What came before the Big Bang?

[factseeker88]

What came before the Big Bang? Do you believe in the Big Bang? >>

No. don't believe anything that cannot be seen or proved, but as a theory the idea is fascinating.

 

[Thief]

I thought this thread was for speculation....what came before the bang?

If responders don't believe that could happen....why even bother with simple denial?

And of course there's that cause and effect idea that has to be ignored.
If it just happened....then our notion of cause and effect is a lie.

 

[godnotgod]

Ah, I see. Should have read your post more closely. You are asking a question more of philosophy than science? You seem to be providing the question and the answer in your own post.

Yes, I suppose I am.

I don't see philosophy and science as being separate. However, it's more that I EXPERIENCE the moment as eternal.

You defined the present as eternity. So why would you ask if there ever was a moment when the present did not exist? According to your definition the answer is obvious. Eternity is, well, eternal. So, no, there can never have been a moment when the present did not exist.

Or, I'm still missing something (not for the first time!).

Sorry for the confusion. I was responding to Thief's allusion to the present moment as being 'fleeting', which means he was still seeing the present moment through the conceptual filter of linear time.

 

[godnotgod]

I thought this thread was for speculation....what came before the bang?

If responders don't believe that could happen....why even bother with simple denial?

And of course there' that cause and effect idea that has to be ignored.
If it just happened....then our notion of cause and effect is a lie.

Maybe just an illusion, not a lie.

 

[Thief]

Maybe just an illusion, not a lie.

So squint a bit harder than you do.

 

[godnotgod]

So squint a bit harder than you do.

Why? So I can make things appear other than what they are?

 

[`mud]

Deviding by infinity...
how many segments will there be...
from any number given as a numeral...
filling all dementions...
and directions.
Did someone mention a "speck" somewhere ?
What direction is infinity,
and from where ?
What's the difference between "eternity" and "infinity",
what's left after the end of each ?
~
where's my meds !
~
`mud

 

[godnotgod]

Deviding by infinity...
how many segments will there be...
from any number given as a numeral...
filling all dementions...
and directions.
Did someone mention a "speck" somewhere ?
What direction is infinity,
and from where ?
What's the difference between "eternity" and "infinity",
what's left after the end of each ?
~
where's my meds !
~
`mud

Who is it that wants to know?

 

[Gordian Knot]

Deviding by infinity...
how many segments will there be...
from any number given as a numeral...
filling all dementions...
and directions.
Did someone mention a "speck" somewhere ?
What direction is infinity,
and from where ?
What's the difference between "eternity" and "infinity",
what's left after the end of each ?
~
where's my meds !
~
`mud

That's an easy one. Your meds are at the pharmacy. You did remember to pick them up, right?

 

[Gordian Knot]

Okay, seriously now. The two terms are close; their definitions do overlap somewhat. They are often thought they can be used interchangeably. Which is not quite correct. Putting aside the similarities between the words, the basic difference between the two words is:

Eternity: A state to which time has no application; timelessness.

Infinity: Well the usual definition is "the state of being infinite". Which isn't a whole lot of help, now is it. What that means, of course, is that we need to define the source word, which is:

Infinite: Limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

Conclusion: Eternity is more a function of time while Infinity is more a function of space (i.e. distance).

It is deeper than that though. Infinity is a space that is beyond measurement. Eternity, however, is not a length of time that cannot be measured. Eternity is timelessness. It is outside of time.

All definitions taken from the Online Oxford Dictionaries.

 

[godnotgod]

Okay, seriously now. The two terms are close; their definitions do overlap somewhat. They are often thought they can be used interchangeably. Which is not quite correct. Putting aside the similarities between the words, the basic difference between the two words is:

Eternity: A state to which time has no application; timelessness.

Infinity: Well the usual definition is "the state of being infinite". Which isn't a whole lot of help, now is it. What that means, of course, is that we need to define the source word, which is:

Infinite: Limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

Conclusion: Eternity is more a function of time while Infinity is more a function of space (i.e. distance).

It is deeper than that though. Infinity is a space that is beyond measurement. Eternity, however, is not a length of time that cannot be measured. Eternity is timelessness. It is outside of time.

All definitions taken from the Online Oxford Dictionaries.

Swami Vivekananda said in one of his lectures[SIZE=-2] [/SIZE] that

'the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space, and causation'

He said that time, space, and causation are like the glass through which the Absolute is seen, and when It is seen on the lower side, It appears as the Universe.

Now Swami Vivekananda's statement that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space and causation allows us to get some interesting information, albeit in negative terms, about what he calls the Absolute. Since it is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time. And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because dividedness and separation occur only in space. And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it. Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements. If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms.


The Equations of Maya

 

[`mud]

"limitless...in space"...interesting container that is placed there...what is "space"...is it nothingness ?
I have to wonder where the last galaxy moves...right before the last bit of nothingness....into infinity.
Hey Knot...very interesting approach....I wonder also...how many "eternities" are in the container of an "infinite" Cosmos.
Hey GNG....since everthing is changing and moving...except nothingness...where is everthing going ?
~
An afterthought..."eternity" depicts afterlife..."infinity" defines nothingness...maybe !
Maybe some religious meaning sneaks in here....and it took only 6 days.
~
'mud

 

[godnotgod]

"limitless...in space"...interesting container that is placed there...what is "space"...is it nothingness ?
I have to wonder where the last galaxy moves...right before the last bit of nothingness....into infinity.
Hey Knot...very interesting approach....I wonder also...how many "eternities" are in the container of an "infinite" Cosmos.
Hey GNG....since everthing is changing and moving...except nothingness...where is everthing going ?
~
An afterthought..."eternity" depicts afterlife..."infinity" defines nothingness...maybe !
Maybe some religious meaning sneaks in here....and it took only 6 days.
~
'mud

See, I think the key to all of this is to realize that it is not real. Not being real, but a manifestation of the real, there is nothing to worry about in terms of what 'contains' what, since an illusion cannot contain anything. In fact all movement is also an illusion, because that which moves is as well. Time, Space, and Causation: all concepts; not real. Only the changeless Absolute that manifests the worlds is real.

1st monk: 'the flag is moving'
2nd monk: 'no, the wind is moving'
3rd monk: 'wrong! flag and wind both are moving!'
passerby: 'ALL wrong!. Your MINDS are moving!'

 

[Thief]

Why? So I can make things appear other than what they are?

And you do....

 

[Thief]

Okay, seriously now. The two terms are close; their definitions do overlap somewhat. They are often thought they can be used interchangeably. Which is not quite correct. Putting aside the similarities between the words, the basic difference between the two words is:

Eternity: A state to which time has no application; timelessness.

Infinity: Well the usual definition is "the state of being infinite". Which isn't a whole lot of help, now is it. What that means, of course, is that we need to define the source word, which is:

Infinite: Limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

Conclusion: Eternity is more a function of time while Infinity is more a function of space (i.e. distance).

It is deeper than that though. Infinity is a space that is beyond measurement. Eternity, however, is not a length of time that cannot be measured. Eternity is timelessness. It is outside of time.

All definitions taken from the Online Oxford Dictionaries.

Allow me to point out...time is not a force or a substance.
It is only a measurement.
A cognitive device created by Man to serve Man.

Otherwise we seem to agree.....any further details?

 

[`mud]

hey GNG,
Ahhhh......the well of an endless pit...nothingness...where everything is relative to itself.
But for inertia, would there be momentum ?
But for causation, would there be motion ?
But for infinite limits, would there be time ?
But for direction, would there be "space" or the Cosmos ?
~
And on and on.
My mind is moving...where's the pharmacy !
~
'mud

 

[godnotgod]

hey GNG,
Ahhhh......the well of an endless pit...nothingness...where everything is relative to itself.
But for inertia, would there be momentum ?
But for causation, would there be motion ?
But for infinite limits, would there be time ?
But for direction, would there be "space" or the Cosmos ?
~
And on and on.
My mind is moving...where's the pharmacy !
~
'mud

Nothingness is the negation of all negation. It is Absolute Nothingness.

"The extension of emptiness is nothingness, the condition of total negation, the no-concept of no-concept. It is emptiness at its most allowing......whereas emptiness is relative, nothingness is absolute, a notion that cannot be conceived and does not have a conceivable counterpart."


Ray Griggs, 'The Tao of Zen'


Whose mind is it that is moving?

 

[Thief]

And from the nothingness came the universe?

 

[Ouroboros]

And from the nothingness came the universe?

Or... it came from somethingness.

Change begets change.

 

[Thief]

Or... it came from somethingness.

Change begets change.

The linear existence you just noted had a beginning.