What came before the Big Bang?

[John Martin]

What I am really asking is: are we already one with God, only that we fail to realize that fact? IOW, there is nothing to 'merge' with or 'ascend' to, nor achieve. Divine union is already the case. Any effort to get with God only takes us further away, the assumption being that we are somehow separated and must reintegrate with God.

Yes, we are already one with God and the purpose of our spiritual life is to realize this truth. God is like water and our consciousness is like ice. There are essentially one but functionally different. Ice being solid may imagine being a stone. This is ignorance. When the ice starts to melt it may go through different identifications until it realizes that it is nothing but water.There is nothing to merge or ascend or achieve. If the ice in the beginning itself realizes that it is water then there is no effort necessary. But it is rare that people can have that realization. So we need a process of purifying us from ignorance.

 

[Thief]

What I am really asking is: are we already one with God, only that we fail to realize that fact? IOW, there is nothing to 'merge' with or 'ascend' to, nor achieve. Divine union is already the case. Any effort to get with God only takes us further away, the assumption being that we are somehow separated and must reintegrate with God.

Already one with God?

Have you seen the news lately?
Taken a good look at your fellow man?
Try looking in the mirror.
And 'you'.....are divine?

 

[godnotgod]

Already one with God?

Have you seen the news lately?
Taken a good look at your fellow man?
Try looking in the mirror.
And 'you'.....are divine?

Yes, already one with God, but asleep, and thinking the dream is reality, lost in Identification. The result is the daily news.

 

[Thief]

Yes, already one with God, but asleep, and thinking the dream is reality, lost in Identification.

Dude!....

 

[godnotgod]

Dude!....

Well, think about it. The conflict in the world is the result of our taking ourselves and the illusion seriously, and then acting upon it, with disastrous results.

 

[Ouroboros]

God in the Old Testament did a lot worse things than I've ever done. If moral actions are any indication of divinity, than yeah, I think I'm more divine than Bible-God.

 

[Thief]

Well, think about it. The conflict in the world is the result of our taking ourselves and the illusion seriously, and then acting upon it, with disastrous results.

I have thought about it.

I don't think of myself as divine.
You're not divine either.

God gave Man dominion.
Might seem a bit risqué...but how else to have unique spirits?
Each with his set of thought and feelings.

Yes you are.

 

[godnotgod]

I have thought about it.

I don't think of myself as divine.
You're not divine either.

God gave Man dominion.
Might seem a bit risqué...but how else to have unique spirits?
Each with his set of thought and feelings.

Yes you are.

Are you saying spirit is not divine?

 

[Thief]

Are you saying spirit is not divine?

No...I said you are not.

 

[godnotgod]

No...I said you are not.

C'mon, Thief. Stop playijng mind games!

You just got through saying:

God gave Man dominion.
Might seem a bit risqué...but how else to have unique spirits?

The spiritual and the divine are the same.

 

[John Martin]

No...I said you are not.

Who are human beings, human or divine? This question plagued the thinkers of religions. There are two important spiritual traditions: Wisdom and Prophetic traditions. Hinduism believes in God and it belongs to the wisdom tradition. There are four important answers in Hinduism:
1. Human beings and creation are completely and essentially different from God( They are more like creatures but not created).
2.Human beings and creation are the manifestation of God or emanation from God.
3. Human beings and creation are essentially one with God.
4. Human beings and creation are non-different from God but also different.

Judaism,Christianity,Islam and Bahai belong to the prophetic tradition.There is only one position in these religions:
1. Human beings and creation are completely different from God. They are creatures of God and created by God out of nothing.

Christianity has two positions: one for Christians and one for Jesus Christ.
1. Christians or human beings are creatures of God and created by God.
2. Jesus Christ is not a creatures of God but incarnation of God and ultimately one with God but he is also fully human. We can see four aspects in Jesus at the same time.
a. Jesus is fully a human being
b. Jesus is the incarnation of God, he is the son of God.
c. Jesus Christ is one with God, the Father and I are one.
d. Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine.

Who are we, really? We are also fully human and fully divine. At one level we are one with the divine and another level we are human beings.
Prophetic religions emphasize our humanity and negate our divinity.
Advaita tradition of Hinduism emphasizes our divinity and negates our humanity.

We need to integrate these both aspects, not to emphasize one and negate the other.

 

[godnotgod]

Prophetic religions emphasize our humanity and negate our divinity.
Advaita tradition of Hinduism emphasizes our divinity and negates our humanity.

We need to integrate these both aspects, not to emphasize one and negate the other.

One more reason why I love Zen, where the Ordinary and the Miraculous are one and the same.

For example:

A new monk asks Master Joshu,

‘I’ve just entered the monastery. Please teach me.’

Joshu enquires, ‘Have you eaten your porridge?’

The monk replies, ‘I have eaten.’

Joshu says, ‘Then you had better wash your bowl.’

Upon hearing this, the monk became enlightened.
*****


Before Enlightenment, sweeping the floor;
after Enlightenment, sweeping the floor.
*****

and.....

'Chop wood, carry water;
How miraculous!'

 

[Ouroboros]

One more reason why I love Zen, where the Ordinary and the Miraculous are one and the same.

For example:

A new monk asks Master Joshu,

‘I’ve just entered the monastery. Please teach me.’

Joshu enquires, ‘Have you eaten your porridge?’

The monk replies, ‘I have eaten.’

Joshu says, ‘Then you had better wash your bowl.’

Upon hearing this, the monk became enlightened.
*****


Before Enlightenment, sweeping the floor;
after Enlightenment, sweeping the floor.
*****

and.....

'Chop wood, carry water;
How miraculous!'

I totally agree with this! I didn't know it was zen. It's just a view that makes more sense and gives more peace.

 

[Thief]

Who are human beings, human or divine? This question plagued the thinkers of religions. There are two important spiritual traditions: Wisdom and Prophetic traditions. Hinduism believes in God and it belongs to the wisdom tradition. There are four important answers in Hinduism:
1. Human beings and creation are completely and essentially different from God( They are more like creatures but not created).
2.Human beings and creation are the manifestation of God or emanation from God.
3. Human beings and creation are essentially one with God.
4. Human beings and creation are non-different from God but also different.

Judaism,Christianity,Islam and Bahai belong to the prophetic tradition.There is only one position in these religions:
1. Human beings and creation are completely different from God. They are creatures of God and created by God out of nothing.

Christianity has two positions: one for Christians and one for Jesus Christ.
1. Christians or human beings are creatures of God and created by God.
2. Jesus Christ is not a creatures of God but incarnation of God and ultimately one with God but he is also fully human. We can see four aspects in Jesus at the same time.
a. Jesus is fully a human being
b. Jesus is the incarnation of God, he is the son of God.
c. Jesus Christ is one with God, the Father and I are one.
d. Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine.

Who are we, really? We are also fully human and fully divine. At one level we are one with the divine and another level we are human beings.
Prophetic religions emphasize our humanity and negate our divinity.
Advaita tradition of Hinduism emphasizes our divinity and negates our humanity.

We need to integrate these both aspects, not to emphasize one and negate the other.

I have no dogmatic faith.
The above does not apply to me.

God and Man are separate....He made the situation.....on purpose.

 

[Thief]

I totally agree with this! I didn't know it was zen. It's just a view that makes more sense and gives more peace.

And the Lord will sweep His floor and garnish it.....so I've read.

He won't care the dust.

Are you dust?

 

[godnotgod]

I have no dogmatic faith.
The above does not apply to me.

God and Man are separate....He made the situation.....on purpose.

...as he spouts yet more dogma! Brazen! (shhhhh....maybe no one will notice...shhhh!)

 

[John Martin]

One more reason why I love Zen, where the Ordinary and the Miraculous are one and the same.

For example:

A new monk asks Master Joshu,

‘I’ve just entered the monastery. Please teach me.’

Joshu enquires, ‘Have you eaten your porridge?’

The monk replies, ‘I have eaten.’

Joshu says, ‘Then you had better wash your bowl.’

Upon hearing this, the monk became enlightened.
*****


Before Enlightenment, sweeping the floor;
after Enlightenment, sweeping the floor.
*****

and.....

'Chop wood, carry water;
How miraculous!'

Our spiritual life is the transformation of ordinary life into extra-ordinary life. For this transformation of our consciousness is very important. We do not begin with it. We need to go through certain purification of our consciousness. It is for this reason Zen students follow rigorous training of meditation, or exercise with koans etc. There is an intermediary path. Before enlightenment we chop wood and after enlightenment also we chop wood but the way we do it different.
First we are human, transient, ordinary. Then we realize we are divine,eternal, extraordinary. When we look at our humanity with the eyes of divinity then our humanity becomes manifestation of eternity. Our ordinary life becomes extraordinary. It is manifesting eternity in time. It is living in the present moment. This is the essence of Zen also Christianity. Jesus took ordinary bread and wine and transformed them into sacred objects. It means to transform our ordinary actions into sacred rituals.

 

[godnotgod]

Jesus took ordinary bread and wine and transformed them into sacred objects.

I don't think so. I think they are merely symbols of flesh and blood at the child/pagan stage of religion, where man still must consume the deity as eucharist in order to gain divine union. Beyond that, the original teachings of Yeshu did not include the consumption of flesh and blood. Divine union was realized via inner spiritual transformation and not via blood sacrifice. This doctrine was most likely imported from Mithraism which overwrote the non-sacrificial teachings of Yeshu, transforming him into the modern Pauline 'Jesus'.

Bread and wine are not transformed into something else; it is man's view that becomes transformed so that he now sees things as they actually are.

'Lest 'ye turn and become 'ye as little children, 'ye shall not enter into Paradise'

 

[`mud]

I am totally and astoundingly amazed at the way you people can turn a science thread into psycholigical and spiritual meaningless crap.
WHAT CAME BEFORE THE "PRETENSIOUS" BANG ?
AND IT WASN'T GOD OR IT'S ANGELS !
Give me a break, babble your salvation myths on other threads.
Go die on the "after death thread" blog, it would be fitting.
~
I guess I should find another blog site, this one smells of well used socks.
~
'mud

 

[John Martin]

I don't think so. I think they are merely symbols of flesh and blood at the child/pagan stage of religion, where man still must consume the deity as eucharist in order to gain divine union. Beyond that, the original teachings of Yeshu did not include the consumption of flesh and blood. Divine union was realized via inner spiritual transformation and not via blood sacrifice. This doctrine was most likely imported from Mithraism which overwrote the non-sacrificial teachings of Yeshu, transforming him into the modern Pauline 'Jesus'.

Bread and wine are not transformed into something else; it is man's view that becomes transformed so that he now sees things as they actually are.

'Lest 'ye turn and become 'ye as little children, 'ye shall not enter into Paradise'

It is true that it is human being's view that is transformed. When the inner view is transformed then what you see as ordinary bread is no longer ordinary bread. It is divine manifestation.
The eucharistic celebration was the original and genius institution of Jesus. It contains the whole truth that Jesus discovered. It represents one hundred percent love of God and one hundred percent love of neighbour. It is elevating our consciousness to the level of divine(love of God) and sharing with others that divine bread( the love of neighbour). I am sorry to disagree with you. It is not imported from Mithraism. It is an original act of Jesus and contains a profound truth for all times. It means every human encounter should be an Eucharistic celebration. It is giving the body of God and receiving the body of God.