True, though I am not sure it is necessary to distinguish between corrupt religious leaders and other corrupt leaders as they tend to operate on the same basis.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What Can Atheism Lead To?
- Thread starter Kilgore Trout
- Start date
True, though I am not sure it is necessary to distinguish between corrupt religious leaders and other corrupt leaders as they tend to operate on the same basis.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
footprints
Well-Known Member
Do you know there is a difference between intellectual enlightenment and spiritual enlightenment? This is not meant as put down, just asking a question. Many people are unaware and believe intellectual enlightenment (or perceptional enlightenment born of their own personal life experience) is spiritual enlightenment.
1) A person can constantly question their belief, as you suggest some atheist do. And I can only agree with you some ex-theists did question their beliefs and became atheists due to this questioning and reasoning. The person had a spirtual awakening, not enlightenment, when they moved from theism to atheism. A person who has always been an atheist, has never had this awakening. To reach enlightenment, the theist who had the spiritual awakening and gained the benefit of greater knowledge, must not settle in the comfort zone of atheism, but must continue to press on and gain the rewards of the next awakening stage. Atheism is not the end of the journey, merely the beginning for these people if they choose to take it. Many will settle in the comfort zone of their new knowledge and believe they are enlightened.
2) Religion is the only way to enlightenment. Without religion, be this Buddhism, Hinduism, Spiritual beliefs of ancients cultures et al, nobody would ever know the paths of enlightenment existed at all. A person may gain the knowledge of a path of enlightenment outside of religious (spritual) beliefs and use it outside of these beliefs, it will never change the fact of where they came from and who promoted them to begin with.
At the end of the day, to fully complete any path of spiritual enlightenment, the spirit of the human body, must align with the spirit of the spiritual teacher who implemented it, else enlightenment has never been achieved and Nirvana will never have been reached. Albeit a perceptual creation, born of human intelligence, can suggest the Nirvana state. The human mind has many ways it can play tricks on the owner of the brain in question.
I was once a very staunched atheist. I am now agnostic.
footprints
Well-Known Member
LOL poor didums. Playing no talkies once more.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
footprints
Well-Known Member
LOL, there, there, things will get better for you. (Pats Mestemia on the head).
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Philosophers use metaphors all the time, MSizer, they also use allegories. Just take a look at some Plato for one example.
Last edited:
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
On a societal level...
It would lead to at less ignorance of godlessness, for sure. You'd hear allot less of those ignorant statements like, "atheist have no moral guidance" or "atheist can't use metaphors".
Hi footpritns,
Let me just clarify the definitions so that we have a clearer stance for understanding.
Spiritual Awakening - is the moment when spirituality arises in the consciousness of a person. It is mostly followed by a pursuit to gain a higher level of spirituality. A spiritual awakening.
Spiritual Enlightenment - is when a person, in pursuit of spirituality, achieves a deeper level of understanding and knowledge - an exposition to a higher truth enabling him to attain a higher level of spirituality.
For example, a man who had a spiritual awakening went to religion in pursuit of spirituality. However he was only able to find true Spiritual Enlightenment after he stepped out the confines of the limitations that his chosen religion placed upon him.
I think you are misconstruing spiritual enlightenment with religious enlightenment/experience as evident in the second paragraph of your reply as quoted above. There is a difference between the two.
In your first reply to my initial post in this thread you were also implying that one needs religion to be spiritual. This is of course untrue. Once can achieve spirituality without religion. This therefore propagates the chance to attain spiritual enlightenment without the need for religious guidance.
And please do not take this the wrong way, but the probability, based on your answers in this thread and your many other replies I have read in this forum, points to you being more of a religious crusader than an agnostic.
Peace and Love to you.
stiletto
Naughty But Nice
You strike me as being a little "dazed and confused"... are you trying to connect "Helter Skelter" by the Beatles to Lennon's "Imagine"?
linwood
Well-Known Member
Obviously you are indeed an ignorant waste of time.
You haven`t even read the source you cite.
LOL.
I`m done.
footprints
Well-Known Member
Pretty much, by those definitions of Spiritual Awakening/Spiritual Enlightenment, everybody who thinks is therefore enlightened. Which of course is not the case, albeit many will falsely believe they are, for their own intelligence will them this is so. Now don't get me wrong, give a thinking person perhaps 10 lifetimes, and put them in every position life has to offer and allow them to keep their memory from one lifetime to another, and they would stand a very good chance of becoming enlightened, when they put the good and the bad of all together, in their own mind, and find the solution of what is best for the all.
In scientific terms, an awakening is a new dendrite to synapse connection made in the brain, or a new association of relationship made if the connection is already made. In general terms the phrase, "When the penny finally drops," or, "Now I get it," and the person finally gets something, they couldn't grasp before, comes into play. The theist after mulling all the evidence of evolution, of fossil records, of the impossible scenarios of virgin births, of perceived lies and deceit of modern day clergy et al, finally makes the connection and says, "hey, this can't be for real." This is generally followed by a feeling of elation (which is really the chemical reaction to the new connection) and the person in question feels good about themselves.
In scientific terms, the enlightenment period, is a series of awakenings. Depending on the brain in question, and how much damage the environment has done to it, this may range from as few as 100 awakenings to get through the enightenment period, or it could go as high as 1000 or more. In the initial stages of the enlightenment period, awakenings will be fairly slow, perhaps one a week, or could even be years in-between. Toward the end, awakenings will come thick and fast, could be as many as 10 a day, or even in the space of an hour. The brain at this time will be alive, dendrites will grow wild in a state of exuberance, new associations of relationships will be made all over the place, as the brain in question learns to relate and associate single life events (experiences) in many different ways. What a person once believed right, can suddenly become wrong, depending on the perception of life, it is looked upon. Keeping in line with the original example of the theist who has an awakening and becomes an atheist, this would mean they could look back at theism and see that it is right as they look at things in different ways with the new associations made.
Enlightenment, isn't achieved, until such time as the enlightenment period is fully complete. If, as in the offered example, the theist who became an atheist, cannot look back at theism and see the good in it, and even turn the bad into good, the person should know, they are not enlightened. The same theist of course, who became an atheist, if they couldn't look back at atheism and see the good in it, and even turn the bad in it into good, the person should know, they are not enlightened. Enlightenment is the simple process of being able to look at life and all its experiences from every perception possible, and being able to say, Yes by that perception, that relationship of association, that is absolutely correct, and of course, looking at something which directly opposes it, and saying by that perception, that is correct also.
In order to reach the state of enlightenment as stated above, a person must push past the barrier of their own comfort zone. A big ask, for any intelligent brain, most of course will not be able to do it, for their own intelligence has already given them the answer they need, and they will falsely believe they are enlightened for it. The theist who has recently received an awakening, will have a big problem and issue, due to the own intelligence, they have just proven to themselves that religion is wrong, there is no way they are now going to say, religion is also right. Their own intelligence will be the thing which stops them from learning, unless of course, they push past the barrier of their own comfort zone.
Enlightenment of course, is not Spiritual Enlightenment, albeit to this stage, both are identical in procedure to reach this point and both will enlighten the spirit of the individual with the knowledge gained. Enlightenment to this point, is where we drop off modern day Taoism and some sects of Buddhism (zen Buddhism included). A classic example of an individual who reached this point, would be Master Sun, or Sun Tzu as he is more commonly known in western circles. Master Lao, or Lao Tzu, of course, went on to reach greater heights than the Sun Tzu ever could.
On the path to Spiritual enlightenment, Enlightenment is equivalent to reaching a black belt in a martial arts. You have the basics, now the real learning starts. Where enlightenment is concerned, many will never even reach this far. Enlightenment leaves a person with human intelligence, Spiritual Enlightenment turns human intelligence into Wisdom as the spirit of the human body, connects with the wisdom of the enlightened spirits which came before it and the universe as a whole. Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, Krishna, Biami, Muhammad, just to name a few. Like it or lump it, Spiritual enlightenment requires a religious connection, that is just an unfortunate fact, in the many facts of life.
Religion in itself is not a dirty word, albeit can be according to the mind that holds it. Religion is nothing more, nothing less in most cases, than an extension to a base root, ancient culture. Jesus for example, wasn't a Jew, Jesus was a Hebrew. So if you have a problem with the religious connection in your own mind, think of all these great teachers, Buddha, Jesus, Biami et al, as cultural figures belonging to a culture, for in base reality, that is what they really are.
LOL that you see me as a crusading religious evangelist, is something which stems from your own mind. As an agnostic, I can debate from many perspectives, I can just as easily change my position and debate from the atheist perspective if I so desired, then again, I could turn it completely around and debate solely from the theists side, or if I so wished debate from a deist, gnostic or pagan perspective. Generally I stick with the middle ground, which will cut straight across the atheists beief patterns as I try in vain to show them reason in their unreasonable position. If you read other threads, I have just as many theists calling me an idiot and telling me I am wrong as I do atheists. All of course is a matter of perspective, and there are reasons you see me as you do, which pertain to you, not really to me as any path of enlightenment will eventually explain to you.
Last edited:
footprints
Well-Known Member
Dazed and confused, delightful terms. Let me return the compliment.
Manson saw subliminal meanings in Lennons music, many see subliminal meanings and pretty pictures in Lennons "Imagine." That is the connection, basically speaking, it is an insanity born of person own imagination and what they want to personally make and create from it.
Imagine is a song, nothing more, nothing less, it has no meaning and paints no picture. In Lennons own words, clever words which go together, which makes (made) him lots of money. Which was of course, the real intent and purpose of the song, as Lennons own life testifies. Lennon couldn't even be as one, with his own son (Julian).
Last edited:
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Actually, it was Paul that wrote Helter Skelter. Manson was in jail long before Imagine was written.
footprints
Well-Known Member
LOL that is what I concluded of you a long time back, when you kept trying to give me the same garbage which supports your own personal view.
Like it or lump it, the facts are there, 80% of Swedes belong to a Christian religion. 7 out of 10 children in Sweden are Christened. 9 out of 10 Swedes have a Christian funeral. 5 out of 10 Swedes opt for a Christian Wedding. And this doesn't account for the Pagan or Islamic beliefs.
The thing I love about unreasonable posters like you, is that where Sweden et al are concerned, facts and figures mean this, yet when it comes to places like the United States, facts and figures mean that. Always twisting and turning facts and figures to suit your own belief patterns. You are worse than the theists who do the same with the bible.
footprints
Well-Known Member
I think you need to pass that message to stiletto.
And you are right, Manson was in goal before imagine was written. This though doesn't stop people from making subliminal connections to Lennons music, as stiletto has already shown.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
So, thus far, we have concluded that the countries with the highest proportion of atheists, also tend to have lower crime rates, higher literacy rates, are more likely to provide equal rights for homosexuals, and have lower teenage pregnancy rates.
Are there any other potential results from having more atheists?
Are there any other potential results from having more atheists?
stiletto
Naughty But Nice
Dazed and confused is a song title, but perhaps your not old enough to remember it.
Last edited:
stiletto
Naughty But Nice
Less guilt, less fear, less opression of minorities, more tolerance, more love, more rational thinking... "What a wonderful world it would be".