What church is the true church?

[sojourner]

So if you have a Son..you dont think he is seperate from you..do you believe he is a part of you even after he is born? I see a Father and son as two distinct intelligent entities.

The Father and the Son are distinct Persons, but have the same Being. That Being is God.

 

[sojourner]

I am not arguing the existence of Jesus..I believe he was the last prophet sent to the Jewish people..If you think Allah and the Father are anything different than you have misunderstood me..I have faith in your Heavenly Father...who I call Allah..in Arabic or as mentioned in the Quran...You still havent looked into the Quran..it is quite different than the NT or the Hadith (traditions of Mohammad..stories by disciples about Mohammad)..I even refuse to look at the Hadith (traditions) for advice..the Quran to me is unlike anything I have ever come across..I am not Muslim because I was born into it..I gave every religion I got an honest chance without predetermined opinions about them..I refuse to take anyones advice...Be it a Priests interpretation of the Bible..or a Muslim Scholars interpretation of the Quran..I only take what makes sense to me..Although I dont refuse take lessons from any religious books or any other book for that matter..if I can take something good from it I take it...IMO Islam as defined by the Quran is the purest Monotheist religion on this earth at the moment..

All this^^ and you still managed to evade the question I asked you: Aside from the Quran, what logical evidence do you have that Allah exists, that he created the cosmos, that he desires our saccharin adoration?

And what do you give me? "Quran."

So, I'm going to conclude that you don't have logical evidence for God's existence.

 

[sojourner]

So for you "Directly from God" means from God to Gabriel, from Gabriel to Mohammed, from Mohammed to his scribes who wrote it down?

You forgot "from the scribes who wrote it down, to the people who translate it."

 

[Aamer]

You forgot "from the scribes who wrote it down, to the people who translate it."

Translate what? It still exists in the original Arabic. One version.

 

[Aamer]

So for you "Directly from God" means from God to Gabriel, from Gabriel to Mohammed, from Mohammed to his scribes who wrote it down?

The words are Gods. Sent to Muhammad through Gabriel. Apart from scribes writing it down, it was required of the Prophet and his followers to memorize them word for word. You do realize the Quran was sent down in poetry right? Highly advanced poetry.

 

[Me Myself]

All churchs are truly churchs

 

[sojourner]

Translate what? It still exists in the original Arabic. One version.

Yup. And non-Arabic speaking people still have to translate it into their own tongue.
Not everyone reads Arabic -- and even those who read Arabic, but for whom Arabic isn't their native language, translation still occurs in their heads. There simply is a human factor and a human lens. If it was simply "a God thing," there wouldn't be a book; God would simply impart it directly into one's head by osmosis.

 

[sojourner]

The words are Gods. Sent to Muhammad through Gabriel. Apart from scribes writing it down, it was required of the Prophet and his followers to memorize them word for word. You do realize the Quran was sent down in poetry right? Highly advanced poetry.

Poetry is a human -- not a divine -- construct. Human lens #1.

 

[McBell]

The words are Gods. Sent to Muhammad through Gabriel. Apart from scribes writing it down, it was required of the Prophet and his followers to memorize them word for word. You do realize the Quran was sent down in poetry right? Highly advanced poetry.

So then you agree that the Koran is not "directly" from god?

 

[Aamer]

Yup. And non-Arabic speaking people still have to translate it into their own tongue.
Not everyone reads Arabic -- and even those who read Arabic, but for whom Arabic isn't their native language, translation still occurs in their heads. There simply is a human factor and a human lens. If it was simply "a God thing," there wouldn't be a book; God would simply impart it directly into one's head by osmosis.

Of course it's translated into every language imaginable so people can understand. In this age of information, it's really easy to find the meaning of a particular Arabic word or compare translations. You can't manipulate Quran and get away with it.

 

[McBell]

You can't manipulate Quran and get away with it.

:biglaugh:

 

[sojourner]

Of course it's translated into every language imaginable so people can understand. In this age of information, it's really easy to find the meaning of a particular Arabic word or compare translations. You can't manipulate Quran and get away with it.

Extremists do it constantly...

 

[Monotheist 101]

All this^^ and you still managed to evade the question I asked you: Aside from the Quran, what logical evidence do you have that Allah exists, that he created the cosmos, that he desires our saccharin adoration?

And what do you give me? "Quran."

So, I'm going to conclude that you don't have logical evidence for God's existence.

There is no logical explanation..thus called having faith in something...same as yours what I meant to ask was what is the reason you choose to place faith in a divine Son..I mean if you placed your faith in Just the father wouldnt be just as good or better..cause hes the father..I dont know thats how I see it.. You have a right to believe whatver..same as mine..

 

[sojourner]

There is no logical explanation..thus called having faith in something...same as yours what I meant to ask was what is the reason you choose to place faith in a divine Son..I mean if you placed your faith in Just the father wouldnt be just as good or better..cause hes the father..I dont know thats how I see it.. You have a right to believe whatver..same as mine..

This:

What is the real logical reason you believe Jesus was begotten? Dont say that what traditions in the form of NT have passed down to us...I mean what is so special about Jesus that you are sure God actually had a Son..the virgin birth?

is not saying the same thing as:

what I meant to ask was what is the reason you choose to place faith in a divine Son

There is no logical explanation for my belief in the Trinity -- just as there's no logical explanation for your belief. To answer what I now believe to be your question:

No. It's not just as good to believe in "just the Father." That places God in a wholly transcendent position from humanity, meaning that reconciliation with God is only a hoped-for dream, not a present and real possibility. To believe God is also immanent as the Son -- and available to us in our interior life as the Holy Spirit, is to imbue humanity with the reality of God With Us. Reconciliation has been initiated by God in becoming Incarnate.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Yup. And non-Arabic speaking people still have to translate it into their own tongue.
Not everyone reads Arabic -- and even those who read Arabic, but for whom Arabic isn't their native language, translation still occurs in their heads. There simply is a human factor and a human lens. If it was simply "a God thing," there wouldn't be a book; God would simply impart it directly into one's head by osmosis.

Arabic is not my native tongue..yet I have managed to memorize 15% the Quran in it..due to using it as part of my prayer..5 times a day...I donot understand it yet it calms my heart no translation in my head just the gist of the outer meaning and that God is One...I have read it in english and refer to it every day..I contrast different translations to see if the meaning is retained...sometimes I read it like a story book..sometimes I try to look for a deeper meaning...I realize that is not possible without learning Quranic Arabic..I am willing to take a break from life in 5 years after Ive made a bunch of money and been working as a CPA and bought a house ...But I will with the help of God go to Madina the prophets city in Saudi Arabia when I am 28 and try and learn the arabic of the Quran at Madina University(Not what the Arabs speak today) so I can truly understand Gods word...I am not Arab...I have seen alot of horrible things about Saudis on T.V IMO they are not good representatives of Islam..and looking into their history have occupied the land comparatively quite recently...but the point is I am not going there for them..for how dirty or inhumane they seem to be...I am going there to learn and get closer to my creator..so what if the Quran was revealed to Muhammad an Arab or in Arabic...it still remains Gods word regardless in my eyes..their is something truly magical about the Quran and I say this having looked into the Occult..

You still fail to see the meaning of my post..what I am saying is you and I have both chosen to place faith in a higher being...that does not mean we fail using further logic and blindly follow what is said... I have looked into Christianity by myself without anyones help..it is clear to me how the Jews (both Christians and Jews because Jesus was Jewish) and Muslims are infact brothers...we are from the the seed of Abraham...

Ishmael in Genesis

וַיֵּרַע הַדָּבָר מְאֹד, בְּעֵינֵי אַבְרָהָם, עַל, אוֹדֹת בְּנוֹ. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight on account of his son. יב וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל-אַבְרָהָם, אַל-יֵרַע בְּעֵינֶיךָ עַל-הַנַּעַר וְעַל-אֲמָתֶךָ--כֹּל אֲשֶׁר תֹּאמַר אֵלֶיךָ שָׂרָה, שְׁמַע בְּקֹלָהּ: כִּי בְיִצְחָק, יִקָּרֵא לְךָ זָרַע. 12 And God said unto Abraham: 'Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall seed be called to thee. יג וְגַם אֶת-בֶּן-הָאָמָה, לְגוֹי אֲשִׂימֶנּוּ: כִּי זַרְעֲךָ, הוּא. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.' יד וַיַּשְׁכֵּם אַבְרָהָם בַּבֹּקֶר וַיִּקַּח-לֶחֶם וְחֵמַת מַיִם וַיִּתֵּן אֶל-הָגָר שָׂם עַל-שִׁכְמָהּ, וְאֶת-הַיֶּלֶד--וַיְשַׁלְּחֶהָ; וַתֵּלֶךְ וַתֵּתַע, בְּמִדְבַּר בְּאֵר שָׁבַע. 14 And Abraham arose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away; and she departed, and strayed in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. טו וַיִּכְלוּ הַמַּיִם, מִן-הַחֵמֶת; וַתַּשְׁלֵךְ אֶת-הַיֶּלֶד, תַּחַת אַחַד הַשִּׂיחִם. 15 And the water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. טז וַתֵּלֶךְ וַתֵּשֶׁב לָהּ מִנֶּגֶד, הַרְחֵק כִּמְטַחֲוֵי קֶשֶׁת, כִּי אָמְרָה, אַל-אֶרְאֶה בְּמוֹת הַיָּלֶד; וַתֵּשֶׁב מִנֶּגֶד, וַתִּשָּׂא אֶת-קֹלָהּ וַתֵּבְךְּ. 16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow-shot; for she said: 'Let me not look upon the death of the child.' And she sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept. יז וַיִּשְׁמַע אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-קוֹל הַנַּעַר, וַיִּקְרָא מַלְאַךְ אֱלֹהִים אֶל-הָגָר מִן-הַשָּׁמַיִם, וַיֹּאמֶר לָהּ מַה-לָּךְ הָגָר; אַל-תִּירְאִי, כִּי-שָׁמַע אֱלֹהִים אֶל-קוֹל הַנַּעַר בַּאֲשֶׁר הוּא-שָׁם. 17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her: 'What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. יח קוּמִי שְׂאִי אֶת-הַנַּעַר, וְהַחֲזִיקִי אֶת-יָדֵךְ בּוֹ: כִּי-לְגוֹי גָּדוֹל, אֲשִׂימֶנּוּ. 18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast by thy hand; for I will make him a great nation.'


Isaac offered for Sacrifice and Abrahams Covenant in Genesis:

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


The Bible relates that both Isaac and Ishmaels seed will be made into great nations and Abrahams descendants will be as numerous as the stars...And indeed we are bro..the difference between you and I is that I choose to look at all the options before I completely blindly put my faith in something...I dont care if my dad hate arabs or my Mom wont talk to me..It has to make sense..it is important that we look at a problem from different angles before making a decision..specially a question of such importance..


You and I still differ on our understanding of what one is...:cover:

 

[cataway]

am...





You and I still differ on our understanding of what one is...:cover:

not me . i know what one is.

 

[Monotheist 101]

not me . i know what one is.

I didnt address that at you..but good to know you understand what one is.. Good for you..WELL DONE

 

[Monotheist 101]

not me . i know what one is.

Jehovahs witnessess are few of the Christian demonations which represent Monotheism properly IMO..and thus according to the Quran might be considered believers (not by brainwashed mainstream Muslims tho..who like nothing better than pointing fingers and condemning people to hell)..The Quran defines believer as a person who has faith in One God..nothing more nothing less..It mentions Gods wrath against the disbelievers..but doesn't give us Humans the right to decide who is labelled a believer or disbeliever..but faith in One God is a common indicator..

The Quran mentions that Jesus's disciples were righteous...and were victorious over their oppressors..This leaves the door open for alot of Christians who dont believe in a trinity to be considered believers/Muslims/those who follow Islam/those who follow Abraham...

 

[cataway]

the bible is in fact so clear that Jesus is not God .

 

[Obsrvr]

The best church is the church of being true to oneself and doing no harm. You don't need a church to be spiritually pure.

All organized religion has done is create unnecessary strife between people who might otherwise have gotten along just fine.

Imagine how peaceful life would be without everyone arguing which religion is "right".