What church is the true church?

[sojourner]

Arabic is not my native tongue..yet I have managed to memorize 15% the Quran in it..due to using it as part of my prayer..5 times a day...I donot understand it yet it calms my heart no translation in my head just the gist of the outer meaning and that God is One.

Reciting syllables that are not completely apprehended is, indeed a form of prayer, or holy reading, that is considered to be useful as a spiritual discipline. But holy reading does not form the basis for for theological construction. Theological construction comes, not from repeating "GodisoneGodisoneGodisone," and understanding "that's what the Quran says." Theological construction comes from understanding as thoroughly as possible what the text says about God's Oneness, how it is apprehended by humans, what implications it has for our existence and our self-understanding, why it makes a difference to our spiritual well-being, and how it informs our world view. Further, at least for Christianity, what the text says must be contexualized in the larger world of religious Tradition -- for the text is only part of Tradition.

That's why the Trinity works for me. I have come to and understanding of what the texts say about God's nature, and how that impacts me and my world view, in conjunction with what the community asserts as true.

I have looked into Christianity by myself without anyones help

IMO, this is where you failed (since you completely fail to see any merit in Trinitarian expression). Xy is most decidedly not an individual endeavor. It takes a community. Perhaps you needed a different perspective. One does not "look into Christianity" from the outside. One participates in Christianity by entering fully into community with the body of believers.

the difference between you and I is that I choose to look at all the options before I completely blindly put my faith in something

First of all, you don't know me well enough to make that determination that I have "blindly put my faith in something." I certainly have not done that. I have been through a process of questioning and discernment that has probably been carried out for longer than you have been alive.
Second, it appears that you are the one "blindly accepting" what something says, since you memorize what you admit you do not understand (unless I misunderstood your statement above).

 

[sojourner]

Jehovahs witnessess are few of the Christian demonations which represent Monotheism properly IMO..and thus according to the Quran might be considered believers (not by brainwashed mainstream Muslims tho..who like nothing better than pointing fingers and condemning people to hell)..The Quran defines believer as a person who has faith in One God..nothing more nothing less..It mentions Gods wrath against the disbelievers..but doesn't give us Humans the right to decide who is labelled a believer or disbeliever..but faith in One God is a common indicator..

The Quran mentions that Jesus's disciples were righteous...and were victorious over their oppressors..This leaves the door open for alot of Christians who dont believe in a trinity to be considered believers/Muslims/those who follow Islam/those who follow Abraham...

Trinitarians also have faith in one God. Every Sunday (and every weekday, for the most pious) affirm "I (we) believe in One God..." nothing more, nothing less.

Christians don't follow Abraham. We follow Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

the bible is in fact so clear that Jesus is not God .

No it isn't, since the Trinitarian formula is, in fact, based upon scripture.

 

[sojourner]

The best church is the church of being true to oneself and doing no harm. You don't need a church to be spiritually pure.

All organized religion has done is create unnecessary strife between people who might otherwise have gotten along just fine.

Imagine how peaceful life would be without everyone arguing which religion is "right".

I disagree. "Church" is derived from the Greek ekklesia, meaning "assembly." Jesus formed ekklesia for a reason: Love cannot exist except in relationship, which, by definition, includes more than "oneself." Since all commandments are encapsulated in "love God/love neighbor," Christianity can only be adequately expressed within the context of others.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Trinitarians also have faith in one God. Every Sunday (and every weekday, for the most pious) affirm "I (we) believe in One God..." nothing more, nothing less.

Christians don't follow Abraham. We follow Jesus.

Anyone one who has faith in One God (this excludes the trinity)...follows Abraham.

In reality One cannot be three...and three cannot be One..

 

[Monotheist 101]

the bible is in fact so clear that Jesus is not God .

Please can you provide some clear references.. May God Bless you for saying the above...If you reject the trinity and Jesus as God...I think we might be quite similar..You only place your faith in Yahweh..me too..I just call him Allah..

Cheers will be waiting on those references...

EDIT: I think the concept of an intercessor or mediator between God and Humans..would be the main difference...I have looked into the concept of Shirk (deviating from Islamic Monotheism) quite deeply..I think the core teachings of the Quran.. do not permit an intercessor...God is mentioned as being closer than our jugular vein..thus not far enough to require someone else to convey our messages..
What is the concept of enlightenment in JW? do you mind if we start another thread and discuss?

 

[Monotheist 101]

it appears that you are the one "blindly accepting" what something says, since you memorize what you admit you do not understand (unless I misunderstood your statement above)

Yes you have..I read this almost all the time in Arabic..I like it so much..
(Nas, Protection from whispers (both exterior and interior))
Say, “I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind, [1] the King of mankind, [2] the God of mankind, [3] from the evil of the whisperer who withdraws (when Allah's name is pronounced), [4] the one who whispers in the hearts of people, [5] whether from among the Jinn or Mankind.” [6]
(Fallaq protection from Magic, Outwardly Harm)
Say, “I seek refuge with the Lord of the daybreak [1] from the evil of everything He has created, [2] and from the evil of the dark night when it penetrates, [3] and from the evil of the women who blow on the knots, [4] and from the evil of an envier when he envies. “[5]
These verses are quite powerful..I have tested them out..

What is Christianities concept of the Jinn/Spirits?
And its understanding of Magick/Sorcery..what it is and how its done..why it is considered a great Sin?

I think we might be way off topic tho...you mind if we create a thread and discuss the above?..I would like to gain insight into Christianities understanding of these concepts and the story of Lucifer...

 

[sojourner]

Anyone one who has faith in One God (this excludes the trinity)...follows Abraham.

In reality One cannot be three...and three cannot be One..

Then we would be "Abrahamanites." But we are not. We are Christians.

Three certainly can be one!
What is "three?" it's a number -- not three numbers. It is a quantity -- not several quantities. That one number -- that one quantity, though, entails three particularities, each of which is, in essence, "three," since they stand together as that particular quantity.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Three certainly can be one!
What is "three?" it's a number -- not three numbers. It is a quantity -- not several quantities. That one number -- that one quantity, though, entails three particularities, each of which is, in essence, "three," since they stand together as that particular quantity.

The Number three can be divided into smaller whole numbers tho..You should have used one raised to the power three... ...which is one..

Eitherway...If you believe that you have faith in One God..than good on you...

 

[cataway]

The best church is the church of being true to oneself and doing no harm. You don't need a church to be spiritually pure.

All organized religion has done is create unnecessary strife between people who might otherwise have gotten along just fine.

Imagine how peaceful life would be without everyone arguing which religion is "right".

religion has also backed more wars than any one could want to imagine. to be really fair its false religion thats doing the bad. if one were truly Christian then war would not even be thought of.

 

[cataway]

Trinitarians also have faith in one God. Every Sunday (and every weekday, for the most pious) affirm "I (we) believe in One God..." nothing more, nothing less.

Christians don't follow Abraham. We follow Jesus.

ahh, but who did Jesus say to worship ?

 

[cataway]

No it isn't, since the Trinitarian formula is, in fact, based upon scripture.

11 “Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are

if ''they'' was to be just as ''we'' .then you have some explaining to do

 

[cataway]

Anyone one who has faith in One God (this excludes the trinity)...follows Abraham.

In reality One cannot be three...and three cannot be One..

but two or even twelve can be in agreement.
11 “Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are

 

[cataway]

Please can you provide some clear references.. May God Bless you for saying the above...If you reject the trinity and Jesus as God...I think we might be quite similar..You only place your faith in Yahweh..me too..I just call him Allah..

Cheers will be waiting on those references...

EDIT: I think the concept of an intercessor or mediator between God and Humans..would be the main difference...I have looked into the concept of Shirk (deviating from Islamic Monotheism) quite deeply..I think the core teachings of the Quran.. do not permit an intercessor...God is mentioned as being closer than our jugular vein..thus not far enough to require someone else to convey our messages..
What is the concept of enlightenment in JW? do you mind if we start another thread and discuss?

let me please get back to you ,there are so many it takes some time to get them all together

 

[cataway]

Then we would be "Abrahamanites." But we are not. We are Christians.

Three certainly can be one!
What is "three?" it's a number -- not three numbers. It is a quantity -- not several quantities. That one number -- that one quantity, though, entails three particularities, each of which is, in essence, "three," since they stand together as that particular quantity.

in the Trinity the three are known to be equal. yet Jesus and the holly spirit are clearly displayed as subordinate = serving God

 

[sojourner]

The Number three can be divided into smaller whole numbers tho..You should have used one raised to the power three... ...which is one..

Eitherway...If you believe that you have faith in One God..than good on you...

Oh, you mean like the Father is a whole Person, the Son is a whole Person, etc. Yet, when the quantity is broken down, you no longer have a quantity. You only have a bunch of singularities. Quantity is the essence of God. Quantity is community. God is community, because God is love, and love is only expressed in relationship (or quantity). And each of the singularities within the quantity is also the quantity. Each of the "ones" is also "threeness," because there's a relationship that defines at the most basic level, how each of the singularities has its existence. Think of it this way: 3 is more than simply 1+1+1. It's also 2+1. It's also 1.5x1.5, etc, ad infinitum, since there are an infinite number of fractions that can be added or multiplied (or even subtracted and divided) to = "3." The defining characteristic is 3, for all of the possible constituents -- not matter what they are. Each constituent exists "in threeness," because that's how, in the concept of "3," each constituent has its existential context. 1 is not simply "1" anymore, because it has a fundamental relationship with other integers or fractions, in order to express "3." "3" is more than simply "an integer," because it, by definition, is a quantity. Therefore, each constituent of that quantity is more than just a "singularity," since it exists in quantity. The Father expresses "God." The Son expresses "God." the Spirit expresses "God." Because there is a fundamental relationship of contextual quantity between them.

 

[sojourner]

ahh, but who did Jesus say to worship ?

Certainly not Abraham!

 

[sojourner]

11 “Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are

if ''they'' was to be just as ''we'' .then you have some explaining to do

How so? We are the Body of Christ, so we are one, because we are defined by the community -- just as the three Persons of the Trinity are defined by the community in which they have their existence.

 

[sojourner]

but two or even twelve can be in agreement.
11 “Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are

"Agreement" is the same sort of quantification as the Trinity.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Oh, you mean like the Father is a whole Person, the Son is a whole Person, etc. Yet, when the quantity is broken down, you no longer have a quantity. You only have a bunch of singularities. Quantity is the essence of God. Quantity is community. God is community, because God is love, and love is only expressed in relationship (or quantity). And each of the singularities within the quantity is also the quantity. Each of the "ones" is also "threeness," because there's a relationship that defines at the most basic level, how each of the singularities has its existence. Think of it this way: 3 is more than simply 1+1+1. It's also 2+1. It's also 1.5x1.5, etc, ad infinitum, since there are an infinite number of fractions that can be added or multiplied (or even subtracted and divided) to = "3." The defining characteristic is 3, for all of the possible constituents -- not matter what they are. Each constituent exists "in threeness," because that's how, in the concept of "3," each constituent has its existential context. 1 is not simply "1" anymore, because it has a fundamental relationship with other integers or fractions, in order to express "3." "3" is more than simply "an integer," because it, by definition, is a quantity. Therefore, each constituent of that quantity is more than just a "singularity," since it exists in quantity. The Father expresses "God." The Son expresses "God." the Spirit expresses "God." Because there is a fundamental relationship of contextual quantity between them.

I still fail to see how expressing just The Father/Yahweh will not be considered a purer form of monotheism in contrast to "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", Why break God down to little parts..if you were to do that than there are soo many more pieces(attributes/qualities) that can be regarded as one...

So no God is not available to us in 3..he is available to us in infinity...But he is One..