What are the values of moderate Muslims?

[icehorse]

Jayhawker,

I'm not going to sign up to defend an assertion I didn't make. Tell me what your question is. If you need clarification on what I'm saying, please ask.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jayhawker,

I'm not going to sign up to defend an assertion I didn't make. Tell me what your question is. If you need clarification on what I'm saying, please ask.

Nice try. What I in fact asked was ,,,

Would you please supply a link?

[and]

Given that you've "put some serious hours into studying it", what results do you think you might get if you were to poll the Muslim population of Chicagoland? Similar? And if not, why not? Because they are not 'true' Muslims?

Answer the questions or run from them. Either works for me ...

 

[icehorse]

Jayhawker,

I already said that all you have to do is google "pew muslims". I have asked several times what the policy here is about providing links, I have not yet received an answer.

Given that you've "put some serious hours into studying it", what results do you think you might get if you were to poll the Muslim population of Chicagoland? Similar? And if not, why not? Because they are not 'true' Muslims?

Jayhawker - this is asked an answered on your part... But I'll do my best with your ill-formed, "putting words in my mouth" question.

I actually don't know how Muslims living in Chicagoland might respond. That's exactly why I started this thread.

Let me ask you for clarification... when you say 'true' Muslim, I'm hearing sarcasm. But I'll grant you respect you haven't granted me, and ask you to clarify what you meant?

Thanks

 

[cocolia42]

Ho cocolia42,

Remember I said that I was providing summaries! To be more specific:

Percentage of Muslims who favor making Sharia the law of the land:

- 75% in SE Asia
- 85% in South Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan...)
- 75% in the ME and northern Africa
- 60% in sub-Saharan Africa

As you can see these are a collection of many different cultures.

If you google "pew Muslims" you can read the details yourself.

Why did you neglect to mention the rest?

- 18% in Southern-Eastern Europe
- 12% in Central Asia

That's a BIG difference. There is a significant difference in numbers when you look at individual results from Southern-Eastern Europe and Central Asia as compared to SE Asia, South Asia, ME and Northern Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa.

CULTURE.

In fact, the entire poll suggests what we've all been saying. You cannot say what a "moderate" or "average" Muslim values because those values are highly influenced by their culture.

 

[icehorse]

Hi cocolia42,

First of all, the regions I listed are where most Muslims live. So for ALL Muslims,

- 62% live in S and SE Asia
- 20% live in the ME and north Africa
- 15% live in sub-Saharan Africa.

I listed those stats because they account for the vast majority (97%) of all Muslims.
-

Earlier I said:

For example, it's mostly true that:

- Most modern Christians disregard most of the OT
- Most modern Christians do not take "an eye for an eye" as a core value
- Most modern Christians do not promote blasphemy laws.
- Most modern Christians do not believe that apostasy should be punishable.
- Most modern Christians do not believe in wife beating.

And so on...

And no one disputed those generalizations.

It seems to me that on the one hand you're happy to agree that all Muslims must agree that the Quran is from Allah and Muhammad is the role model. But then it seems you're unwilling to make any generalizations about how those two ideas (the Quran and Muhammad), affect the real world. Of course we understand that by definition generalizations are imperfect. But they are not without meaning or usefulness.

 

[TashaN]

I have asked several times what the policy here is about providing links, I have not yet received an answer.

Here is your answer below:

7. Referencing, Quotations, Videos, and Links
To quote another author you should identify the Title, Author, and Publisher, when available. You may insert a short paragraph or one or two sentences from it into your post, showing a link to the source. Plagiarism is illegal and never permitted. When using material in this way, you must indicate the significance of the material in your own words. Posts that just show a link and source material will be removed. This rule will be enforced with in our understanding of intellectual property rights and fair use.

Religious Education Forum - FAQ: vBulletin FAQ

 

[icehorse]

Thanks TashaN,

I'm not quite sure I understand the rules, but I'll give it a try:

Here is a link to the Pew Research website, and specifically to a recent world-wide poll of 38,000 Muslims: The World

Here is a link to a Wikipedia page that discusses where the world's Muslims live:

Muslim world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Let me ask you for clarification... when you say 'true' Muslim, I'm hearing sarcasm. But I'll grant you respect you haven't granted me, and ask you to clarify what you meant?

Thanks

If Attitude-A predominates among the large population of Muslims in Culture-A, and
if counter Attitude-B predominates among the small population of Muslims in Culture-B,

then the options are

• that the attitudes reflect culture rather than necessary and inherent characteristics of islam, or
• that one of the two populations are not "true Muslims."

I suggest you look up the "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" and the "no true Scotsman" fallacies.

 

[icehorse]

Jayhawker,

Now you've introduced a false dilemma fallacy into your mix of strawman fallacies - nicely done!

More specifically, I neither proposed the "a" or "b" option, nor do I believe they are the only options.

What your posts are demonstrating to me is that you think you know where I'm headed, but in reality you don't know where I'm headed. So far you've made a few guesses which have been incorrect. This is a slow path and one that I'm already weary of. There are an infinite number of motivations I might have for being in this conversation. By your process you have reduced that number to infinity - 3.

Or, you could take my word for it.

I see behaviors in the world. I've read the most important part of the scripture. I've had many discussions with many Muslims online. (Again, it's not practical for me to drive 100 miles to talk to Muslims in person.) I've looked at the polls. I've read books.

I can't make all the pieces fit together, so I'm asking very sincerely about the values of moderate Muslims. It really is about furthering understanding.

 

[icehorse]

Here's what I'm taking away from this discussion. Admittedly it's a summary, so let me know if I've got any of the major themes wrong:

- Any devout Muslim must agree that:
- the Quran is the perfect word from Allah
- Muhammad is meant to be the role model for Muslims
- The Pew poll shows that Muslims from Africa through the ME and all the way to SE Asia largely agree on many ideas that are also part of the scripture.
- Despite these commonalities across 97% of Muslims, no one here has yet offered even a tentative set of core values for Muslims

This seems odd to me. It was pretty easy for me to list some of my core values at the beginning of this thread, but no Muslims have offered theirs. (To be fair, we've seen a few, isolated values mentioned here and there.) Further, when it comes to difficult issues in the 21st century, no one has offered what a basic Islamic perspective would be.

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that it's hard to get the basics of Islam to fit into the 21st century. I welcome differing opinions.

 

[cocolia42]

Here's what I'm taking away from this discussion. Admittedly it's a summary, so let me know if I've got any of the major themes wrong:

- Any devout Muslim must agree that:
- the Quran is the perfect word from Allah
- Muhammad is meant to be the role model for Muslims

Agreed

- The Pew poll shows that Muslims from Africa through the ME and all the way to SE Asia largely agree on many ideas that are also part of the scripture.

This poll makes no sense to me. I'm not a mathematician. Maybe you can explain how this works...
According to the poll, Southern-Eastern Europe is made up of 4 countries: Russia, Kosovo, Boznia-Herz., and Albania.
According to the poll, the number of people polled in each country was
Russia - 2704
Kosovo - 1485
Bosnia-Herz. - 1605
Albania - 1032
Total = 6826
According to the poll, approximately 51% of Muslims from Russia (1379) and 51% of Muslims from Kosovo (757) said divorce is morally acceptable.

If 100% of Muslims from Bosnia-Herz. (1605) and 100% of Muslims from Albania (1032) said divorce is morally acceptable, that would be a total of 4773 people, or 70%.

According to the poll, 86% say women have a right to divorce.

How does that work?

- Despite these commonalities across 97% of Muslims, no one here has yet offered even a tentative set of core values for Muslims

Where on earth did you get 97% from?

This seems odd to me. It was pretty easy for me to list some of my core values at the beginning of this thread, but no Muslims have offered theirs. (To be fair, we've seen a few, isolated values mentioned here and there.) Further, when it comes to difficult issues in the 21st century, no one has offered what a basic Islamic perspective would be.

Core Values of Islam:

• Justice
  • 5:8 O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

• • 35:18 And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allah is the [final] destination.
• Sanctity of Life
  • 5:32 Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
• God’s Commands Over Man’s Desires
  • 5:44 Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
• Kind Words
  • 49:11-12 O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule [other] women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by [offensive] nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after [one's] faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
    O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
  • 4:148 Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing
• Privacy
  • 49:12; 24:27 O you who have believed, do not enter houses other than your own houses until you ascertain welcome and greet their inhabitants. That is best for you; perhaps you will be reminded.
• Freedom of Religion
  • 2:256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
• Charity
  • 51:19 And from their properties was [given] the right of the [needy] petitioner and the deprived.
  • 2:177 Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
• Participation in Government
  • 42:38 And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend.
• Integrity
  • 2:177 Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
• Righteousness
  • 49:13 O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.
• Patience/Steadfastness
  • 3:146 And how many a prophet [fought and] with him fought many religious scholars. But they never lost assurance due to what afflicted them in the cause of Allah , nor did they weaken or submit. And Allah loves the steadfast.
• Mercy
  • 3:133-134 And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous
    Who spend [in the cause of Allah ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon the people - and Allah loves the doers of good;
• Humility
  • 31:18-19 And do not turn your cheek [in contempt] toward people and do not walk through the earth exultantly. Indeed, Allah does not like everyone self-deluded and boastful.
    And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."
• Honor Your Parents
  
  • 17:23-24 And your Lord has decreed that you not worship except Him, and to parents, good treatment. Whether one or both of them reach old age [while] with you, say not to them [so much as], "uff," and do not repel them but speak to them a noble word.
    And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, "My Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up [when I was] small."
• Frugality
  • 17:26 And give the relative his right, and [also] the poor and the traveler, and do not spend wastefully.
• Knowledge
  • The Prophet, alallahu alayhi wa sallam, said: "Ask Allah for beneficial knowledge and seek refuge with Allah from knowledge that is of no benefit."
• Community
  • The Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa sallam, said:
    "He is not a believer who eats his fill when his neighbor beside him is hungry."
    "He does not believe whose neighbors are not safe from his injurious conduct."

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that it's hard to get the basics of Islam to fit into the 21st century. I welcome differing opinions.

The basics of Islam fit perfectly into the 21st century and any other century. God's commands do not change as people's desires do.

 

[LuisDantas]

The basics of Islam fit perfectly into the 21st century and any other century. God's commands do not change as people's desires do.

For all I know you have just spoken the exact truth (although I still disagree, but that is just me).

All the same, it stands to reason that society, family, needs and priorities changed a whole lot in about 1400 years, and Islamic practice may naturally have to adjust to some degree.

I know that most Muslims don't really see much sense in that. It is still my sincere belief.

 

[TashaN]

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that it's hard to get the basics of Islam to fit into the 21st century. I welcome differing opinions.

Wow, what a provocative conclusion.

You did agree with me at several occasions that your personal values are at odd with the values of your country, so i don't quite understand where you are coming from.

May i ask please, what are exactly the 21st century values and who is in charge of defining it?

 

[Assad91]

What exactly is wrong with Muslims wanting sharia in Muslim majority countries?

 

[LuisDantas]

What exactly is wrong with Muslims wanting sharia in Muslim majority countries?

That is in fact a very good question. Understandings of what Sharia is vary quite a lot.

 

[Assad91]

That is in fact a very good question. Understandings of what Sharia is vary quite a lot.

I believe people of a nation deserve the right to choose their own governing. Free of coercion by other nations. Of course this is a lostbelief as it seems important to secure interest, even if it involves setting up dictators

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe people of a nation deserve the right to choose their own governing. Free of coercion by other nations. Of course this is a lostbelief as it seems important to secure interest, even if it involves setting up dictators

I don't think I will ever fully understand such reasoning, seeing how nations are so arbitrary anyway.

As for being free of coercion... well, that is just not possible in this world and this reality we live in. I'm not sure I would even want it otherwise. Things such as slavery and Apartheid must be challenged.

 

[Assad91]

I don't think I will ever fully understand such reasoning, seeing how nations are so arbitrary anyway.

As for being free of coercion... well, that is just not possible in this world and this reality we live in. I'm not sure I would even want it otherwise. Things such as slavery and Apartheid must be challenged.

It's still better to leave it up to the natives to choose change. Not foreign powers will usually have s different agenda than that which they reveal.

But I think we will be getting too off topic.

More on topic, I could not care if foreign Muslims in, say, KSA live with Sharia or not. That is their decision.

 

[icehorse]

cocolia42 -

The 97% came from the second link I gave.

As far as the values you list, I appreciate the time you took to assemble that list, but how did you arrive at it? It strikes that your list (which is very nice by-the-way), came more from you, than it did your scripture.

I ask, because I could use many, many verses from the Quran to put forth values opposite to many that you list.

TashaN -

Good question, I'm not sure that I ever claimed that there were a set of 21st century values, but perhaps there are themes such as:

- human rights (equality for women, gays, Jews and so on)
- secularism (the separation of church and state)
- freedom of religion and freedom from religion (e.g. no penalty or threat for apostates)
- free speech, especially when it's controversial

Assad91 -

As Luis mentioned, it's hard to arrive at a definition of Sharia. But there are some aspects of it that seem do undo a lot of progress that humanity has made. First off, Sharia tends towards absolute power and totalitarianism. History shows us that these types of systems move quickly towards corruption and massive abuse of human rights. People must be free to speak their minds, disagree with their leaders, leave their religion, and peacefully replace leaders who don't serve the people. Sharia stands in opposition to these ideas, instead claiming to be perfect and demonstrating no tolerance for criticism.

Of course I agree that Luis brings up two good examples when he mentions slavery and apartheid.

 

[Assad91]

" Assad91 -

As Luis mentioned, it's hard to arrive at a definition of Sharia. But there are some aspects of it that seem do undo a lot of progress that humanity has made. First off, Sharia tends towards absolute power and totalitarianism. History shows us that these types of systems move quickly towards corruption and massive abuse of human rights. People must be free to speak their minds, disagree with their leaders, leave their religion, and peacefully replace leaders who don't serve the people. Shariastands in opposition to these ideas, instead claiming to be perfect and demonstrating no tolerance for criticism.

Of course I agree that Luis brings up two good examples when he mentions slavery and apartheid."

Again, it's up to the natives. Not someone
Faraway and ignorant of the culture, people, etc.

The people in Iran seemed to know what they were doing when they replaced the Shah and adopted Wilayat al Faqih.