Salaam. That was a lovely post, cocolia42.
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What are the values of moderate Muslims?
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
Farrukh
Active Member
There is little problem with some scholars who have no knowledge of Science, I've seen this problem especially in Madrassas(islamic schools) where old style of education is used, they don't accept modern things quickly.
i think moderate Muslims are those who are ready to accept new things, and don't want to stick to those things that have nothing to do with religion.
I am primarily a secularist. When I study the last 1400 years of history I see both Christianity and Islam both being violent, brutal and barbaric. I think it's dishonest for a Christian to paint a rosy picture of Christian history and I think it's dishonest for Muslims to paint a rosy picture of Islamic history. I've read accounts claiming that BOTH religions have over 200 million deaths on their bloody hands.
The thing we have to worry about now, in 2014, is that we must evolve past the kind of behavior that all of our ancestors demonstrated over the last 1400 years. We're all on this fragile planet together. I for one am spending my precious time on this website because I want to do my part to make the world a safer place for my children and grandchildren and so on.
So I think it's a waste of time to try to paint a rosy picture of history. Far better to acknowledge the past and try to improve. No?
All of this is yet another reason why I'm being so persistent about core values. It strikes me that a person's core values play a large role in how they will behave in 2014. Will you defend free speech, or will you join a street riot if someone makes a cartoon of your prophet? Will you support freedom for all or will you cheer when a person is hanged for being gay?
As Farrukh mentioned, will you acknowledge that you CAN mix fresh water and salt water, as science proves, or will you fall back on your scripture?
These questions can all be looked at from the perspective of values...
Pastek
Sunni muslim
As it was already said, no muslim will have the same answer.
Hi Pastek,
Of course that's true. No two Christians would have exactly the same set of answers, nor would any two secularists. That said, we can draw statistically useful conclusions about Christians and secularists today. For example, it's mostly true that:
- Most modern Christians disregard most of the OT
- Most modern Christians do not take "an eye for an eye" as a core value
- Most modern Christians do not promote blasphemy laws.
- Most modern Christians do not believe that apostasy should be punishable.
- Most modern Christians do not believe in wife beating.
And so on...
I think the world would be a better place if we knew how "most" Muslims weigh in on issues like these. And perhaps we could only draw such conclusions on a regional basis? That would still be useful. For example if we could say: "Most Muslims in the ME believe X" or "Most Muslims in SE Asia believe Y", we'd all understand each other better. No?
Of course that's true. No two Christians would have exactly the same set of answers, nor would any two secularists. That said, we can draw statistically useful conclusions about Christians and secularists today. For example, it's mostly true that:
- Most modern Christians disregard most of the OT
- Most modern Christians do not take "an eye for an eye" as a core value
- Most modern Christians do not promote blasphemy laws.
- Most modern Christians do not believe that apostasy should be punishable.
- Most modern Christians do not believe in wife beating.
And so on...
I think the world would be a better place if we knew how "most" Muslims weigh in on issues like these. And perhaps we could only draw such conclusions on a regional basis? That would still be useful. For example if we could say: "Most Muslims in the ME believe X" or "Most Muslims in SE Asia believe Y", we'd all understand each other better. No?
cocolia42
Active Member
From a religious standpoint, I defend free speech - as long as it is respectful. Someone drawing a cartoon of the Prophet is disrespectful. Therefore, I won't defend that action.
How I respond is not a matter of religion, it's a matter of culture. I'm American. I'll probably complain and get over it.
From a religious standpoint, I believe homosexuality is a sin. I hate the sin, not the sinner. If you're not encouraging others to be homosexual, then it's none of my business. But when you start to teach my children that homosexuality is normal and acceptable, then I have a problem.
And again, how I respond is a matter of culture.
We can tell you what the core values of Islam are. We cannot tell you how Muslims will express those values.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
Hi icehorse, it's not as easy.
Muslims are really attached to their religion i can tell you that they are maybe more traditionnals and take their religion seriously (spirituality is strong, the practice depends) but other than that the culture and the sect may play an important role too.
I don't know what to say concerning the muslims in Pakistan, Malaysia or Bosnia.
How can i say the majority in this part of the world believe this or that if i don't know them ?
Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
Would you find this respectful:
Those who reject (Truth), and follow Islam, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
Would it be respectful if I called you and all other Muslims worse than pigs, rats and maggots ?
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- The verse is a reference to the previous verse. Taking it out of context is cheap polemic at best.
- There is a very real sense in which those who reject evolution despite volumes of evidence and wide-spread scholarly consensus are, indeed, the worst of creatures.
Allah says in the Quran:
Nor did those who were given the Scripture become divided until after there had come to them clear evidence.
And they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah. And that is the correct religion.
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. (Quran 98:4-6)
We don't call people names. Allah told his Prophet and the Muslims to be kind to others and be peaceful but in the eyes of God if someone reached to judgment day and ended up being in hell, and forever? then it means they are the worst ever since many who will enter hell can still go to paradise later on.
Anyone who is sincere in his search for the the truth he won't be of that level whether he is a Muslim or non-Muslim. The verse talks about those who intentionally disbelieve.
Nevertheless, it is childish to think of this verse as an insult like pigs and all sort of these things. Worst not in term of being human or non-human but worse in term of statues on the day of judgement. Don't forget that Allah himself is the one who created us and told us how perfect he created us as human beings.
He created the heavens and earth in truth and formed you and perfected your forms; and to Him is the [final] destination. (Quran 64:3)
I don't think anyone who fail to enter paradise will be anything but the worst since he/she missed entering paradise. Even in paradise itself there are many types of statues, there are the best and there are those who would barely make it, and those who are perfect in the highest statues, and so on.
Only you can choose your destiny, but in this life, i really won't bother to label anyone anything since i personally don't know whether i'll end up in heaven or hell.
So it's not for any human being to judge who is good and who is the worst.
I hope that answered your question, and Allah knows best.
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Truthisnotyourenemy
Member
People who accept evolution don't call Muslims worst of creatures for not believing in it and don't call them deaf, dumb and blind who are evil.
Nor are they considered enemies who should suffer for eternity.
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It really depend on you whether you want to ask something respectfully in order to answer you accordingly or to simply to be a troll. you don't have to accept our answers and we can agree to disagree but making such accusations against Islam is not helping, and it even make you look really bad. It's up to you from now on how you want to proceed.
cocolia42
Active Member
Yes, I would find that respectful. Because this is not a person calling another person worse than pigs, rats and maggots. This is scripture. It is no different than
"...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."
Now, if someone were to walk right up to you and call you a pig, then that would be disrespectful.
You might recall that several years ago the Pew research group polled 38,000 Muslims from all over the world. Here are a few summary results:
- About 50% want Sharia to be the law (this ranges from 8% - 99% from country to country)
- About 10% say suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified
- About 50% say Western culture harms morality
- About 50% believe there is no conflict between religion, science, and modern society
I am not an expert on Islam, but I have put some serious hours into studying it. I'd say I know more about Islam than most Westerners. To me, the results I posted above are very much inline with what I think I know about Islam. The results are also very different than they would be if non-Muslims had been polled.
To me, this means that we can draw some "most Muslims believe X" kinds of conclusions. To me, even allowing for different interpretations of Islam, we can find some common core values.
cocolia42
Active Member
REALLY? Let's look at what you just posted...
Notice the bold part of the quote. This is evidence that culture has more to do with these values than Islam. And I'm sure you will get the same kind of variations with other questions as well.
I'm skeptical about how the research was conducted and how the way they arrived at their conclusion.
Aside from that, here are my views:
- when it comes to Sharia law it's just like any other law and people can vote whether they want it or not.
- suicide bombing of civilians is not condoned under any circumstances but during battles and when fighting other combatants those who sacrifice their lives are patriotic in all religions and all systems and all societies. The common one which we see now of harming civilians is an unforgivable crime.
- Western values harm morality? well those who don't live in the West and responded, where did they get their Western experience from? movies?
- the last of course i agree there is no conflict and the only conflict is our lack of understanding and lack of proper interpretation.
Ho cocolia42,
Remember I said that I was providing summaries! To be more specific:
Percentage of Muslims who favor making Sharia the law of the land:
- 75% in SE Asia
- 85% in South Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan...)
- 75% in the ME and northern Africa
- 60% in sub-Saharan Africa
As you can see these are a collection of many different cultures.
If you google "pew Muslims" you can read the details yourself.
Remember I said that I was providing summaries! To be more specific:
Percentage of Muslims who favor making Sharia the law of the land:
- 75% in SE Asia
- 85% in South Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan...)
- 75% in the ME and northern Africa
- 60% in sub-Saharan Africa
As you can see these are a collection of many different cultures.
If you google "pew Muslims" you can read the details yourself.
Would you please supply a link?
This is both laughable and pathetic.
Given that you've "put some serious hours into studying it", what results do you think you might get if you were to poll the Muslim population of Chicagoland? Similar? And if not, why not? Because they are not 'true' Muslims?
Correlation is not causation, and what you posture as serious study strikes me as little more than an eager attempt to feed your own confirmation bias bolstered by an implicit No True Scotsman fallacy.
… and accurate. Now, are you going to address the questions or scurry away?