What are the values of moderate Muslims?

[TashaN]

So, based on the study I've done, it seems that there *might* be some Islamic values that conflict with Western values. I might well be wrong about these values so I'll present them here so that they can be discussed and corrected:

1 - Islam values the "defense of Islam" more highly than it values freedom of expression.

If a Muslim says: "free speech is great, just don't criticize Muhammad", then it's not free speech.

Can i say the holocaust is a lie, that it didn't happen? and that it was just made up?

2 - Islam values it's scripture more than it does true equality for all people.

While it's true that the West's record on human rights isn't spotless, my opinion is that it's far more progressive than Islam, up to this day. I believe that - in general - Islam is far behind the West in terms of misogyny, anti-Semitism, homophobia, apostasy, and tolerance for other belief systems.

You do realize that Islam isn't a country, right? i don't know how do you compare a religion with a country. Do you have any country in mind?

3 - Islam seeks a totalitarian state more than it defends secular governments.

In other words, Islam seeks to weaken the separation of church and state. Islam seeks to spread Sharia, which is the insertion of religion into other areas of life.

There are others, but this list of three seems like a good starting point...

Muslims don't like totalitarian nor authoritarian governments and i don't know how you reached to this conclusion. it's insane to think someone would love to live under the hell of such government. Our religion itself condemn it. Prophet Mohamed himself said that what we do in our life and how we deal with it is our own business.

 

[ardee2x]

Assume nothing. Moderate Muslims are just like any other religious group. Let me emphasize "Religion". Customs, rituals,so many do-s and do-nots, enough to make you croak. Would it surprise you to learn that many young Muslims are no different then anybody else?

 

[icehorse]

Hi Luis,

I sincerely wish I had your optimism on this topic. Here's just one substantial difference - today- between Christians and their Bible, and Muslims and their Quran:

Today (in the last five years):

- .0001% of Christians would support the act of killing a neighbor who is working on Sunday. (Which is in the Bible.) (I made this statistic up, but evidence supports it.)

- 10-30% of Muslims support suicide bombing against civilians, in the right circumstance.*

* Taken from a recent Pew poll conducted across multiple nations (some Muslim majority, some not, some Western immigrants), in which 38,000 Muslims, speaking in different 80 languages, from all regions of the world, were polled.

This poll revealed many other alarming statistics, but this one should be enough for now.

(And forgive, I don't know if links are allowed in these posts?)

In summary, I think the claim that the Bible is ALSO violent like the Quran, is true, but very misleading in practice, today.

So once again, I circle back to the question of values... and I listed three specific ones as a starting point.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi Luis,

I sincerely wish I had your optimism on this topic.

Where does optimism enter the picture?

Here's just one substantial difference - today- between Christians and their Bible, and Muslims and their Quran:

Today (in the last five years):

- .0001% of Christians would support the act of killing a neighbor who is working on Sunday. (Which is in the Bible.) (I made this statistic up, but evidence supports it.)

- 10-30% of Muslims support suicide bombing against civilians, in the right circumstance.*

* Taken from a recent Pew poll conducted across multiple nations (some Muslim majority, some not, some Western immigrants), in which 38,000 Muslims, speaking in different 80 languages, from all regions of the world, were polled.

This poll revealed many other alarming statistics, but this one should be enough for now.

(And forgive, I don't know if links are allowed in these posts?)

In summary, I think the claim that the Bible is ALSO violent like the Quran, is true, but very misleading in practice, today.

So once again, I circle back to the question of values... and I listed three specific ones as a starting point.

Quite a few Christian (and even atheists) supported the invasion of Iraq. Many support bombing Iran even today.

I'm not sure why you don't see the parallels.

 

[Sunstone]

Quite a few Christian (and even atheists) supported the invasion of Iraq. Many support bombing Iran even today.

I'm not sure why you don't see the parallels.

But...but...Luis, don't you see? Killing innocent civilians in Iraq with bombs was collateral damage. They weren't even really human. But killing innocent civilians with a suicide vest is so, so personal. There is such a huge difference!

 

[LuisDantas]

Come to think of it, can a society that values Seal Team Six and other so-called "black ops" teams have the moral grounds to criticize suicide bombers?

Maybe it is a matter of social conditioning? People in the USA, it seems to me, are used to seeing claims of patriotic need as enough justification for pretty much anything, these days including the creation of unneeded, deeply one-sided wars in foreign soil.

It somehow trumps what should be very obvious religious considerations for the many Christian leaders and soldiers involved.

That is hardly evidence of moral or religious superiority over Muslim communities and their relative, very qualified acceptance of suicide bombers - which is even so limited to around 10% to 30% of all believers.

If anything, it shows that Muslims are overall quite more succesfull at being religiously coherent than Christians. And that superior firepower puts a community's soul in great danger.

 

[icehorse]

Can i say the holocaust is a lie, that it didn't happen? and that it was just made up?

>>> I grew up near Chicago, in the U.S. There is a suburb named Skokie near Chicago. Skokie is a predominately Jewish community. Off and on for several decades, Neo-Nazis have made a point of pre-planned, public marches through Skokie. Of course I believe that this is absolutely abhorrent, revolting, reprehensible behavior. But because I value free speech, I absolutely support the Neo-Nazi's right to march.

>>> Likewise, I can hardly imagine a stance more reprehensible than that of a holocaust denier. But I will defend that person's right to make such a horrible statement.

You do realize that Islam isn't a country, right? i don't know how do you compare a religion with a country. Do you have any country in mind?

>>> Yes TashaN, I realize that Islam is not a country or a race or a culture. (Although I believe that Islam affects cultures, but that's a separate topic.) So, just to name a few regions that I think that such summaries can be made for many Muslim immigrant populations in Europe. Likewise for populations throughout the ME, and throughout Africa. I'm less certain about societies in SE Asia.

Muslims don't like totalitarian nor authoritarian governments and i don't know how you reached to this conclusion. it's insane to think someone would love to live under the hell of such government. Our religion itself condemn it. Prophet Mohamed himself said that what we do in our life and how we deal with it is our own business.

>>> TashaN, are you saying that Islam does not claim to offer a total solution? Including Sharia? Is it not the case that if a country was to become purely Islamic, it would be ruled by religious men and its laws would be Sharia?

 

[icehorse]

Come to think of it, can a society that values Seal Team Six and other so-called "black ops" teams have the moral grounds to criticize suicide bombers?

Maybe it is a matter of social conditioning? People in the USA, it seems to me, are used to seeing claims of patriotic need as enough justification for pretty much anything, these days including the creation of unneeded, deeply one-sided wars in foreign soil.

Luis, I'm trying really hard to follow the "no debating" rule

That said, is it okay for me to respond to statements like this? I would be more than happy to join you in a separate thread to discuss Western interventions. But in summary, I don't think it's quite as black and white as you're making it out to be. (And I'm not coming from being a Western apologist.)

But back to this thread, even if, for the sake of discussion, we were to say that Western interventions have all been entirely unjustified and horrible in every way, wouldn't your argument still reduce to "two wrongs make it right" ?

That is hardly evidence of moral or religious superiority over Muslim communities and their relative, very qualified acceptance of suicide bombers - which is even so limited to around 10% to 30% of all believers.

If anything, it shows that Muslims are overall quite more succesfull at being religiously coherent than Christians. And that superior firepower puts a community's soul in great danger.

Who said anything about moral superiority? I'm trying to get a clear understanding of values.

And yes, I'd agree that Muslims seem to have strong religious coherence.

 

[LuisDantas]

You can most certainly create a new thread in one of the debate areas if you want. Anyone can.

 

[icehorse]

I'm happy to keep this thread on track and discuss values...

I have to summarize and say that so far, when it comes to the tough questions like free speech and equal rights and the separation of church and state, I'm not sure if anyone has come forward...

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't know... I have come to think that debate is needed for understanding to be attained here.

I'm happy to keep this thread on track and discuss values...

I have to summarize and say that so far, when it comes to the tough questions like free speech and equal rights and the separation of church and state, I'm not sure if anyone has come forward...

I don't understand what you mean here, or even if I was supposed to understand it at all.

That might be yet another hint that engaging in full debate might be a good idea.

If you want to move the thread to a debate area, just say so in a new thread in the Site Feedback area.

 

[TashaN]

>>> I grew up near Chicago, in the U.S. There is a suburb named Skokie near Chicago. Skokie is a predominately Jewish community. Off and on for several decades, Neo-Nazis have made a point of pre-planned, public marches through Skokie. Of course I believe that this is absolutely abhorrent, revolting, reprehensible behavior. But because I value free speech, I absolutely support the Neo-Nazi's right to march.

>>> Likewise, I can hardly imagine a stance more reprehensible than that of a holocaust denier. But I will defend that person's right to make such a horrible statement.

I'm afraid that is just your personal stance and doesn't hold water against existing laws which criminalize holocaust denial.

Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

>>> Yes TashaN, I realize that Islam is not a country or a race or a culture. (Although I believe that Islam affects cultures, but that's a separate topic.) So, just to name a few regions that I think that such summaries can be made for many Muslim immigrant populations in Europe. Likewise for populations throughout the ME, and throughout Africa. I'm less certain about societies in SE Asia.

Have a look below please.

Muslim world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

>>> TashaN, are you saying that Islam does not claim to offer a total solution? Including Sharia? Is it not the case that if a country was to become purely Islamic, it would be ruled by religious men and its laws would be Sharia?

No, that's not true. it's up to people, so if they want sharia, then they can have it, and if they want otherwise, that's their choice. Religious people have no say in politics. If they want they can be part of parties or parliman, etc.


EDIT:

You know what?

I have been in RF for a long time and everytime i try to explain to people this issue, they were asking me where is it? show us!

Have you heard of Arab Spring? yeah the one which the US hate because there will be no dictators following what she says. Here is a living example--finally thank God--of what freedom will bring to our Muslim countries.

Tunisia after getting rid of her western-backed dictator finally became a democracy and people decided they don't want sharia. Guess what? islamic parties accepted the choice of people.

Why Tunisia ignored sharia law – Amanpour - CNN.com Blogs

Ghannushi: Turkey is a model that merges Islam and democracy - Today's Zaman, your gateway to Turkish daily news

Rashid al-Ghannushi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are building a Tunisia for all | Rachid Ghannouchi | Comment is free | The Guardian

The majority of Tunisia's population (around 98%) are Muslims while about 1% follow Christianity and the remaining 1% adhere to Judaism or other religions.

Tunisia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also please all of you watch this:

Rached Ghannouchi: On Democracy in Tunisia - YouTube

 

[Pastek]

I live in a country with a lot of Muslims and what I see is that most times there is trouble and violence they are involved. When we look at the world map and pinpoint the countries where there are more wars and unrest, the majority is Muslim.
Since I came to France I find it impossible to believe that Muslims don't love violence. All Muslims? Of course not! Many of them are wonderful, peaceful people that I love and respect. But there are the others, the ones who would convert or kill of non-believers if they could and those are the ones who scare me.
If Muslims are against violence like they like to say, why are the violent Muslims not expelled when they start causing trouble? I see their leaders telling the media how sorry they are and how violent behavior doesn't reflect the Muslim mentality but I don't see them doing something about it.

I'm sorry but in France the muslims who may causes problems ( i guess you're talking about those in prison) are generally into : theft, drugs and things like that which have nothing to do with religion .

Those kind of people are not really into religion, they are as muslims as mexicans drug dealers are christians in Juares.

You have many people who are criminals yet religious in many part of the world.

And as you talk about those who scare you because they would kill you for no beeing a muslim ... well they are not that much in France. Exept for Mohammed Merah, i don't remind anyone of that kind.
So don't know what you are talking about.

I was wondering... why so many Muslims claim not to understand what a moderate Muslim would be?

Is it due to actual lack of understanding, or is it instead a show of respect for other Muslims?

It's like saying we are not fully muslims.
Do you say a "moderate" bouddist, hindu ? That doesn't make sense for the majority of us : we are muslim or we are not.
There's of course extremists, like there is christian extremists but the "others" musn't be called "moderate" as an opposition.

Here is a list of core values that I believe in:

- Honor
- Freedom
- Arts
- Knowledge
- Friendship
- Logic
- Compassion

If you think of yourself as a moderate Muslim, do you hold these same values? If not, could you share your core values?

I don't call myself a "moderate" muslim, just an average muslim.
And of course i hold those values. Why i couldn't ?

You know what you must do ? Take your passport and travel to muslim countries (well don't go to Irak or Syria of course) and you'll see we are like you.

I understand you are an american and don't know many muslims, probably heard of us only 13 years ago, and almost only see violence and clichés about us. But the best thing to do after reading Quran and books is to see by yourself.

I've been in the USA some years ago, without any biased view concerning americans and i've found them very cool. The news and the political tensions are one thing, people are an other thing.

In reality we are just people who believe in God, and try to do our best.
We have unfortunately bad people in our ranks who may harm people for different reasons (of course bad reasons most of time) but that's not the majority.

People say muslims don't denounce terrorism, they say they are against it but that's it.
Not true, don't show us as people who are afraid of the extremists and don't want to criticize some muslims. Like i always see here and there in forums.
Just yesterday there was a debate about terrorism in Tunisia, so if you understand arabic here it is :

[youtube]ERyk3ykp3PU[/youtube]
Ness Nessma News du Lundi 17 Février 2014 - YouTube


Sorry for the long post.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm afraid that is just your personal stance and doesn't hold water against existing laws which criminalize holocaust denial.

Laws against Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We don't have those laws in America. You can deny the Holocaust all you want, wear Nazi symbols, fly Nazi flags, etc.

 

[icehorse]

TashaN -

Your link to the holocaust denial page was quite shocking to me. If such a law was suggested in the U.S. I would be publicly opposed to it. To reiterate, I think holocaust denial is horrible. But I think history has shown us that ANY and EVERY form of censorship is terrifying. I guess you could call my stance on this matter "free speech absolutist".

The thing about censorship is that people tend to focus on the speaker. But we should also consider the listener. If we consider you to be the listener, then if you support censorship what you're saying is that there is someone smarter than you, and you're comfortable having that person decide what you (the listener), can and cannot hear.

Yikes! I don't want anyone to be able to make such decisions for me!

As far as the map of the Muslim world, it is as I expected, no surprises. Did I miss something?

As for Sharia... I have been told by many Muslims that it is not allowed to pick and choose from the Quran. It seems you're saying that Muslims get to choose whether or not to follow the Sharia-oriented passages in the Quran? Personally, I would find that to be great news, it's simply different than what I've been told in the past. Can you clarify?

Pastek - Thank you for your answers! (I don't mind that they're long!)

What do you think about the free speech, equal rights, and no Sharia questions that I asked?

 

[Virus]

all muslims are moderate, islam is a moderate religion, it is the middle part, without any extremes.

 

[Pastek]

What do you think about the free speech, equal rights, and no Sharia questions that I asked?

I think the free speech have limits.

Once i saw on tv racists in the US (maybe from the KKK, not sure), demonstrating and some black people were watching. I was shoking and really sad for them.
It was the first time i saw this kind of thing and never thought it could be possible especially after what black people went through.
Here in France you can't do that, and i'm glad it's like that, because this kind of hate speech lead nowhere and just hurt people and divise the society.

If you speak in term of religion, i support the free speech but also with limits.
I'm ok for the critics but against the insults. It can be Muhammad, Jesus or Buddha i don't understand why people have to go that far if they don't like a religion.

What do you mean if i support equal rights ? Of course i support it.
If you mean if i support everything even like gay mariage : no. It's against my religion and it's not even accepted in many non muslims countries or by force (like what happened in France it was by force).

 

[TashaN]

We don't have those laws in America. You can deny the Holocaust all you want, wear Nazi symbols, fly Nazi flags, etc.

I'm aware of that. I was trying to show that the countries in the West which claim to value free speech are not really doing so entirely. There is some red lines which no one is allowed to cross.

 

[TashaN]

TashaN -

Your link to the holocaust denial page was quite shocking to me. If such a law was suggested in the U.S. I would be publicly opposed to it. To reiterate, I think holocaust denial is horrible. But I think history has shown us that ANY and EVERY form of censorship is terrifying.

Although there is no such law in the US, but everybody knows you can't really deny the holocaust in the US in public and get away with it.

If you have time you might have a look at an old thread of mine discussing this issue with members back in 2007--yeah i'm that old here --and you might be surprised how heated the debate was, and how Americans, Canadians, and others responded.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...y-revisionist-historian-holocaust-denier.html

I guess you could call my stance on this matter "free speech absolutist".

The thing about censorship is that people tend to focus on the speaker. But we should also consider the listener. If we consider you to be the listener, then if you support censorship what you're saying is that there is someone smarter than you, and you're comfortable having that person decide what you (the listener), can and cannot hear.

Yikes! I don't want anyone to be able to make such decisions for me!

So we have a dilemma in this discussion now, don't you think?

Will you compare Muslim societies values to Western societies values? or it will be your values only against Muslims values?

While i understand well and accept fully that two wrongs don't make a right, but on the other hand, it does make a point that no one is perfect and we all have our good stuff and bad stuff which we have to deal with and work on for a brighter future and that no one is better than the other. But if it was the later then it will just be a personal stance and not a society against another society.

As far as the map of the Muslim world, it is as I expected, no surprises. Did I miss something?

Muslims are all over the world. Not even half of them are in the Middle East. Got my point?

As for Sharia... I have been told by many Muslims that it is not allowed to pick and choose from the Quran. It seems you're saying that Muslims get to choose whether or not to follow the Sharia-oriented passages in the Quran?

Personally, I would find that to be great news, it's simply different than what I've been told in the past. Can you clarify?

Of course they can't pick and choose from the Quran. People get to vote either they want to implement sharia or have a full secular system, and Tunisia chose the later as i pointed out in my previous post.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's like saying we are not fully muslims.
Do you say a "moderate" bouddist, hindu ? That doesn't make sense for the majority of us : we are muslim or we are not.
There's of course extremists, like there is christian extremists but the "others" musn't be called "moderate" as an opposition.

It seems to me now that there is some need of better understanding of the usual Muslim perspectives before some useful conclusions about violence commited under claims of Islamic inspiration can be attained.

TashaN helped me some on this matter, but I want to go a bit further. One of the obstacles is that the temptation of making direct comparisons with our experience with Christians lead us into mistaken conclusions.

For instance, a few posts ago the suggestion was made that somehow there might be Muslims that did not take the Quran quite as seriously.

Now, I am hardly an expert, but I do not think that can really work, even on paper. It would be in effect expecting at least some Muslims to both believe that the Quran is the perfect and highly sacred gift from God to direct humanity away from mistaken paths and that somehow at the same time it is not really very healthy to take it too seriously.

I may be misrepresenting Muslim understanding, typical or otherwise, and I invite all of you, particularly the Muslims, to correct me freely. But from where I stand right now and by my honest current understanding, that sure make no sense.

Now, I do not mean to imply that Islam is perfect, nor that there are no Muslims in the wrong. I think that violence, xenophoby and hostility that claims to be at the service of Islam are grave problems, for Muslims more so than for anyone else.

But if fruitful discussion of the matter is to be had, we must first build a mutually understandable and acceptable vocabulary and concepts. And the idea that such problems are caused chiefly by the Quran with no significant influence from political, demographic, historical and military factors is one that I have a very hard time taking seriously. It just doesn't fly with what I know of Muslims.

So I ask of you, Pastek, of you, Virus, TashaN, and anyone else with a better understanding of Muslim culture and values than me, please help us in understanding not only that things are different with Muslims, but also how and why it is so. The current lack of understanding does no one any good service.