What are the values of moderate Muslims?

[illykitty]

I'm pretty sure I read that killing apostates in that specific Hadith case to mean someone who betrays you and fights against Muslims?

Like cocolia42 pointed out though, it does say in the Qur'an that some people believe, disbelieve then believe again. How would that be possible if simply not calling yourself a Muslim anymore resulted in your death? That makes no sense. It would go against the Qur'an!

 

[TashaN]

I'm pretty sure I read that killing apostates in that specific Hadith case to mean someone who betrays you and fights against Muslims?

Like cocolia42 pointed out though, it does say in the Qur'an that some people believe, disbelieve then believe again. How would that be possible if simply not calling yourself a Muslim anymore resulted in your death? That makes no sense. It would go against the Qur'an!

Well said. you nailed it!

 

[TashaN]

I was wondering... why so many Muslims claim not to understand what a moderate Muslim would be?

Is it due to actual lack of understanding, or is it instead a show of respect for other Muslims?

I'll speak for myself. I do understand what moderation mean. In fact, Prophet Mohamed himself mentioned in one of the hadith that we have to take it easy on handling our religion because we will slip if we became extreme and lose ourselves eventually. The thing which i don't understand is the *moderation* perception at the mind of some people, it's as if they want to convert you to their own values as if it were *THE VALUES*. I hate it when people speak of moderation in way which shows as if they were trying to patronise me. Aside from that, i really don't have an issue with genuine attempt at understanding it in your part or any other person.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'll speak for myself. I do understand what moderation mean. In fact, Prophet Mohamed himself mentioned in one of the hadith that we have to take it easy on handling our religion because we will slip if we became extreme and lose ourselves eventually. The thing which i don't understand is the *moderation* perception at the mind of some people, it's as if they want to convert you to their own values as if it were *THE VALUES*. I hate it when people speak of moderation in way which shows as if they were trying to patronise me. Aside from that, i really don't have an issue with genuine attempt at understanding it in your part or any other person.

Thanks, TashaN.

It can be irritating to feel patronized into foreign expectations of what should be perceived as "reasonable". Having been in that position in many discussions about drugs and firearms, I think I can relate.

Give me some time to consider that and attempt to make use of this information in order to better communicate with you Muslims.

 

[TashaN]

Thanks to everyone for their responses! TashaN, let me ask you, how should I view the Quran? I'm told that the Quran is central to Islam and that it is perfect, final, and unalterable. Do you follow the Quran entirely, or do you pick and choose only certain verses? Or perhaps the Quran does not have any role in your life?

How do you think Muslims living in the west would answer these questions?

You are most welcome.

Well, i was born a Muslim but i'm no scholar and i have not read the entire Quran until now. I just memorize couple of short chapters which i recite on my prayer and i read some long chapters to deepen my understanding of the Quran. Recently i decided i must go through the whole book so i'm working on it. For now i know a couple of verses from here and there which relate to the topics i usually discuss with people about either in forums or other places. In fact, sometimes someone would bring up an issue with the Quran or some verses and i would simply go look it up and that's how i learn more about my own religion, lol.

Maybe because i grow up as a Muslim so i follow the Quran automatically since it was part of my education. Nevertheless, i think even new converts to Islam will resume their own life wherever they are in a normal way except that there is going to be a change in their heart, in their spirit which stem from the belief in God and his final message to humanity, the Quran.

I can go deeper in my explanation if you want about what Quran means to me, but i want to know which direction you want to go so i can elaborate.

I really like your questions and you have a lot of valid points which need to be addressed by Muslims, but at the end of the day, we are not scholars as you know, so our answers will vary between those who will focus on the theory part and concepts, and those who would try to focus on practice and those who focus on both. And don't expect that our answers represent Islam, but it represents our understanding which might not be complete yet. I also think you yearn for a concrete and final answers so you can get over with these issues but i don't think you will get quick satisfactory answers from here because we are still in the journey of this life and still trying to understand more.

So my advice to you is to take it easy and try to get all perspectives you can but don't rely on a single voice. And yeah, read books, lots of books because although the religion itself is simple but nowadays we have a package which comes with it called misconceptions. It need to be cleared first before you get to the core of this thing.

I really admire your passion for knowing more.

All the best.

Union,

I'm sure we've both engaged in similar conversations with others in the past. Let me see if I can save us both some time:

I read the translation of the Quran known as "King Fahd Complex", translated by Al-Hilali and Khan. I believe that this is the translation that has been printed and distributed throughout the world over 250 million times. I also cross-checked this version with two other versions, and the three seemed substantially the same.

As I read the book I took extensive notes. I have also seen published lists that have enumerated the Quran criticizing non-believers over 500 times. Just a short summary would include the Quran instructing Muslims that non-believers will always lie to Muslims. Non-believers should never be trusted or befriended. Non-believers will try to lie to Allah. Non-believers must either be converted to Islam or subdued. Muslims must fight until there is no disbelief in the world (2:193). Muslims must do Jihad even if they don't want to (2:216, 2:243...). Non-believers will always try to corrupt Muslims, they will try to harm you, hatred will come from their mouths (3:118). Non-believers love your pain and hate your joy (3:120). The list goes on and on.

Sometimes I have been told that I am misunderstanding the Quran. But the Quran tells me that it (the Quran), is clear, complete, un-corruptible and understandable.

Wow, so many questions you got out there. Hmmmm, i think it's more about making a point here in this argument more than discussing verses. So, how do you want us to go with this? do you want to discuss what does each and every single verse mean in context? i don't think so, would you rather like to discuss more about the concept itself behind the Quran or anything else in particular?

I'll wait for you to decide how you want me to approach your questions.

For now let me say this as a start. You have a very good valid point here, you are saying if it's true that the Quran is clear and understandable, then everyone should get it, right? so if you understood it in a certain way it means either your understanding is correct or the claim that's it's clear is false, right?

IMHO, i really don't think the Quran is a book of magic which will turn everybody's head once they read it and convert to Islam on the spot. Allah himself says in the Quran that if he will, he could have make the whole planet Muslims, but what's the point? he already created angels who are pure and never sin. What's the point then?

Allah wanted us to have free will, he wanted to know what we are capable of if we were in control of our actions and can think freely. That's why everybody can decide to believe in God or not to. Again, what's the point in believing per se? that's it? believe and worship? no, i don't think so.

God wanted for humanity to live on earth and work, build, travel, get to know ourselves, and get to know others, and get to know Him. While living on earth he decided to inspire some human beings to correct their morals when they go astray. Some Prophets came with miracles, and some came with scriptures so they can remain inspired generations to come. Quran is an inspirations. It will not give you a list of do's and don't but will inspire you definitely and guide you to wherever you want to go. Some people read it and mean nothing to them, and some with a more open mind read it and find it not only interesting but worth believing in it. So, it's up to you how you view it.

For me, everyday i read the Quran i discover something. Quran is not a history book nor a novel. Quran was revealed in a way which will touch the spirit and clear the heart so everytime i read it, even if it was the same verse, i would gain new understanding of it. Sometimes at the beginning i ask myself what is the meaning of this verse or that and why it's even there. Sometimes i get to know the answer and sometimes i don't. I'm yet to discover all the secrets of the Quran, but for now this is how i feel toward it. Quran will never cease to dazzle me and inspire me, i'm sure of that.

Sorry for the long post. Sometimes i feel i got nothing to say, and sometimes boom, i start writing nonstop, but maybe because that's mainly because i was deeply interested in this discussion.

 

[TashaN]

Thanks, TashaN.

It can be irritating to feel patronized into foreign expectations of what should be perceived as "reasonable". Having been in that position in many discussions about drugs and firearms, I think I can relate.

Give me some time to consider that and attempt to make use of this information in order to better communicate with you Muslims.

Thank you so much for your understanding and for your genuine effort to relate. Looking forward to discuss with you about anything you want, anytime you want.


Peace.

 

[LuisDantas]

One thing that is probably fair to consider is that Islam may be a bit unlike Christianity (or maybe not) when it comes to its divisions and goals.

Christians vary quite a lot, and as a rule do not hesitate a lot in criticizing other Christians when they feel that they are mistaken. Many, perhaps most, do not particularly want to attain a Christian government even when they are the definite majority of their countries.

 

[cocolia42]

I was wondering... why so many Muslims claim not to understand what a moderate Muslim would be?

Is it due to actual lack of understanding, or is it instead a show of respect for other Muslims?

My answer to this is that Islam does not provide for liberal, moderate and conservative views. A Muslim is, by definition, someone who submits to the Will of God. His Will does not change from one person to the next.

We (Muslims) are made a "middle nation". Allah and the Prophet both warn us against going to either extreme.

A Muslim who is on either extreme is a Muslim who lacks understanding about some part(s) of his deen and, in sha Allah, will learn and apply as time goes by.

 

[cocolia42]

I find this an especially chilling view. Hopefully others have noted it as well. Exit question: Why should a democratic republic value you as a citizen?

Everyone should be valued as a citizen, but not every citizen should get what they want. How many things do we see legal today that were illegal just 10 years ago? Does right and wrong change so easily? Some people call it progression. I don't. A group of people wanting to be able to do something does not make it right. That's my problem.

Democracy is not "rule by majority". Unfortunately, this is a common misconception. It is simply a system where every citizen has their fair share of participation in society's governance. The word is Greek for "rule of the people".

Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A pure democracy is ruled by majority. Every eligible citizen gets a vote and the most votes wins.
A republic considers the individuals. Representatives of the people make the final decision and that decision does not have to be in favor of the majority.
We have a democratic republic. Our representatives are elected in a a democratic process. The one with the majority of votes wins. Our president is elected in a republican process. The one with the majority of votes does not necessarily win because the electoral college can vote differently than the people. Our federal legislation comes from a republican process. Our representatives make the decisions regardless of what the people want. Our local legislation comes from a democratic process. The majority wins.
On a local level, I can choose to live in a state where the majority of people have values that match mine (and in fact I recently moved to a new state for that very reason). On a federal level, I have no choice.

 

[LuisDantas]

Would it be fair to say that social stability and established central authority are important values for a typical Muslim?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Everyone should be valued as a citizen, but not every citizen should get what they want. How many things do we see legal today that were illegal just 10 years ago? Does right and wrong change so easily? Some people call it progression. I don't. A group of people wanting to be able to do something does not make it right. That's my problem.

The only things I can think of that have become legal lately are gay marriage and marijuana in some cases. To me, it seems that we're having more restrictions than allowances these days.

A pure democracy is ruled by majority. Every eligible citizen gets a vote and the most votes wins.

No, rule by majority is a not a "pure" democracy since it would go against the democratic principle of equal representation. Majoritarianism and oligarchy are not really democratic because they both disempower segments of the citizenry. Technically, America is really a plutocracy since money rules the day in politics.

 

[TashaN]

One thing that is probably fair to consider is that Islam may be a bit unlike Christianity (or maybe not) when it comes to its divisions and goals.

Christians vary quite a lot, and as a rule do not hesitate a lot in criticizing other Christians when they feel that they are mistaken. Many, perhaps most, do not particularly want to attain a Christian government even when they are the definite majority of their countries.

Well, i think many Muslims in the middle east for instance wish to have a just government which can protect their rights and rights of others, even if it was secular. It's better than the current western-backed dictators. That's why many Muslims in the middle east today see Turkey as a model for a practical and working secular/islamic state. Everybody in the west is all worked up because of sharia and they keep mentioning sharia sharia sharia while all what they know/show about it is just cutting hands and stoning. I think it's ridiculous to see shariah in this way and that might be due to the fact sharia isn't really being practiced anywhere in the world today except partially and those who claim they fully do so are extremists but they aren't, really. I think moderate Muslims are being punished for not practicing the real shariah by shariah being practiced by extremists who misuse it.

So what is shariah law then? you can think of it as a constitution which everybody should abide by and it's the duty of local judges to interpret it in way which fit to modern day in way which doesn't contradict with it's tenet.

 

[icehorse]

This is a little off the topic of *values*, but I thought I'd share my concerns about Sharia. I understand that the sensational ideas of "an eye for an eye" are seldom applied in the West. (Although it seems that some of the more medieval punishments still occur a lot in the ME and in the third world :sad: )

On the other hand, some Muslims immigrate to the West and begin steady efforts to introduce Sharia courts into secular societies. I believe that such courts undermine the constitutions of those societies and simply should not be allowed. Even for situations like divorce and inheritance. Sharia is completely counter to secular government.

Back to values...

In the West, 99.9999% of all Christian preachers do heavy editing of the Bible, especially (but not exclusively), of the OT. For all practical purposes, no Christian these days would advocate killing your neighbor for working on a Sunday, no one would advocate killing your wife for adultery. (Although of course murder does happen.)

What this means is that Christians have applied some set of values to how they use the Bible.

Now getting back to Islam, I have heard many Muslims say that Christians have corrupted their Bible and that their religions have become impure. Muslims often say that the Quran has not been corrupted and is pure. Further, *for the most part* (not entirely), interpretations of the Quran exist in the Hadith, which are also, for the most part, almost as old as the Quran.

So what I see is this clash between the values that existed in the ME 1400 years ago, which are viewed as unalterable, and the values of modern society.

This is why I ask about the values of moderate Muslims. I'm really curious to know how (or if), you blend together these two sets of distinctly different value systems?

I guess one of the assumptions I make here is that we all know that some small percentage of modern Muslims are quite violent. I don't know what name is preferred, sometimes these Muslims are called "extremists". To me this would be very similar to a modern Christian who was an "Old Testament Absolutist". (And I think a few such people exist.)

So as I read the Quran, I see it as very similar to the OT. The only difference is that very few people are "OT Absolutists", but many Muslims might be called "Quran Absolutists".

So again, I'm really curious to understand the values of Muslims who would not consider themselves to be "Quran Absolutists".

Did that make my questions clearer or muddier?

 

[LuisDantas]

So again, I'm really curious to understand the values of Muslims who would not consider themselves to be "Quran Absolutists".

I'm not sure this can be made to work. There are those who say that the Quran is not the equivalent of the Bible in Islam, but rather the equivalent to Jesus.

I think that is an useful comparison.

From what I gather, it makes no sense for someone to claim to be a Muslim yet not to be a Quran Absolutist. Part of being a Muslim is believing the Quran to be perfect and absolutely trustworthy, absolutely wise in its contents.

If anything, there is a strong movement in Islam towards getting rid of other influences, including all Hadiths, and focusing only on the Quran itself. Many perceive that as being a step towards a less confused, less conflicted overall situation for the Islamic People.

I don't particularly agree, but maybe I would if I knew more of the current situation.

Maybe we should instead ask about the Wahhabi and/or Salafism movement, that in my understanding many feel to be a strong component of the current internal troubles of the Islamic People - I don't really understand what they are all about, but I have noticed the feeling.

Also, I don't think most Muslims feel very inclined to criticize other people that consider themselves Muslims to outsiders, so that may be a complication. It does not help that they will feel, no doubt correctly, that we will simply not have the means to make a fair judgement of the circunstances (mostly political and economical) that may be pressuring many Muslim communities.

 

[icehorse]

So Luis,

What you say about the view of the Quran is consistent with what I've heard. But it's also clear that most Muslims denounce things like terrorism.

Now I'm no Islamic scholar, but as *I* read the Quran, it seemed to me that if we were to debate a terrorist, we'd be hard-pressed to refute his arguments that his actions are in strict accordance with the book.

So what we see in the world is that:

- Muslims all agree in the perfection of the book
- Muslims have many different interpretations of the book

So - put yet another way - I was wondering whether those varying interpretations might be traced back to varying sets of core values...

 

[LuisDantas]

So Luis,

What you say about the view of the Quran is consistent with what I've heard. But it's also clear that most Muslims denounce things like terrorism.

Of course.

Now I'm no Islamic scholar, but as *I* read the Quran, it seemed to me that if we were to debate a terrorist, we'd be hard-pressed to refute his arguments that his actions are in strict accordance with the book.

I suppose so. That is one of the reasons why I think it is a mistake to lend scripture much significance. Discernment and personal responsibility are far more useful IMO.

So what we see in the world is that:

- Muslims all agree in the perfection of the book

They must. It is not really possible to be a Muslim otherwise.

- Muslims have many different interpretations of the book

So true. I don't think anyone knows that more clearly than the Islamic People themselves.

So - put yet another way - I was wondering whether those varying interpretations might be traced back to varying sets of core values...

I don't see how. For one thing, the core values are derived from the Quran itself. For another, if they could be so resilient, then Islam would not be a particularly strong influence for those groups.

 

[LuisDantas]

The way I see it, Islam is mainly about taking a bet, so to speak, that God exists, manifests itself through the Quran, and has his will represented accurately enough by whatever set of religious authorities a given practicioner accepts as proper.

I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that there is also some degree of assumption, perhaps implicit, that God would not allow one to fall stray on his or her religious path - at least as long as one's wish for being true is sincere.

The result is that there is considerable refuge in one's own group of practicioners, but often enough also a disconfortable combination of mistrust and sense of duty towards other groups that claim common inspiration yet reach too different conclusions.

We see a similar phenomenom among Christians and arguably Jewish People as well.

But Islam is slightly more associated with political stances and situations through its history, and is perhaps a bit too centered on obedience to authority for its own good.

It is simply not too likely to attempt to renew itself by questioning authority, or at least not without significant estrangement and trauma.

Or so it seems to me, anyway. I can hardly claim to speak from direct knowledge.

 

[SkylarHunter]

I live in a country with a lot of Muslims and what I see is that most times there is trouble and violence they are involved. When we look at the world map and pinpoint the countries where there are more wars and unrest, the majority is Muslim.
Since I came to France I find it impossible to believe that Muslims don't love violence. All Muslims? Of course not! Many of them are wonderful, peaceful people that I love and respect. But there are the others, the ones who would convert or kill of non-believers if they could and those are the ones who scare me.
If Muslims are against violence like they like to say, why are the violent Muslims not expelled when they start causing trouble? I see their leaders telling the media how sorry they are and how violent behavior doesn't reflect the Muslim mentality but I don't see them doing something about it.

 

[illykitty]

Well maybe it's because intellectual debate and thought has been stagnate with Muslims lately. It's accept it or you're kafir.

Not really a problem with Islam, more the practitioners.

 

[LuisDantas]

If Muslims are against violence like they like to say, why are the violent Muslims not expelled when they start causing trouble?

Are you sure that would be helpful?

Tempting as the idea may be under some circunstances, it does not sound like it would actually solve anything.

I see their leaders telling the media how sorry they are and how violent behavior doesn't reflect the Muslim mentality but I don't see them doing something about it.

Violence is not easy to solve. A good argument can be made that appeals to compassion and proper behavior are, if not the best way of attempting it, at least a much needed part of it.