to your religion. (Not you in particular, but Muslims in general. I'm not saying you have made these claims.) A more effective approach is: "I have found this religion to make sense or work for me."

 

[Autodidact]

How about we begin with the deportation of the entire population of Chechnya and the entire population of Ingushetia by the Atheists after WWII?

Are you perhaps confusing atheism and communism?

 

[LuisDantas]

How about we begin with the deportation of the entire population of Chechnya and the entire population of Ingushetia by the Atheists after WWII?

Thanks. I will be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about that. But let's see if I can correct it.

I believe these links will serve as a starting point for research, at the very least:

History of Chechnya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ingushetia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From what I see there, it is indeed a very shameful and unfair matter. I am sorry that it happened, and I hope those people find better times in their future. They sure deserve to.

That being said, I wonder why you expect me to see them as some sort of conflict fueled by atheism. It sure sounds misleading to me. Incomplete as my understanding of what happened and why is, it doesn't seem to stray too far from a typical ethnic/political conflict fueled by expansionist greed. It is impressive by its scale and pointlessness, for sure, and quite possibly worth of more international attention. I have no argument on those matters and I welcome more information.

Maybe there is some sort of evidence that the Soviet authorities saw the Muslim communities of those nations as a trouble for their plans. I'm certainly not about to defend what they did to those Muslims. I have no reason to, and I don't at all approve those deportations.

Still, neither do I believe that the detail that the Soviet regime was sort of atheistic by way of Marxist doctrine made much of a difference, if any. Marxists are not particularly representative of atheism. Do you believe they were specifically attempting to smother Islam, or would it be fair to state that the Muslims were victims of political conflict? Come to think of it, is there any claim or evidence about how differentially, if at all, the Muslims of those places were treated by contrast with the non-Muslims?

In a sense it is a pity that there were probably so few atheists there, for it would provide evidence of how relevant belief was in that conflict. To my proudly secularized eyes it sounds like religion and atheism were in fact irrelevant, but I may well be wrong.

 

[Badran]

Boastfullness and conceit (not to mention autocratic authority, a desire for craven submission, etc. etc.) is not perfect; it is a flaw.

The attitude of some who say those claims is boastful, the religion itself is not. Also, there no is autocratic authority involved, and there is no such thing as a craven submission. You are only wording this in a bad way.

It is a religion, we believe it is perfect, and we willingly follow it. Nothing is weird here really. Believing my religion is perfect is one thing, and demeaning other religions is another. So, there is a difference between the attitude that some take, and between the way i and others view our religion as perfect.

 

[Allah-lover]

I have many reasons to consider Quran a Holly book & words of god or (Allah), to humanity. This window is not suffient to forward my ideas. when I become eligible to write threads you can interact with me.