What church is the true church?

[Monotheist 101]

You're entitled to your opinion. No one's twisting your arm.

I don't know what you mean by "partners." It certainly sounds to me as if you think Muhammed was in partnership with God -- and Abraham, etc. So you must mean something different by that term than I usually think of when I use the term.

Neither am I trying to twist your arm ..rather trying to be open about my beliefs and understanding of Abrahamic religions..

By partner I mean a divine partner another God..an equal to God.

You need to understand Muslims regard all the messengers to be Human beings, of high spiritual status, due to the pureness of their souls..but we never consider any human being to be divine..including Jesus.

Again you take everything word for word as it has been passed down to you by your ancestors/teachers..

If I was in your shoes, I would stop wasting my time fighting over which english translation is correct or accurate and concentrate more on making time to dig up what remains of the Bible in its original Aramaic and Hebrew and try to translate or interpret it myself..I wouldnt place my trust blindly in a doctrine which with certainty has been edited thousands of times..

 

[sojourner]

IMO Jesus was prosecuted before he completed his message and prophecies as mentioned to the Jews.

That's clearly not what the gospels and epistles tell us.

Thus he kept saying that he has to return to his Father and he gave us news of a comfortor that will bring a light to guide us (Muhammad and the Quran), christians make up the concept of the Holy spirit.

I wouldn't say we "made it up." It's identified in the second chapter of Acts as God's Spirit.

what is this Holy spirit?

What is the ruach that makes us nephesh?

It again contradicts my understanding of the Oneness of God and his being seperate to his creation.

Perhaps God isn't altogether distinct from God's creation?

IMO your opinion is skewed because you take the partial truth which was revealed by Jesus

How could Jesus have been "partial?" Jesus is truth.

which was heavily influenced and changed by the Jews who were in power..bringing in the doctrines of the trinity ,original sin and atonement.

The Jews didn't introduce either the concept of original sin, or the Trinity.

It only makes sense how the trinity and these contradictory concepts are Jewish in origin

Only if you've watched too much television and buy into conspiracy theories.

 

[sojourner]

By partner I mean a divine partner another God..an equal to God.

God is One. I've never claimed anything different.

You need to understand Muslims regard all the messengers to be Human beings, of high spiritual status, due to the pureness of their souls..but we never consider any human being to be divine..including Jesus.

That's why you're not a Christian.

Again you take everything word for word as it has been passed down to you by your ancestors/teachers

No. I don't. At all. if that's what you think, you misunderstand me more than I thought.

If I was in your shoes, I would stop wasting my time fighting over which english translation is correct or accurate and concentrate more on making time to dig up what remains of the Bible in its original Aramaic and Hebrew

I don't fight over which translation is correct. There is no "original Aramaic." There is "original Greek." I don't understand what you mean by "what remains of the bible." We have several copies and fragments of very old manuscripts. There are possibly more, but probably no more ancient than we already have.

and try to translate or interpret it myself

That work has already been magnificently carried out, using the best scholarship available.

I wouldnt place my trust blindly in a doctrine which with certainty has been edited thousands of times

What doctrine is that?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Perhaps God isn't altogether distinct from God's creation?

This is the same panthiest theology that I have noticed is a core belief behind most major world religions bar a few..A few sects of the Muslim Mystics hold this belief aswell.

Clarification please...Are you saying the Holy spirit is our Soul? Im not big on Hebrew words..

IMO there would have been no need for Muhammad or his message if Jesus had completed his message and purpose in its entirety.

I guess you guys probably look at me in the same light as when I look at the Ahmadi Sect of Muslims ( who believe Jesus was born again in the form of some Indian dude and they take this guy to be a prophet), There is too much garbage mixed in with the truth nowadays.. I still believe that the Jews created what we know of Christianity today.. What exactly happened after Jesus' so called crucifixion? Who was Paul? Why and on whose command did he make up these concepts of Holy trinity, Atonement and Original Sin..How come Jesus never spoke of this..If he was God he would have surely known what was going to happen.. and should have warned his people in the clearest way possible..instead he chose to convey these concepts of dire importance through St Paul..who he had never met during his life....You should read "my Quran" once atleast like I have read your Bible..I believe that closing the door on something or someone will never bring me any good.. I have found alot of truths in your scripture..May be you will find the same in mine..(It is a difficult read, due to its unorganized nature in recalling accounts)

May God...the Lord in the Heavens
Bless us all who place our faith in him.

 

[Monotheist 101]

How can you say God is One....but there are three of them..The Father..Son..Holy Spirit.

God is not divisible..he is not a 100 dollar note that you can break into smaller denominations.

Let me ask you this..If Jesus is God and Mary is his biological mother.. or "Hail Mary, Mother of God"

First of all...wait a second..God has a Mom? Secondly, If Mary is the Mother of Jesus, that makes her a bigger God than Jesus..I mean to give birth to God it is only logical to expect the parent to be a Bigger God..what are your views on Mary..do you consider her divine..if yes why isnt she included in a trinity aswell and make it a 4? a big happy family..father mother son and the friendly Holy spirit

 

[sojourner]

This is the same panthiest theology that I have noticed is a core belief behind most major world religions bar a few..A few sects of the Muslim Mystics hold this belief aswell.

No, it isn't pantheistic at all. Closer to panentheism -- but really, not even that. Rather, the cosmos -- and all that is in it, contains God -- although not exclusively; reflects God, but does not provide a clear image, as the imago dei. The cosmos (as I see it) may be considered God's physical body (although God is greater than that "body"). But that's just me.

Clarification please...Are you saying the Holy spirit is our Soul? Im not big on Hebrew words.

In Genesis, God breathed (the Hebrew term is ruach -- which means both "breath" and "spirit") into the nostrils of humanity. It was at that point that humanity became nephesh (a "living being," as differentiated by the "non-living" beings around humanity -- rocks, trees, plants, birds, water, etc.). It is the presence of God's breath -- God's Spirit -- within us that differentiates us from the rest of creation, and uniquely qualifies us as nephesh -- living beings. It is the presence of ruachthat makes us the imago dei -- the image of God.

IMO there would have been no need for Muhammad or his message if Jesus had completed his message and purpose in its entirety.

That's precisely why I'm not a Muslim. Jesus represents the fullness of God's creation, so no more need for anything further.

I guess you guys probably look at me in the same light as when I look at the Ahmadi Sect of Muslims ( who believe Jesus was born again in the form of some Indian dude and they take this guy to be a prophet), There is too much garbage mixed in with the truth nowadays.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly don't look at you that way. You find truth in a certain theological and cultural context -- I find truth in a different context.

There's always garbage mixed in with the truth. It's always been that way, because we are human beings, and we're not allowed to see God face-to-face. We only see God's "backside."

I still believe that the Jews created what we know of Christianity today

Nah. That much can be archaeologically shown.

What exactly happened after Jesus' so called crucifixion?

Why does it particularly matter?

Who was Paul?

An apostle converted from Pharisaical Judaism.

Why and on whose command did he make up these concepts of Holy trinity, Atonement and Original Sin.

He didn't.

How come Jesus never spoke of this.

Jesus did speak of his divinity, and of reconciliation (atonement).

If he was God he would have surely known what was going to happen.

he probably had some idea.

and should have warned his people in the clearest way possible

What should he have warned them against?

instead he chose to convey these concepts of dire importance through St Paul..who he had never met during his life

What concepts are those? Why are they of "dire importance?"

 

[sojourner]

How can you say God is One....but there are three of them..The Father..Son..Holy Spirit.

God is not divisible..he is not a 100 dollar note that you can break into smaller denominations.

Let me ask you this..If Jesus is God and Mary is his biological mother.. or "Hail Mary, Mother of God"

First of all...wait a second..God has a Mom? Secondly, If Mary is the Mother of Jesus, that makes her a bigger God than Jesus..I mean to give birth to God it is only logical to expect the parent to be a Bigger God..what are your views on Mary..do you consider her divine..if yes why isnt she included in a trinity aswell and make it a 4? a big happy family..father mother son and the friendly Holy spirit

There aren't three of them. There is one of them. God is One -- available to us in Three distinct Persons.

 

[Monotheist 101]

There aren't three of them. There is one of them. God is One -- available to us in Three distinct Persons.

So God is divisible?

You never answered my question about the Mother of being regarded as a bigger God than Jesus?

I think your concept of the holy spirit sounds similar to that of the Soul..Although I dont understand, If the breath was that which gave us life..and similtaneously makes us better than all the other creations...what gave the rest of the creatures life? was it something other than Gods breath? I think the Spirit you talk of is the Soul.

How can this Holy Spirit come in the form of a light to guide us? And why would Jesus prophecize about this spirit..which has already been breathed into Human beings (we are already alive?) Or does this whole idea that ou presented above only apply after Jesus's coming?

As per you belief that God is part of the Universe..or rather is the Universe and everything in it...I couldnt disagree more..My understanding of the creator is that he has to disticntly different from his creation. If he was part of his creation that would mean he would have had to create himself?

 

[savagewind]

A man is at least three people. The private man, the working man and the social man. It is three men in one man. Perhaps The Trinity is like that.

 

[sojourner]

So God is divisible?

No. I just said: God is One.

You never answered my question about the Mother of being regarded as a bigger God than Jesus?

why would she be? Mary isn't Divine.

I think your concept of the holy spirit sounds similar to that of the Soul..Although I dont understand, If the breath was that which gave us life..and similtaneously makes us better than all the other creations...what gave the rest of the creatures life? was it something other than Gods breath? I think the Spirit you talk of is the Soul.

Not according to Genesis. Apparently, not all creatures have life in the same way that human beings have life.

How can this Holy Spirit come in the form of a light to guide us?

How can it come in the form of a dove? Or in the form of tongues of flame? How can it be manifest in human gifts?

And why would Jesus prophecize about this spirit..which has already been breathed into Human beings (we are already alive?)

Perhaps the Spirit comes in different ways at different times. Jesus said (concerning Spirit) that the wind blows where it will, and no one sees where it comes from, or where it goes.

As per you belief that God is part of the Universe..or rather is the Universe and everything in it...I couldnt disagree more.

That isn't what I said. Go back and read the post again.

My understanding of the creator is that he has to disticntly different from his creation. If he was part of his creation that would mean he would have had to create himself?

That's a difference between you and I, I suppose. But, if you read carefully, you'll find that I don't quite say "God is part of creation."

 

[Monotheist 101]

That's a difference between you and I, I suppose. But, if you read carefully, you'll find that I don't quite say "God is part of creation."

If God is Jesus..than he is a part of creation..(because this earth is part of creation and Jesus lived on earth)

how is that difficult to grasp..

I think our views of Monotheism differ greatly..IMO the second someone starts praying to or asking anyone for help except the Heavenly Father..they are not true monotheists..

The similarity between us is that we believe in a higher power and are from the house of Abraham...the difference is that I have tried to the best of my abilities to authenticate and trace which word is Gods true word..on my own because it is that important to me..I have not found a book as mysterious/intriguing/informative/poetic/unchanged as the Quran.. It is not a normal book..of stories told by men...The real difference is I refuse to take anyones word and have made this decision by making a neutral decision while distancing myself from my cultural or ancestral beliefs..I was actually leaning towards Buddhism..the only thing that I failed to agree with Buddha was..hey wait a second..life is not suffering..there is suffering in life...but you cant say all of life is just suffering..life is love and joy and so many good things.. My point being, we shouldnt take anyones advice or research as fact...we should evaluate and make an informed decision by looking at all the possibilities and candidates..it is our responsibility..this is not a simple issue that we discuss...

I am assuming you havent looked into alot of religions or read scriptures(from a neutral POV not a Christian POV) other than Bible...forgive me if I am wrong, judging by your earlier comments about the Quran, I deduced that you havent personally given it a shot...

do you honestly believe that, the gospels specially NT hasnt been changed or its meanings lost in translation?.

 

[Aamer]

Monotheism according to Websters dictionary

Main Entry:*mono·the·ism*Pronunciation:*\ˈmä-nə-(&#716thē-ˌi-zəm\Function:*nounDate: 1660:*the doctrine or belief that there is but one God

The second you bring in a partner or son to worship or multiple deities in one, it's no longer monotheism.

 

[sojourner]

If God is Jesus..than he is a part of creation..(because this earth is part of creation and Jesus lived on earth)

Creation is part of God. Jesus was begotten -- not created.

IMO the second someone starts praying to or asking anyone for help except the Heavenly Father..they are not true monotheists..

...unless, of course, they're praying to the Son, who is fully God, as the Father is fully God.

do you honestly believe that, the gospels specially NT hasnt been changed or its meanings lost in translation?.

I never claimed that they hadn't. That's a condition you've tried to foist on them. The gospel stories have obviously been edited, because that's the kind of writings they are.

I don't think the meanings have been "lost in translation." I think that some passages are a little fuzzy, or unclear, as to their meaning, since there are no English equivalents for some of the Greek terminology -- just as I'm equally sure that there are translational problem from Arabic to English.

 

[sojourner]

Monotheism according to Websters dictionary

Main Entry:*mono·the·ism*Pronunciation:*\ˈmä-nə-(&#716thē-ˌi-zəm\Function:*nounDate: 1660:*the doctrine or belief that there is but one God

The second you bring in a partner or son to worship or multiple deities in one, it's no longer monotheism.

Jesus isn't a "partner." Jesus is God. Since God is One, there aren't "multiple deities." There is One Deity -- God.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Creation is part of God. Jesus was begotten -- not created.

What is the real logical reason you believe Jesus was begotten? Dont say that what traditions in the form of NT have passed down to us...I mean what is so special about Jesus that you are sure God actually had a Son..the virgin birth?

 

[sojourner]

What is the real logical reason you believe Jesus was begotten? Dont say that what traditions in the form of NT have passed down to us...I mean what is so special about Jesus that you are sure God actually had a Son..the virgin birth?

What is the real logical reason you believe there is an invisible, all-powerful, Supreme Being, who created the cosmos, who desires the saccharin adoration of human beings, who becomes petulant if he doesn't get it, and is incensed if we choose to run around naked as he created us, making more of us without benefit of paperwork and governmental rubber-stamp?

Don't say what traditions in the form of the Quran have been passed down to us... I mean what is so evidential about Allah that you are absolutely sure Allah exists?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Jesus isn't a "partner." Jesus is God. Since God is One, there aren't "multiple deities." There is One Deity -- God.

So if you have a Son..you dont think he is seperate from you..do you believe he is a part of you even after he is born? I see a Father and son as two distinct intelligent entities.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Don't say what traditions in the form of the Quran have been passed down to us... I mean what is so evidential about Allah that you are absolutely sure Allah exists?

I am not arguing the existence of Jesus..I believe he was the last prophet sent to the Jewish people..If you think Allah and the Father are anything different than you have misunderstood me..I have faith in your Heavenly Father...who I call Allah..in Arabic or as mentioned in the Quran...You still havent looked into the Quran..it is quite different than the NT or the Hadith (traditions of Mohammad..stories by disciples about Mohammad)..I even refuse to look at the Hadith (traditions) for advice..the Quran to me is unlike anything I have ever come across..I am not Muslim because I was born into it..I gave every religion I got an honest chance without predetermined opinions about them..I refuse to take anyones advice...Be it a Priests interpretation of the Bible..or a Muslim Scholars interpretation of the Quran..I only take what makes sense to me..Although I dont refuse take lessons from any religious books or any other book for that matter..if I can take something good from it I take it...IMO Islam as defined by the Quran is the purest Monotheist religion on this earth at the moment..

 

[Aamer]

I am not arguing the existence of Jesus..I believe he was the last prophet sent to the Jewish people..If you think Allah and the Father are anything different than you have misunderstood me..I have faith in your Heavenly Father...who I call Allah..in Arabic or as mentioned in the Quran...You still havent looked into the Quran..it is quite different than the NT or the Hadith (traditions of Mohammad..stories by disciples about Mohammad)..I even refuse to look at the Hadith (traditions) for advice..the Quran to me is unlike anything I have ever come across..I am not Muslim because I was born into it..I gave every religion I got an honest chance without predetermined opinions about them..I refuse to take anyones advice...Be it a Priests interpretation of the Bible..or a Muslim Scholars interpretation of the Quran..I only take what makes sense to me..Although I dont refuse take lessons from any religious books or any other book for that matter..if I can take something good from it I take it...IMO Islam as defined by the Quran is the purest Monotheist religion on this earth at the moment..

God bless you brother. You speak the truth. There is no need to blindly follow scholars or read man made books when God gave the world HIS BOOK... HIS WORDS. Not "inspired" by God... Directly FROM GOD. Anyone who truthfully seeks the truth will put aside his opinion of "Muslims" & read GODS WORDS in the Quran. As for the rest, none of us can guide the blind. God bless the purity of your heart to seek the truth. Your words echo with me. Peace!

 

[McBell]

God bless you brother. You speak the truth. There is no need to blindly follow scholars or read man made books when God gave the world HIS BOOK... HIS WORDS. Not "inspired" by God... Directly FROM GOD. Anyone who truthfully seeks the truth will put aside his opinion of "Muslims" & read GODS WORDS in the Quran. As for the rest, none of us can guide the blind. God bless the purity of your heart to seek the truth. Your words echo with me. Peace!

So for you "Directly from God" means from God to Gabriel, from Gabriel to Mohammed, from Mohammed to his scribes who wrote it down?